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The God Paradox
what is the Coptic Orthodox Response to the God Paradox http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_paradox
Comments
It is not true that God can do all things. He can only do those things which are consistent with his divine nature and being. It is only a paradox if we accept the false premise that God can do anything.
Father Peter
A "mountain too heavy to lift"? too heavy for whom? if its by our standards and definitions, then yes its too heavy for us, but for the creator, nothing is "too difficult, heavy,impossible..." because he created it.
As for the philosophical use of words to say " If He cannot make such a mountain, there is something which He cannot do: He cannot make the mountain." is putting a limitation on God and His abilities.
I remember Pope Shenouda once said "while all the high rank, important people figure out how to word everything perfectly about God and His divinity, all the simple people are going to race them to the finish line and get into heaven first"
let's not get too wrapped up into philosophical questions and forget the importance of our faith.
Like he can do al things, but he chooses to do only the ones that fit in with his will right??
i like the quote of pope shenouda in omelnour's post, you see, we can waste a lot of time discussing it, when we could focus on our salvation and that of others.
as father peter said, God does things consistent with His divine nature, like saving us.
i would rather run into God's arms, accepting that He is beyond my ability to describe Him, than to sit a long way off, playing with words.
;)
Who says God can do all things, except people who come up with these human philosophical 'paradoxes'.
God cannot do evil. He cannot cease to exist. He cannot cease to be a Trinity. There are a whole load of things he cannot do which are all associated with his being and essence.
Of course, in relation to the OP, God cannot create a mountain too great for him to lift. In the first place he does not have arms, and so the question is defective, and in the second place being unable to place a limit on his own divine being is not a limitation on God but is an expression of his absolute freedom. He is absolutely free to be God, to be Himself. To cease to be Himself is therefore NOT a freedom or an expression of God's unconstrained ability.
There is no paradox. The question is based on false premises.
Father Peter
since He is God...He can do whatever... because He has the power...
but i see what you are saying. =]
Thanks
that's the funny thing, we think we can understand God, but we will never be able to!
we will never limit the unlimited... or comprehend the uncompromisable!
neshkor Allah, akhadna el baraka!
As to the question about the mountain, this shows that those who pose the question, and it is an old one, do not understand God at all. Of course there is no mountain which is heavier than God can lift. He is not an old man with a white beard, He is the one who maintains the whole universe in being by His will. What does heaviness have to do with God? God is spirit. He does not have arms and legs and muscles.
OP means 'original post'.
Father Peter
we all know he moved that mountain in egypt (was it mount motakam?), and no doubt others as well :)
5. God is Omnipotent:
God said to Moses the Prophet, “I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty…” (Ex 6:3), and the Nicene Creed says, “Truly we believe in One God, God the Father the Almighty.” The belief in an “Almighty” or Omnipotent God is thus an essential element of the Orthodox Christian faith. But what does it mean to speak of God being “Omnipotent”? The simple commonsense answer is to say that God can do anything.
Can God create a stone that is too heavy to lift?
If God cannot create such a stone, the idea of total Divine Omnipotence would seem to be denied. Yet if God could create such a stone, then there is something else which God cannot do – namely, lift that stone. And so, again, God turns out not to be Omnipotent.
The belief in Divine Omnipotence means that God is able to do anything that does not involve
obvious contradiction. For example, God cannot make a square circle or a round triangle, which is a logical self-contradiction.
Once God has opted to do certain things or to act in a certain manner, then other possibilities are excluded. For example, if you say, “God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it”, you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless and empty combinations of words do not suddenly acquire a meaning because we prefix to them the two other words; “God can”. It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but non-entities. Then, God cannot do anything that is logically impossible. God cannot do anything that is inconsistent with His Divine Nature and Character. For instance, to sin is to fall short of a perfect state. Hence, to be able to sin is to be able to be deficient, which cannot be reconciled with Divine Omnipotence. It is because God is Omnipotent that He cannot sin.
• “He [God] cannot deny Himself” (2 Tim 2:13)
• “It is impossible for God to lie” (Heb 6:18)
• “God cannot be tempted by evil” (Jam 1:13)
Pray for weakness.
I think you have misunderstood me? I have not said that there are things which God cannot do, or that he would cease to be God if he could not do them. Quite the contrary.
The Scriptures teach us that there are things which God cannot do. Those things which would deny his divine nature are not possible for him.
The previous post from the suscopts site lists some of the things Scripture teaches us that God cannot do.
God cannot create a mountain which is too great for him to lift because whoever poses the question as a possibility has a false idea of God. God is not limited by the creation, nor part of it. As you have said, to ask if God can create a mountain that is too great for him to lift is irrational. It is not a meaningful question.
If the whole universe were one mountain of course God could lift it. He holds the whole universe in being at every moment. To say that this limits God, because he cannot create a mountain too big for him to lift, is to misunderstand the relation of God and creation. Which is what I think the author of this supposed paradox does.
Father Peter
pray for my weakness
We are separated from God in our sin, but that does not mean that our very beings are not held together by the constant loving presence of God. The whole universe is held together in its entirety and in every atom by the will and word of God. If he ceases to speak it into being then it would cease to exist. This is so for the angelic beings, and for Hell.
Sin is not a thing, therefore it does not exist as a substance. It is the exercise of the human will for self and not for God. God created the possibility that man might sin, but it is we ourselves who sin.
I am not sure why there is such an issue about whether or not God is limited? Why is this a problem? God is naturally limited by his own nature, but he is not constrained by any external force. God is not limited by our sin, he could easily do whatever he wants, but he has chosen to allow our sin to work itself out so that he might save us by becoming one of us in love rather than by an act of power against our will. When Adam and Eve sinned they did not destroy God's plan, because he had already made provision for this very eventuality.
Father Peter
How is it that the one who said "I am...the life" died and went to Hades?
How is it that the same one God is simultaneously the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
God is not subject to the logical contradictions that human minds may perceive. It would deny his omnipotence to say he is subject to logical constraints and would belittle Him to say that we could understand. Like it is said in Coptic:
Onishti emmysterion efcapshoi eninoc inromi. A great mystery, beyond all human minds
Matthew 19:26 is talking about salvation, and when our Lord goes on to say with God all things are possible he is still talking about salvation. It seems to me that we can all think of things that God cannot do. We only need to think of one thing to disprove the idea that He can do anything. He cannot cease to exist.
As to the question about the mountain, this shows that those who pose the question, and it is an old one, do not understand God at all. Of course there is no mountain which is heavier than God can lift. He is not an old man with a white beard, He is the one who maintains the whole universe in being by His will. What does heaviness have to do with God? God is spirit. He does not have arms and legs and muscles.
OP means 'original post'.
Father Peter
But can one really say that God cannot do certain things? Granted he "chooses" not to do those things.
Are you suggesting that God could cease to exist and yet still be God?
Father Peter
Yes, one can say that God cannot do certain things. And many of the posts in the thread show that the Scriptures teach us that God cannot do certain things. He certainly cannot do self-contradictory and illogical things. And he cannot do anything which is evil. And he cannot do anything by which he would cease to be God.
Are you suggesting that God could cease to exist and yet still be God?
Father Peter
That then brings into question the existence of God at all. Does it not? I suppose one must first define God. The question is can we? And if that is impossible then there is no need to continue this thread.
If God IS God, then how can we possibly grasp Him completely? Through Christ, His Holy Spirit, His Church and of course The Sacraments. St John Chrysostom says: "Anyone who does not believe in God who has manifested Himself, and instead represents truth as falsehood-how does he not patently demonstrate his crazyness, his unbelief?"
I couldnt actually open the link, so I tried to just wing it. Sorry if I am way off.