Trisagion

edited January 25 in Hymns Discussion
Hello,
I was just wondering:
1.) Is there a complete translation of the chanted verses of the trisagion in coptic? (Ⲭⲟⲩⲁⲃ Ⲫϯ...)
2.) When the whole trisagion is read, are the verses supposed to have the seasonal adjustments?
2.1.) Side note: Is there seasonal adjustments for the Seven Tunes (and Morning Praises in general) at the part "...[ⲁϥⲓ̀] ⲁϥⲥⲱϯ ⲙ̀ⲙⲟⲛ."

Ϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ.

Comments

  • Hi @WedeYonas,
    I don't know if the trisagion has been converted into Coptic or not, but I know that another member has tried to do it a while ago.. You may search for the thread on another part of this forum.
    I don't understand what you mean by the whole trisagion.
    For seven tunes as well as other hymns I agree that ⲁϥⲓ should always change to reflect the events being celebrated, I am aware that this was not the old practice though..
    As a side request I ask you and all other members to refrain from saying ϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ. This expression is an imperative verb to instruct someone to "thank". It does not mean anything. Thank who? Thank what?
    However, if one would want to say something along the lines of "with thanks", "مع الشكر", then one needs to say ϧⲉⲛ ⲟⲩϣⲉⲡϩⲙⲟⲧ. To say "I thank" only ϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ would still be wrong - the verb ought to be "ϯϣⲉⲡϩⲙⲟⲧ" and even in that case it is incomplete and incorrect. Ϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ literally means "accept grace" without an article, eg "from", hence it has to be followed by "ⲛ̀ⲧⲟⲧ//".
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
  • 2) No. These are declarations of our Faith and our Faith does not change based on seasons, the hymns simply change in accordance to the feast we are celebrating. The Holy Synod has banned this before the papacy of HH Pope Shenouda III and it kept occurring to the extent that He renewed the banning again during His papacy.
  • @Jojo_Hanna,
    Are you referring to the creed on the question of "whole trisagion"?
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
  • Well that is also included. The Holy Synod warned against this erroneous practice that some practiced for the prayers of both the Trisagion (prayed in Matins and Vespers before Doxologies) and the Creed.
  • Actually, 2 does change with season the same with the hymn. 

    The decision of the Synod that Jojo_Hanna is mentioning is ONLY concerning the Creed, and nothing else. While all liturgical services are a declaration of our faith, the Orthodox Creed is the heart and most important. 

    In previous times, in Pascha, parts of the Creed were omitted to match the celebration. But, cantors took that further and started to even omit other parts throughout all the Holy Fifties (like stop at "according to the scriptures" until it's the feast of the Ascension). This is problematic. So that's mainly the reason the Synod decided that the Creed cannot be touched. 
  • edited January 25
    On the topic,
    What is the source for the recent change of the Trisagion on Coptic Reader for Theophany (ⲉⲕ ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩ, ⲟ Ⲓⲟⲣⲇⲁⲛⲟⲩ x2 instead of ⲟ Ⲓⲟⲣⲇⲁⲛⲟⲩ x3), along with the other significant changes to the Coptic (Nativity Paralex, Patriarch Doxology, Alternative Nativity Gospel Response, etc.)

    Ϯϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ ⲛ̀ⲧⲟⲧⲧⲉⲛ.
  • I think there atleast one old manuscript that includes ⲉⲕ ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩ first ... And it makes sense considering that all those feasts, from Nativity to Cana of Galilee, are celebrations of the Divine Appearance.

    Nativity paralex is not new ... Always been there.

    Patriarch Doxology, the mistake we all knew that needed to change was in the later paragraph, and that was to replace Aaron with Melchizedek, referring to the priesthood on which our priesthood is now established, being headed by Christ Himself, and considering the context of St Paul's epistle in Hebrews. But, that change in the first paragraph is made up to not make it sound like we supposed "St Peter's Supremacy"

    Alternative Nativity Gospel Response... If you are talking about Rabbol-Magd.... That's a bit long. But it's basically an Arabic response that was adapted from an Arabic madeeha... And kinda screwed up in saying "according to John before he saw Him." I'll stop here for now about this.

    Other stuff, you kinda need ask about separately.

    In general thoo, please do recognize that Coptic Reader only represents the rites practiced by the SUS diocese.... And they are not always accepted by many other churches.
  • Good point about the creed my teacher @minatasgeel but I have to be honest I am strongly against the synod's reasoning.
    Dear @WedeYonas ⲛ̀ⲧⲟⲧⲉⲛ means us, while the word for plural you is ⲛ̀ⲧⲉⲛ ⲑⲏⲛⲟⲩ..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
  • @minatasgeel I meant Ⲁⲡⲉⲛϭⲟⲓⲥ (now Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ), where they changed ⲕⲁⲧⲁ ⲛⲓⲥ̀ⲙⲏ ⲙ̀ⲡ̀ⲣⲟⲫⲏⲧⲓⲕⲟⲛ to ⲥⲱϯ ⲙ̀ⲙⲟⲛ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲁⲛ.

    @ophadece ϯϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ ⲛ̀ⲧⲟⲧⲕ Ⲡⲁⲥⲁϧ ⲛ̀̀̀ⲱⲟⲩⲛ̀ϩⲏⲧ. የቐንየለይ!
  • @ophadece....ehhh, atleast we were given a reason.

    @WadeYonas, I just got the update....and this is annoying a bit. But it looks like they changed it to match the part from the Thursday Psali, which is where these "mohayyars" come from. But this is for sure different than all recordings and maybe books (I'd need to do some research for this). But the idea of changing here is what's problematic, not the change itself.

    The change in the "Alternate Gospel Response" is the fixed version to what i mentioned above...even thoo they didn't match the exact original correct arabic, but this is good.
  • In terms of the Mohayyer for the Nativity, the one in CR now is the more correct version as that is the one found in manuscripts and books like tarteeb. The issue is it is not correct grammatically to say ⲁⲡⲉⲛϭⲟⲓⲥ and then ⲫⲏⲉⲧⲁⲥ. The solutions to this are to either remove the ⲁ and make it ⲡⲉⲛϭⲟⲓⲥ, to replace it with something like ⲱ to make it ⲱ ⲡⲉⲛϭⲟⲓⲥ, to change the second line to be ⲙⲁⲥϥ ⲛ̀ϫⲉ ϯⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲥ, or to simply change it to reflect the manuscript and psali and say ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ. As for the last line being changed, this again reflects the manuscript and books.


    In terms of the Trisagion for the Theophany. All of the sources say to chant the first verse with ⲟ̀ ⲉⲕ ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩ. This actually makes sense since the Nativity & Theophany are tied together and supposedly historically were celebrated together (someone else can confirm or deny that). This is something we see practiced today by the Armenian Church. In addition, people consider the Theophany to be the end of the Christmas period. And if you consider what we celebrate during the Theophany, not just the baptism, but the manifestation of the Trinity. We have the Son incarnate who came to John to be baptized, the Father whose voice was heard from the heavens, and the Holy Spirit who appeared like a dove. So it would make sense to first reference Him who was born of the Virgin and then Him who was baptized in the Jordan.
  • @minatasgeel - agreed, at least a reason was given but that's what I have an issue with, ie when reasons are made up for the sole purpose of invention and modification!
    @minamakar - absolutely right, until the second quarter of the 5th century the Coptic Church has celebrated Theophany (Nativity and Baptism) as one feast and then they were split up. That was around the 4th decade of the 5th century. However, and this is only my personal deduction which could be wrong, the trisagion hymn was first chanted at the council of Chalcedon, ie 2 decades later roughly. So it may not be the absolute history of using the hymn but perhaps the philosophy to reflect the unity of both events as you have rightly alluded.
    BTW I am more in favour of this old practice, which I downloaded from this very website and that matches manuscripts as per the information you taught me today, and also because I see that some things are done just through evolution (sometimes wrong evolved practices) that ought not be so.
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
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