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Language problem
Hey guys hope everyone is enjoying St. Mary's fast,
Anyways my church is having trouble figuring out the language of the Holy Liturgy we only do one and the idea to do an english and an arabic came up and we have 2 priests but the thing is Abouna does not want to divide the families for ex. the parents go to Arabic and the kids to english. And also the main problem is the younger generation like kids from 1st grade to 8th grade they barely know arabic where unlike me im a senior in hs and i grew up with an arabic liturgy and my parents most of the time speak to me in arabic and the problem with the youth my age is that we want Abouna to do more arabic and coptic so we can feel the Liturgy but parents are complaining because the little kids dont understand...so what do you suggest we do
Pray for us
Anyways my church is having trouble figuring out the language of the Holy Liturgy we only do one and the idea to do an english and an arabic came up and we have 2 priests but the thing is Abouna does not want to divide the families for ex. the parents go to Arabic and the kids to english. And also the main problem is the younger generation like kids from 1st grade to 8th grade they barely know arabic where unlike me im a senior in hs and i grew up with an arabic liturgy and my parents most of the time speak to me in arabic and the problem with the youth my age is that we want Abouna to do more arabic and coptic so we can feel the Liturgy but parents are complaining because the little kids dont understand...so what do you suggest we do
Pray for us
Comments
What about mission? Are there liturgies to which local English speaking people are invited? Is there a Coptic Evangelism group in the Church, what are their plans?
The language we use is directly related to what we believe the role of the Church in any place is. What is the understanding of the role and responsibility of your Church? What is the understanding behind the request for Arabic in an English language context? (I am guessing you are in the US).
God bless
Father Peter
I am not in the same situation as Arabic speaking Copts, but I do love my own language truly and deeply, but I believe that if I went to live in Finland (I have visited there many times with my work) I would want to learn to be fluent in Finnish as soon as possible. I know that I would enjoy meeting with other English speaking Christians, but I also believe that if I wanted to live in Finland surely I should worship in Finnish and seek to attract Finnish people to the true Christian faith.
These are difficult matters. But I am seeking to learn Arabic and Coptic so that I can have a deeper relationship with other Coptic Orthodox Christians, but I am convinced that the Church exists both for those outside who do not know Christ and must surely come to meet him in their own language, as well as to meet the pastoral needs of those newly arrived.
Does your Church provide English lessons for those who speak only Arabic so that they can become quickly fluent in the language of their adopted country?
Father Peter
Father Peter
He was saying that parents should sacrifice and learn English because sooner or later, maybe 50 yrs down the road, the arabic population will die out and english and Coptic will survive. Remember that our church is Orthodox in the sense that we keep out traditions but not necessarily our culture. The book was saying how as a church we need to adopt what the youth encounter on a daily basis and try to solve their problems. I personally feel that church and high school are two different worlds for me. I go to a church in california (St John) and now i see only grandparents attend the arabic. I see a lot of families standing together in the English. Every once in a while we have combined liturgies but we pray most of it in english anyways because sometimes we have people from outside the church attending the liturgy. Also vespers are all done in english.
we have visitors fairly often, and the translations are on the projector.
we do encourage people to learn english, but some people are not good at languages and learn slowly, so we compromise. we are a small church (30 - 50 people regularly) so when abouna or the deacons see visitors (non-arabs) in the congregation, they try to do more english.
if we have a visiting priest from a non-english speaking country, we don't expect him to use english, good arabic is better than a really strong accent when attempting to speak english!
i think most churches should compromise, as we need some arabic to welcome the new-comers, some of whom are escaping from very difficult situations, but i agree very strongly with father peter that we should also use english in an english-speaking country.
when Jesus said 'go into all the world and make disciples of all nations' (matthew 28) that means us, too! we should ALL play a part in spreading the good news of Jesus and maybe your part in that is taking the lead in encouraging the people around you to speak more english :)
In general when protestantism began in Europe one of its main demands was to have worship in the vernacular as opposed to latin then understood only by scholars.As time went by the vernacular dated so we found Anglicans, for example, bringing their worship books up to date. The Roman church now does the same, allowing for immigration by having liturgies in the home languages and allowing older people the occasional latin mass(the liturgy was never in the vernacular in Europe before the Reformation). Their point is that there is no question that the vernacular is the default mode with history and ethnicity taking a back seat.
I understand that English is dominant globally and can easily squeeze out languages with fewer speakers and
circumstances have meant that Orthodox churches double as ethnic clubs, you can send your kids there on a Saturday to learn the home language(as do Muslims and Hindus). This is good as is the desire to have some linguistic relics in your liturgy ( the latin mass kept Kyrie Eleison (Greek) until recently)to link to your history. But if you live in a country away from your home your children will be bi-lingual and your grandchildren will have to have lessons to speak to you. All the other customs like eating and marriage customs can be kept and adapted.
The point has been made that the gospel has to be preached. At present, in England, there is no Orthodox church that I can comfortably take enquirers to and Orthodoxy has no public profile. After being stamped out in England and being utterly despised, Roman Catholicism started to make a come back in the mid 19th century thanks in part to Italian missionaries. Now Roman Catholicism is competing with our ethnic church, the Church of England, and still attracts converts from high places. Not so Orthodoxy. Something so marvellous is not being offered to people in any serious way.
One last thing. The bishop at my Russian church, who doesn't speak much English and so has his homilies translated, recently preached about the Orthodox saints of these Isles. He said maybe, in the future, some people MAY be interested in becoming Orthodox. His major concern seems to be to administer to Russians and only incidentally to spread the gospel. He seems a good man so I hope his good intentions got lost in translation.
Please pray for me.
Please forgive for not addressing the main topic, but it caught my attention that some Egyptian parents are not willing to learn English and yet, they are the ones who choose for their children to live in America. I believe the issue here is much deeper that English or Arabic liturgy.
In fact, this is very disturbing sign for the future of young immigrant families with children. They will experience the consequences along the way while their kids are growing and the gap between them will widen dramatically. How can they monitor their kids at school? How can they get involved in their world? I’ve seen several elementary school kids at church speak slang street language and their parents are not correcting them because they do not know what their kids are saying.
In most public libraries in the states, there are many programs offered FOR FREE to help adult learn English. There is no need for the church to provide English classes when they are accessible at public libraries.
As for the accent, all English learners will have accent. That is not an issue. It is quite normal. The thickness of the accent varies and maybe it is an issue if the level of thickness is high. In this case, there are many programs for accent reduction. I believe most of them are available online or at State universities.
If those families are willing to compromise for the sake of their own kids, the liturgy won’t be a problem. The concern will be the seniors, and most churches have liturgies especially for seniors in the mid of the week, and off course in Arabic and they get to brunch and socialize together.
Definitely, you have my prayers for our Egyptian Coptic Church.
please pray for me and my weakness, and for the unity of our Church.
i feel the liturgy more if it is in coptic or arabic that words go deeper
But if the priest only know English that would be an exception
Remember, dear friends, the Coptic Orthodox Church belongs to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
As a native Swede, I am happy to see our clergy in Sweden (originally from Egypt), keenly try to learn Swedish. It is not mainly for my sake, because I can understand the Liturgy in Arabic and Coptic - there are translations - but I think, for the future, it is necessary for the clergy to speak the language of the native people, for missionary work, and also to integrate in society and understand different kind of problems during confessions etc.
On the issue of Coptic, I for one love when we use Coptic. Especially during tasbeha! Although you can't understand it as well, depending on who you are I can read and write but not quite understand, it's so cool. Not because it's the language of our ancestors, but because of how beautiful it is.
When we say it together in Arabic or English, it's truly spiritual. But when you sing a hymn in Coptic, it's not only spiritual but incredibly heavenly as well.
to some of the other posts, ok, some of us non-native arabs can learn the language and respond appropriately in the liturgy, but the whole idea is that if we are sharing the message of Christ as we should in the non-arabic countries, there should be lots of non-arab non-copts coming to our mass every week to find out more about the great life we have in Jesus.
so we need to prepare for that by all learning the languages we need to in order to obey God and spread His word.
this is my opinion anyway, please pray for my weakness
With regard to language problem, I would like to stress the importance of using the major language(s) in each country.
Remember, dear friends, the Coptic Orthodox Church belongs to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
As a native Swede, I am happy to see our clergy in Sweden (originally from Egypt), keenly try to learn Swedish. It is not mainly for my sake, because I can understand the Liturgy in Arabic and Coptic - there are translations - but I think, for the future, it is necessary for the clergy to speak the language of the native people, for missionary work, and also to integrate in society and understand different kind of problems during confessions etc.
well said