Ioannes look at this verse: "Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in."
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this about the Orthodox Church?
But it also says:
"O Most Upright, You weigh the path of the just."
If this isn't proof that God's weighting of the path of the just is what matters and not our thoughts than I don't know what is.
Ioannes I also disagree with you on Nestorians being closer to us than Protestants. There are different types of heresy, but the worst types are those against the Divinity of Christ. I also don't believe that the beliefs of a church mean that is what the person does. For example there are many Protestants that have faith and works. I have to go but I'll expand on my post later.
Anba, it is best not to speak so boldly on protestantism. You criticized me for generalizing and then you do the exact same thing to prove the opposite point. The only two doctrines protestants have in common are sola fide and sola scriptura, some of them DO believe in works and somehow justify sola fide at the same time.
I have no idea what point you are trying to prove with those two verses. And I am sure you know what I mean when I say nestorianism is closer to us, virtually everything is the same besides their belief in Christ, and they do believe Christ is God, it is His nature not divinity. I have no time to bicker back and forth over our ideas on what is Christian. You believe anyone and their mother, or so it seems, can be Christian just by stating so, while I believe this is contrary to the church fathers, our history, doctrine, and beliefs. Believe what you want, it does not make you right, especially when it conflicts with what I just listed above.
Ioannes, I was not criticizing you and I am not defending any heresy, God forbid. I am just more inclined towards moderation, i.e. if many of the protestants were ill informed or were raised in an ill informed environment we can assume that many would have very good intentions.
I was thinking may be we would better explain things to them in a peaceful and friendly way to gain their interest and their trust, I believe they are not all total hopeless cases. If a protestant is attacking Orthodoxy we'd all feel targeted (though he's not attacking us as persons) but if someone is willing to discuss things peacefully without some hidden agenda we should accept that for her/his benefit and even use his logic (sola scriptura for ex.), i.e. use the Bible. Later on to also use the sayings of the Fathers.
That's what I've meant to discuss. I am sorry if this appeared to be criticizing.
I don't mean that anyone is a christian, but rather that there are some protestants unaware of the problems in protestantism, but that live their lives entirely for Christ and love him with all they have. I've had a quite a few friends like this and often times, I know that if they were to know the beauty of Orthodoxy, they'd instantly ask to learn more, and that they have pure intentions. Unfortunately there are many who aren't in this situation, and God is the only one that can discern whether they're christian. For example those that mislead people and if were shown Orthodoxy in its fullness and the beauty of it would still reject it.
I think this is a case of, just as John_S2000 said, people who are raised in an ill informed environment, and if they were to be shown they'd instantly want to know more, and want to know more about Orthodoxy. I don't defend Protestantism, just as I don't defend Arianism or Nestorianism.
Once again forgive me if I've upset you with my ignorance. I was just saying my viewpoint, which isn't perfect at all. I think it is best to pray about this subject that God reveals the truth. I ask that anyone reading this post pray that God reveal the truth, so that whoever is in error doesn't stay in error.
I thank you all in advance, and ask that anyone who is upset with anything I said forgive me for the sake of Christ.
Well this goes contrary to the creed we say every day, and the words of Christ Himself. Have faith in God that he brings those willing to the Orthodox church, the ONE church.
Once again please, forgive me. I only wish to undrstand this subject. I keep thinking about this whole Protestants being Christian topic, and only get more confused. I think that in this situation, as I am unsure it is best to stay silent. I used to speak many false things because I didn't stay silent when I wasn't sure about something. Until then I will pray that God will reveal, and if the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, than by the Grace of God the little faith I have can reveal the truth.
Anba, I love you very dearly and I truly enjoy our discussions here. I know this subject upsets people very much and I dont mean to come off as judgmental. Ultimately God decides what is and what is not, with that being said I must do what I know and that is to defend the faith to the best of my ability and knowledge. This happens to be one of the few subjects I do know a bit about, although I do not know all. I am not advocating that we tell everyone that only Orthodox are Christians, even though it is true in my opinion it is not a good thing to tell people as it would clearly turn them off to Orthodoxy.
I do love you very much and thank you for your prayers. I am seeing things in a different light the last day or two, in the sense of how I deal with people and how I speak with them. Because my moods shift so often and sometimes so violently I dont often get a chance to just be. This is the first time I can recall actually feeling the love of God and wanting that to radiate from me. Now hopefully I can take my views and make them easier for people to grasp as opposed to being so in your face about it. I have actually turned away from debates, I never do that, but for some reason it just makes me sick to even think about it, especially if there is no reason.
Comments
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this about the Orthodox Church?
But it also says:
"O Most Upright, You weigh the path of the just."
If this isn't proof that God's weighting of the path of the just is what matters and not our thoughts than I don't know what is.
Ioannes I also disagree with you on Nestorians being closer to us than Protestants. There are different types of heresy, but the worst types are those against the Divinity of Christ. I also don't believe that the beliefs of a church mean that is what the person does. For example there are many Protestants that have faith and works. I have to go but I'll expand on my post later.
I have no idea what point you are trying to prove with those two verses. And I am sure you know what I mean when I say nestorianism is closer to us, virtually everything is the same besides their belief in Christ, and they do believe Christ is God, it is His nature not divinity. I have no time to bicker back and forth over our ideas on what is Christian. You believe anyone and their mother, or so it seems, can be Christian just by stating so, while I believe this is contrary to the church fathers, our history, doctrine, and beliefs. Believe what you want, it does not make you right, especially when it conflicts with what I just listed above.
I was thinking may be we would better explain things to them in a peaceful and friendly way to gain their interest and their trust, I believe they are not all total hopeless cases. If a protestant is attacking Orthodoxy we'd all feel targeted (though he's not attacking us as persons) but if someone is willing to discuss things peacefully without some hidden agenda we should accept that for her/his benefit and even use his logic (sola scriptura for ex.), i.e. use the Bible. Later on to also use the sayings of the Fathers.
That's what I've meant to discuss. I am sorry if this appeared to be criticizing.
GBU
I don't mean that anyone is a christian, but rather that there are some protestants unaware of the problems in protestantism, but that live their lives entirely for Christ and love him with all they have. I've had a quite a few friends like this and often times, I know that if they were to know the beauty of Orthodoxy, they'd instantly ask to learn more, and that they have pure intentions. Unfortunately there are many who aren't in this situation, and God is the only one that can discern whether they're christian. For example those that mislead people and if were shown Orthodoxy in its fullness and the beauty of it would still reject it.
I think this is a case of, just as John_S2000 said, people who are raised in an ill informed environment, and if they were to be shown they'd instantly want to know more, and want to know more about Orthodoxy. I don't defend Protestantism, just as I don't defend Arianism or Nestorianism.
Once again forgive me if I've upset you with my ignorance. I was just saying my viewpoint, which isn't perfect at all. I think it is best to pray about this subject that God reveals the truth. I ask that anyone reading this post pray that God reveal the truth, so that whoever is in error doesn't stay in error.
I thank you all in advance, and ask that anyone who is upset with anything I said forgive me for the sake of Christ.
Once again please, forgive me. I only wish to undrstand this subject. I keep thinking about this whole Protestants being Christian topic, and only get more confused. I think that in this situation, as I am unsure it is best to stay silent. I used to speak many false things because I didn't stay silent when I wasn't sure about something. Until then I will pray that God will reveal, and if the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, than by the Grace of God the little faith I have can reveal the truth.
I do love you very much and thank you for your prayers. I am seeing things in a different light the last day or two, in the sense of how I deal with people and how I speak with them. Because my moods shift so often and sometimes so violently I dont often get a chance to just be. This is the first time I can recall actually feeling the love of God and wanting that to radiate from me. Now hopefully I can take my views and make them easier for people to grasp as opposed to being so in your face about it. I have actually turned away from debates, I never do that, but for some reason it just makes me sick to even think about it, especially if there is no reason.