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Comments
The guidance of the Church is there for our benefit, not to penalise us or make our faith into a legalistic keeping of rules.
I think that Bishop Mettaous means that after the Vespers begins we should keep ourselves in a prayerful state of heart and mind as far as possible. But if you are praying at home then your FOC can advise you about when you should begin a period of preparation for communion. The idea is not to set some particular time when marital relations are OK, and then 5 minutes later they are not, rather the idea is to help us focus on the preparation for communion.
Just as fasting is not about abstaining from food but about concentrating on God. If we worry so much about what we can eat during the fasts, and when, then we have missed the point.
Father Peter
OK. So HOW LONG either side of Holy Communion do I abstain? No priest or priest monk in my church seems to know exactly. I have been told from Friday night to ?? or even nearer the time.
In Christ
I would like to echo this question also.
Father Peter
I don't see the big fuss in this matter and I am amazed that it has dragged on for 5 threads with the right answer consistently being stated by different people with a futile, unaccepting rebuttal following.
So Father Peter has said what the Church believes. If you want to practice it, the Church has only put forth its advice to YOUR/OUR benefit, not to torture or annoy us. If you choose to refuse the advice of the Church because a lack of self-control, and yes, I say with all boldness and assertive-ness that this is purely self-interest and a lack in self-control that a person cannot consecrate 1 day a week for the Lord, then you are free to do what you want at the cost of the Holy Communion. So that's another choice you must make-- deciding whether the fulfillment of your lust is more important than receiving the Lord's holy Body and precious Blood. Please don't try to deceive yourself to say that this kind of behavior is love or holy. Even within marriage, lust can exist. Just because a person is married, that are not exempt from chastity, self-control, etc.
This post is not directed at any person, but at the topic itself. I was very saddened by what I have read. I see the pure and bright truth shining through many posts, but some people not willing to accept it because by accepting the truth, it would that they might have to change their own practices. If a person's life is truly dedicated to love and service of the Lord and they seek to please Him rather than others as the main goal of their life, then this topic would not be an issue.
I also would like to highlight something someone said earlier—perhaps a person's FOC gave them advice particular to their situation and/or spiritual level—then they go by that, but shouldn't teach it as a general rule. If your FOC gives you permission, then he knows you well and what is best for your salvation at this point in your life, follow his advice.
God bless and may God give us to control our lusts and passions. I did not intend for anyone to take offense at my post; rather, I wanted to make clear certain things which need to be addressed frankly and directly.
a man and a woman should not have sex from Saturday night. Then I have the following questions:
a) Should they sleep in separate rooms to avoid temptation?
b) Should they kiss each other goodnight on saturday?
Now, what if kissing goodnight to your wife/husband, was so erotic, that it just led to any sexual desire?
What about that?
Should you even abstain from seeing her just in case you saw her wearing something provocative? What do you think?
c) What about a small hug on saturday night?? what about that??
Is that OK?
Please don't attack me , or jump on me, or accuse me of anything.. these are just simple questions. All they require is answer:
No rude comments Mina - just answer the questions.. u are not even married, so I don't even know why you bother with this thread.
No one be rude. Please. We are all here to learn, and share.. and if Abouna tells us that we should not have sexual relations Saturday night, then I'd like to know what he suggests for the above potential problems?
QT, i don't get you, you say no rude comments to someone (which i believe was not) yet you make one to him yourself in the same line. i am no where close to being married but i read every word on this thread simply for knowledge and wisdom until the time is right.
Ok i see what u mean.. when I said "i don't even know why you bother with this thread?"
OK.. you read it NOT the way I said it.
Say the above words like you were ordering a BigMac. from mcDonalds.
If you read it the way I said, i'm just asking out of curiosity why he would even be interested in this thread if he's not even married??
But I'm asking in advance that he's polite and answers the question. Is that OK?
Thanks for drawing my attention.
Proverbs 1:20-33
20 Wisdom calls aloud in the street,
she raises her voice in the public squares;
21 at the head of the noisy streets she cries out,
in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
23 If you had responded to my rebuke,
I would have poured out my heart to you
and made my thoughts known to you.
24 But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,
25 since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.
29 Since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the LORD,
30 since they would not accept my advice
and spurned my rebuke,
31 they will eat the fruit of their ways
and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm."
Just my two penny
In Christ
Theophilus
I don’t know how it is in the Coptic Church but in the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox church it is a common practice for a husband and wife to sleep separately during fasting seasons. This is not mandatory but many adhere to this practice. Growing up in a Christian family I remember my mom and dad sleeping in separate beds.
Just my two penny
In Christ
Theophilus
Wow.
Thanks theophilus for sharing that. I'm still in shock actually.
So, it seems though that sleeping in separate rooms is in fact the only way.
What if you don't have a spare room?
In Christ
Theophilus
I think that the way to look at it is the same as all of the spiritual practices of the Church. First we must be convinced that it is necessary for our salvation that we enter into a particular ascesis, and then we must develop our use of any particular spiritual practice with the help of our FOC over a period of time. This will include working through various practical difficulties.
During Great Lent I had some problems because at lunch time everyone was eating around me, and there was a shop in the building that sold food, so I learned to handle things a little better by going for a walk during my lunch break so that I could pray, and avoid a situation where it was too easy for me to make a wrong choice.
In regard to abstaining from marital relations on the eve before communion, if it is impossible not to fall then perhaps separate sleeping arrangements are necessary for a while, but millions upon millions of Orthodox have been able to keep this ascesis so we should not imagine that it is impossible, even if it is difficult for some/many.
As with all spiritual exercises, when we have decided to do something then it is a matter of how, not if. But if a person is not really committed then it will almost be impossible to achieve anything and the situations you describe become excuses rather than difficulties.
We may have in mind the example of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom it is written,
(Heb 12:2) Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
It is possible for us to endure many things if we have the right goal in mind.
Father Peter
* when both you and your wife grow spiritually together, then the fruits of this would be in fact that you'd be inclined to give priority to the Holy Sacraments.. it would be a major point of interest for both husband and wife.
So, actually, you wouldnt even need a spare room. It would be mutual, and a very much needed sense of "preparation" for the Holy Sacraments.
I was thinking, from the start, of something else.. i had previous assumptions with respect to this topic that tainted the actual message I was receiving from people.
I want to share what that is so people here just understand where I was coming from.
In the middle east, apparently, Christians have this idea that sex is somehow bad.. or evil, and that sex within marriage is something not so good. Now, I had this impression already, and it was re-enforced by Dr. Nabil Baki's lecture on sexual relations within marriage.
So, after already having been exposed to such idealogies in the Church, when reading this topic, I could not help but see some parallel between what was discussed before and this topic.
But the two are different, and it was my fault for mixing them up.
Preparation for the Holy Sacraments should be paramount.. but this is natural. I mean, if both parties (husband and wife) are growing spiritually, this ends up being a no-brainer. .both would want and need desperately to partake of the Holy Sacraments more than anything.
Having said that.. I will try and find Fr Peter, and for anyone else, the lectures of Dr. Baki on this subject and post them. I really suggest that you hear them so at least you have some appreciation of the problems in the Coptic Church w.r.t married couples, and some history on this.
Thanks
Here is the link from Dr. Baki.
http://drnabilbaky.com/mrg_coun.htm
I hope this helps clarify a few points.
Hi,
Here is the link from Dr. Baki.
http://drnabilbaky.com/mrg_coun.htm
I hope this helps clarify a few points.
This is really interesting. My brother was telling me about this man. Apparently, he's really big in the states. I haven't yet heard this, but I think it is very good that we have in the CoC someone who can talk about these issues openly.
Is Dr Baki a sexologist?
What about the marriage bed being undefiled??? What about if our heart condemns us not?
I get the whole "if it degrades someone" but in a relationship of mutual love and commitment, why on earth would, for example, oral sex be wrong? And I have not read all the posts, but if someone wants to say that it's because sex should only be for procreation (whether or not it actually occurs), well, I just don't buy it. God created sex for pleasure, too, and the bond of marriage only grows stronger as pleasure is shared between a man and woman who love one another. To put limits on what is acceptable--as if the church belongs in our beds!--is ludicrous to me.
I guess that is my Reformed Protestant Theology, kids.
Wow...I guess there are some things I love about Orthodoxy and others that seem just out there to me.
What about the marriage bed being undefiled??? What about if our heart condemns us not?
I get the whole "if it degrades someone" but in a relationship of mutual love and commitment, why on earth would, for example, oral sex be wrong? And I have not read all the posts, but if someone wants to say that it's because sex should only be for procreation (whether or not it actually occurs), well, I just don't buy it. God created sex for pleasure, too, and the bond of marriage only grows stronger as pleasure is shared between a man and woman who love one another. To put limits on what is acceptable--as if the church belongs in our beds!--is ludicrous to me.
I guess that is my Reformed Protestant Theology, kids.
Don't worry, a lot of Coptic Christians would also agree entirely with you.
Many are quite dismayed that the CoC has gone to the point in interfering in the marriage bed, and suggesting sexual positions that are "allowed" and those "not allowed" in marriage.
Its remarkable.
apparently many authorities feel that oral sex is not ok, and that it falls under the category of sexual immorality. but in what ways, and why?
i know the CC has a pretty well spelled-out theology of the body on these issues, which basically states (as far as i understand) that the husband and wife must come together without the use of anything that could prohibit preganancy (no pills or other contraception), and that they should come together in a way that would produce a child (natural family planning being ok, of course). that means no oral sex, among other things.
does the Coptic Orthodox Church have similar guidelines or reasons for teaching what it does? or are detailed views on this subject generally left up to individual bishops to teach?
As far as what "ok" and such is allowed I don't know, but I do know that if its considered in a way "selfish" then its not allowed, and contraceptions are in fact allowed in the church. They do not believe that it makes sense that a family should be forced into having a child when they aren't ready for one.
ok, that makes sense. in other words, having your wife or husband do something that really only benefits you and has nothing to do with the act of marital love is not ok, because it's selfish, and God doesn't want us to use that gift selfishly. that does make sense.
i know the RCC has a kind of detailed theology on this. does such a similar text or body of literature exist for the Coptic Church? or are these standards basically handed down as a kind of traditon, written or not?
Is oral sex, within the bonds of marriage, permitted in the Orthodox Church?
"Marriage is sacred. Sex is a gift of God to allow the husband and wife to express their love to each other in the most intimate way. It is love full of affection not of lust. Oral sex is an expression of fleshly lust and sinful desires that does not hold sanctity, respect or honor between partners. St. Paul says, "Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled" (Heb 13:4)."
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1052&catid=508
And again:
Does the sacrament of Matrimony put restrictions on the sexual practices a couple may do to show their love to one another; particularly, the question of oral sex integrity or foreplay? From what I understand, the reason for any type of sexual activity is for either procreation or intimacy. Is there a wrong or right way of making love? Does the Holy Bible say anything about making love a certain way and how literally do we take it?
"sacrament that is governed by a unique set of rules. It is expected that the married couple will express their emotions of love for one another in an intimately physical manner. These intimate expressions are for procreation, intimacy, and enjoyment by the husband and wife (Proverbs 5:15-20).
The Lord carefully and beautifully designed the human anatomy in such a way that each member of the body has a special function. No one is at liberty to do as they please with their own body or their spouse's. You can gather, therefore, that even in the context of marriage, there is a fine line between love and lust. Oral, anal, or other deviations of sex is the misuse of one's body and is considered a distortion and perversion of a sexual relationship between husband and wife, based on lust rather than love. If one or both of the spouses do not apply restrictions, they may find themselves later on addicted to such inappropriate stimulation and gratification even within the marriage (1 Thess 4-5).
Remember, sexuality is based on satisfying a desire and not a need. Fasting is an opportunity to restrict the body from satisfying desires, as well as the basic needs, such as food and water, even for short periods of time. The restrictions for marital intimacy are for the purpose of maintaining chastity and purity for the married couple within the marriage. "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15)."
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1308&catid=508
And one more in case the point isn't clear:
I have always wondered if oral sex is really sex.
"Sex is not limited to intercourse. There are boundaries for sexual relationships. Some expressions of sexuality are acceptable within a marriage and some are not. Sex outside the marriage is never acceptable. Sometimes, when people want to justify their sexual desires, they negotiate the definition of sex. All activity of acting out sexual desires is sex. Oral sex is definitely a sexual act but an unacceptable one. "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5). "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions, for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature" (Romans 1:26)."
Note: I did not say anything in this post-- I simply stated what a father of the church has said. As such, I am not sure it is appropriate to argue with the stance of the church, although if you want clarification to understand it, I would talk to your priest.
It has been perverted and has led to the objectifying of women.
Uhh, excuse me, but what about gay sex??
Father Peter
I would like us to leave this topic during Lent please.
Father Peter
After six pages of posts on a sexual topic it gets closed, while it takes one single post for me, or should I say for posting St. John Chrysostom. Absurdity!
You are incorrect. I have not asked that this thread be closed, but that it not be pursued during Lent. In fact this post goes back over a year.
I have also asked you to cease posting on various topics over Lent. The difference is that you have posted several times when I asked you not to, whereas this is a longstanding post that has not been started against my advice.
There are many topics which are not appropriate for Lent. Other forums close down completely during Lent. I am not at all in favour of that, but I do believe that we should concentrate on those topics which aid our own spiritual growth - as I have said several times.
Father Peter
You have continually asked me? I beg to differ. You asked me once when I first posted "The Boldness of St John Chrysostom" then just recently reiterated on that same thread, and here again. So three times you have asked me, twice in the same day...today. I guess you would have to explain to me what is lent worthy discussion, of course bringing forth witnesses on your behalf. These forums seemed to be aimed at directing our brothers and sisters away from vigilance at the continual attack from our adversary, and toward a more liberal mindset. Our church is being, and has been, infiltrated once again. Has the devil stopped his attack? Of course not and this is very relevant to Lent. Again we are at odds over your personal opinions.
You mention many Church Fathers as examples we should walk in but Father Peter is one of the current Church Fathers.
He received the Holy Spirit of priesthood which neither of us have. Therefore, when the Pope blew in his mouth and said "Receive the Holy Spirit...
John 20: 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
What I am trying to say is that Father Peter wants to hold this topic off because we should be focusing more on God and just the mention of this topic and thinking about it shows the lack of our focus. God doesnot want to hold back anything from us, so He sends us fathers, like Father Peter, to GUIDE us in the right path. Please donot get upset and forgive me but one thing is that we must obey our Church Fathers. In the Monastery, there are two main things monks always say; 7aleni (forgive me) and meshy ya abbey ( yes to any command giving, not asking why, how or is it not better if we ...)
The obedient son receives the blessings, and in the Bible (Do not know what verse exactly) says that God desires obedience rather than sacrifice. I see your passion and I wish I can have your eagerness for spiritual growth but let’s not guide ourselves but let Those who received the same Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ blew into His disciples, whom they blew into the mouth of the St. Mark, which moved on from one Pope to another until Pope Sheounda to Father Peter.
Pray for me and Forgive me
Another thing that bothers me is that you assert we do not posess the Holy Spirit. This is false. Anyone baptized Orthodox receives it in Christmation, when the priest blows on you. To assert that I or any of us do not have the capability of having the Holy Spirit is wrong, and basically you are passing off infallability without actually saying it. Fr Peter is human. While I agree we must obey we also should not be afraid to question when someone is in error. We must respect the priesthood, but we should not deem them flawless or that they posess the Holy Spirit and we are not worthy enough to.
Do not forget your past and see that many in the priesthood have gone awry, no to co
pare Fr Peter to them. But the lesson shows that just because they are ordained does not mean they become flawless and infallable. "that even the elect might be deceived" remember that verse? I have stated my case, i have brought my witnesses who spoke on my behalf, what else do I need?