A Clarification

Ioannes

Let me clarify something for some people who have flung accusations and criticism my way for saying "Outside the church there is no salvation." This clearly means if you are seeking salvation you will not find it outside of the Orthodox Church. Iriny accused me of having the sin of pride just for being Orthodox. This is whole heartedly untrue and stems from a lack of understanding. Nobody can make up a church and call it Christian and expect to be saved. I also never said God is restricted to the sacraments. Why would God enter into a "church" where his commandments are rejected, or the way in which it was commanded for us to worship Him rejected also? I feel I have made this point clear now and as I said before St John Chrysostom makes this very point clear in "Discourses against judaizing Christians". This is exactly why he refused to address it.

sodr2

Clarify something for me:

Would you be confident in pointing to a Catholic or Hindu individual and say (to yourself) this person will not be saved?

Ioannes

[quote author=sodr2 link=topic=8764.msg109895#msg109895 date=1265190562]
Clarify something for me:

Would you be confident in pointing to a Catholic or Hindu individual and say (to yourself) this person will not be saved?


No I would not, I am not God therefore I will not judge. The positive thing is that the Catholic church has the sacraments and their people believe pretty much the same thing we do, its the higher up that I personally think are problematic. I personally know a few hindus, the weird thing about converting them is that they love Christ when you speak of Him, they tend to say oh yes He is amazing, I will worship Him too! Its not my place to judge if someone is going to heaven or hell, I will question that about my own self until the day I die. Scripturally I can say outside the church there is no salvation, in the sense that if you are trying to attain salvation of your own accord, you will not find it. This is very unsettling for people to think that many people may not be "saved", therefore they do not want to believe it.

Unknown

Not intending to condemn anyone, I would like to bring some Scripture to the forefront; Leviticus 10:1,2.

In the original Greek:

Καὶ λαβόντες οἱ δύο υἱοὶ ᾿Ααρὼν Ναδὰβ καὶ ᾿Αβιοὺδ ἕκαστος τὸ πυρεῖον αὐτοῦ ἐπέθηκαν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸ πῦρ καὶ ἐπέβαλον ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸ θυμίαμα καὶ προσήνεγκαν ἔναντι Κυρίου πῦρ ἀλλότριον, ὃ οὐ προσέταξε Κύριος αὐτοῖς. 2 Καὶ ἐξῆλθε πῦρ παρὰ Κυρίου καὶ κατέφαγεν αὐτούς, καὶ ἀπέθανον ἔναντι Κυρίου.

As translated by Sir Lancelot Brenton:

1 And the two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abiud, took each his censer, and put fire therein, and threw incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which the Lord did not command them, 2 and fire came forth from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Consider that these men only strayed from from the prescribed Liturgy, nevermind the level of rebellion against the Church which protestants participate in, and even more incomparable to the rejection of His power by other religions, and even further, the rejection of His existence by atheists. Once again, I condemn no one, but the future for those not Chosen in Christ appears to be grim.

peterfarrington

As moderator I would like us to call a halt to the discussion of protestants at the moment.

Please let us discuss our own weaknesses and failings and how to overcome them rather than the situation that others may be in.

Thank you

Father Peter

Unknown

Protestants? I thought this thread was about non-Orthodox peoples in general; I wasn't trying to single out protestants, I'm sorry if my post was misleading.

peterfarrington

Now is not the time to discuss those communities outside our Orthodox Church.

Let us concentrate on our own salvation, especially during the season of Great Lent.

Father Peter