Evolution & Creationism

Zoxsasi

minasoliman said:

If any other person who read 5+ pages is able to see and understand my posts which already addressed and refuted your concerns, I think it would be a waste to continue this discussion with you publicly Zoxsasi. This is with all due respect. If many people are unable to understand my answers and are as confused as you, then I apologize for my posts, and I think it would be a waste of time to continue this discussion since I'm unable to explain myself with people like you. If other people have any new questions, I'm more than happy to try my best to answer these new questions.

God bless.

Mina,

Why not step back and let BeeKay or someone else answer these points? If Beekay is asking me these questions, it means he or she's already read the 5 pages on this thread and still needs to ask the same questions. Maybe the way you write suits some people and not others. 

Let someone else continue. I find the way you write interesting, but you lose me. And then rather explain it simply or in a way that I can understand, you just end up shouting at me : as if i'm stupid and you have to raise your voice. 

And now you say: "it would be a waste of time to continue.. with people like you". 

That's harsh and quite rude. I see no point in discussing anything with anyone where there is no mutual respect. I may not be the smartest person here, but it doesn't mean you should be derogatory or rude.

Being rude or derogatory doesn't invite dialogue. 

minasoliman

It was not meant to be derogatory or rude.

Forgive me.

Mina

Zoxsasi

Everyone has different learning abilities and capacities. 

If God has given you a talent in explaining, that's great. If he's given you a talent in singing, that's great. If He's given you a talent in preaching: that's awesome. 

But its best, generally speaking, that with each talent, God gives you humility as the talent itself may cause you to sin.

That's pointless.

Ultimately, we should work and use our talents for the Glory of God, not go and make people feel humiliated that they are asking. I'm not the smartest person in the world, OK.. thats fine, but to be talked to this way is uncalled for.

minasoliman

Zoxsasi,

Again, that was not meant to be rude. You seem to think I'm yelling at you. You are overreacting. My concern was how you repeat questions to me. It's pointless to continue since I already answered those questions and that's for one of two reasons:

1. Either everyone understood my answers and you don't or
2. Everyone does not understand my answers and I can't explain

Both of these possibilities lead me to think the discussion I am having with you should end. When I say "people like you", it means people who do not understand what I wrote, in which case, it was meant to debase myself, not you.

You have another perspective from beekay, but as you can see He and I do not agree on all points, and I have a great respect for him because he seems to "get it" still without going in circles like you. And I think you should keep that in mind without jumping to conclusions that "you can't" agree with both proper Christian theology and the facts of science.

I have had discussions with my parents and with my priest on this issue. They get it, and they understand my perspective. Maybe I'm better at talking than I am writing.

Forgive me.

Zoxsasi

Mina,

No. I don't get it. 

I was at a point where I could have believed that we can reconcile our faith with contemporary scientific theories on evolution; but after discussing with my parents, this seems impossible.

Also, if Genesis was to be taken allegorically, it makes no sense. The entire Bible and Orthodox Soteriology makes zero sense: 

If Adam & Eve didnt even exist, and they simply refer to some random homo-sapian specie that happened to evolve from Apes where God decided to breath His life into them, then our faith makes no sense: because as I said, we believe that death (physical and spiritual) are not a design intent. They are the result of a fallen nature which we inherit from Adam and Eve. 

Then to top it off, others have made a good point saying that the Church fathers said that Genesis is not allegorical in any way. Its literal. 

TITL

Zoxsasi,

If you have time, I highly recommend Dr. Jeannie Constantinou's "Search the Scripture" podcast. She goes in depth (I think about 5 lectures) talking about creation in Genesis and what the fathers of our church say, esp Chrysostom. You'll find a lot of your questions answered!

Her lectures aren't hard to understand at all. Please consider it, and then if she says something that you still have *different* questions about, bring them here! I don't think Mina minds new discussions on evolution ;) but I've been following this thread, and he really did answer every single one of your questions. I don't know what else can be said at this point.

minatasgeel

Zoxsasi & minasoliman...please take it to PM

Zoxsasi

TITL said:

Zoxsasi,

If you have time, I highly recommend Dr. Jeannie Constantinou's "Search the Scripture" podcast. She goes in depth (I think about 5 lectures) talking about creation in Genesis and what the fathers of our church say, esp Chrysostom. You'll find a lot of your questions answered!

Her lectures aren't hard to understand at all. Please consider it, and then if she says something that you still have *different* questions about, bring them here! I don't think Mina minds new discussions on evolution ;) but I've been following this thread, and he really did answer every single one of your questions. I don't know what else can be said at this point.

maybe i missed something, but i feel we're going around in circles. TITL: did we evolve from apes? 

how can you say that we evolved from apes and yet at the same time believe that Adam & Eve existed and the story in Genesis was not at all allegorical?

 

katanikhoros

Zoxsasi and Beekay,

Adam and Eve were the first human beings in the fullest sense possible. How is this irreconcilable with evolution? They were the first humans to have God's Image and Likeness imprinted in them. What is this Image? It is the same Image who said, "He who sees Me sees the Father", of whom St. Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God" and again in Hebrews 1:3 calls Him the "express image of His person [God]".

This same Image of God the Father is His Logos, His Light, Power, Mind and Glory, our Lord Jesus Christ. That is what was breathed into Man. As humans we were meant to be in the likeness of God. This logos lives on in our nature as we have been given minds and the capability of rationality. We have been given a moral nature and a conscience. We have been given freedom of will reflecting the unlimited Power and Majesty of God. We have been given creativity and the gift of procreation to actually participate in God's creation by choice. We have been given a deep spiritual hunger and thirst for God which has been demonstrated [and corrupted] throughout the centuries. We have been given self-consciousness and have a sense of being "I am's" reflecting He who is the Truly Self-sufficient and Self-existing "I AM".

These are meant to be used to grow in God's likeness though we have used them to be demonized. This divine image and likeness cannot be demonstrated to us scientifically. Biology cannot account for how we can actually, apart from our chemical impulses and biological predispositions, choose to act one way or another through free will. It cannot tell us how we apprehend objective and moral truths. If morality is merely an evolutionary trait it ceases to be true morality. If our reasoning is merely the result of neural impulses it ceases to be a real apprehension of the Truth. In this way, though we are members of the animal kingdom, we also stand outside nature altogether through our divine imprint, hence why we are said to be composed of both body and spirit.

Adam and Eve were the first creatures to become *real* human beings, not merely homo sapiens (if evolution is to be believed). They were the beginning of human civilization as we know it, as rational free moral creatures on planet earth, unique among the animal kingdom. Not merely as highly intelligent or mentally sophisticated mammals, but truly animals of dust and earth (physical nature) elevated to spiritually become representations of God on earth through this intrinsic image and likeness.

This is why Christ, the Image of the Father, when He became human showed us what it means to be fully human. When Pontius Pilate said "Behold the Man" he presented to us One who showed us everything we were meant to be, to be truly Sons of God and perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. He calmed the seas, healed the lepers, showed true compassion and love, purity and righteousness. This is why Christ is the second Adam for He restored humanity to be the glory of God it was initially meant to be.

This initial image as it was placed in man brought him into a direct communion with God and made his entire world a Paradise of Joy in perfect and open fellowship with the Trinity to continue to grow in His likeness and continue in immortality, as Christ grew as a human before God while on earth. However, while Christ united His will to that of the Father's will, these first humans directed their will away from Him who is Life, towards Death. This turned us towards corruption of that initial likeness and innocence. It turned us towards an existence of death and dying in every sense of the word, entering into our world as humans. 

While death is natural for the rest of the universe in its processes God ingrained His image and likeness in our ancestors, meaning that like God they would live in a state of immortality by their union with Him who is Eternal. 

So Christ the second Adam, by restoring this Image and Likeness to humanity through living the life we were meant to live, restores that immortality to us through His perfect obedience to God His Father. He has become the first among His brethren, firstborn over all creation, the first fruits of a new harvest, the beginning of the eternal Spring when we shall all rise into our glory.

The saints partially show us this original likeness through grace given to them. When the saints have power over wild beasts, power over nature, we see the original harmony that mankind would have had, and was meant to have, with the rest of creation as kings and priests over it. As Peter and Paul heal the sicknesses and cast out the demons, we are being given that initial authority to trample over all the power of the enemy and his corruption. This is the royal priesthood Christ has come to restore for us.

God Bless

Zoxsasi

Zoxsasi and Beekay,

Adam and Eve were the first human beings in the fullest sense possible. How is this irreconcilable with evolution? They were the first humans to have God's Image and Likeness imprinted in them. 

Hi Katanikhoros,

So what you are saying is that we came about through evolution. When the human specie had developed fully in to the remarkable specimens of Adam and Eve, at that point God imprinted His Image and Likeness in them.

But I fail to see how that could happen: if Adam & Eve had indeed evolved from lower primates, then there would be other "Adam & Eve's" around the world. The idea was that they were exclusive. They could not have been "exclusive" because if mankind had evolved, it means there was process of reproduction and death over billions of years, coupled with natural selection to produce a better specie. 

The fact that evolution requires reproduction and death means that it is hardly unlikely evolutionary mechanisms gave rise to only 2 persons. 

katanikhoros

"In the Hebrew language Adam signifies 'human being,' and...in those parts of the narrative which appear to refer to Adam as an individual, Moses is discoursing upon the nature of humanity in general." - Origen (Against Celsus 4.40)

Zoxsasi

katanikhoros said:

"In the Hebrew language Adam signifies 'human being,' and...in those parts of the narrative which appear to refer to Adam as an individual, Moses is discoursing upon the nature of humanity in general." - Origen (Against Celsus 4.40)

So all of Genesis is allegorical? 

How is it we inherit a corrupted nature then? 

katanikhoros

Where did you get that all of Genesis is allegorical?

Death which entered into our world by the envy of the devil.

Zoxsasi

katanikhoros said:

Where did you get that all of Genesis is allegorical?

Death which entered into our world by the envy of the devil.

Because you said:

"Adam and Eve were the first creatures to become *real* human beings, not merely homo sapiens (if evolution is to be believed). "

It means there were other species before them that were still under-developed humans. Well, that's the impression I got from your comment at least.

katanikhoros

Yeah but how's that all of Genesis? And that much is hardly allegorical.

Zoxsasi

Guys, I'm confused. Mina is telling us that Genesis is allegorical and evolution is a fact (that we evolved from apes), and you are saying something different.

Are you a Church servant, Katanikhoros?

katanikhoros

I am, but I am not sure what that has to do with the argument. Whether evolution is real or not is irrelevant to the story of Creation. Clearly the story is wrapped up in a lot of mystery that we cannot begin to actually understand what exactly happened historically. But the story we are given is the best representation that the Holy Spirit has inspired to deliver the story of creation and the fall of humanity. 

These arguments about what literally happened and what didn't only serve to distract us from the underlying spiritual message of the story. The Tree of Life is the Cross and the Fruit is the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan tempts us with counterfeits telling us if we disobey we can be like God when we are already made in his likeness. We sought to be our own gods rather than gods through the Trinity. Every temptation is a counterfeit for finding joy and completion outside of God rather than in Him.

Following our own ego and selfish ambition we did away with God and fell into Death. The first murder is born out of this state of death. It is from a fall of unselfish love to envy and egoism. 

The fathers read the entire Old Testament in an almost purely Christological way. Everything is about Christ. Whether we were created in 6 24 hour days or billions of years through evolution are both scientific theories about HOW God created us, it is irrelevant to the intention of the book. Wasting our time arguing about these theories makes us lose sight of the spiritual meaning of the passages.

God Bless

minasoliman

+10000000

To add another perspective, to strain and toil and despair over the literal details is the same mistake as the story of Genesis teaches, the temptation to eat of the tree of knowledge. This is a good indication that as we learn more, we should humbly seek the true Tree of Life, the Cross, and its fruit, the Eucharist, and allow God to reveal such knowledge in His own time, and not in our's. That is why my answers are always filled with mystery and "I don't knows".

katanikhoros

The spiritually mature way to read the story is to see yourself directly involved in the fall, that you were in Adam disobeying God as we have all done. That is how St. Gregory the Theologian takes it and this is what we see in his Liturgy.

Zoxsasi

Does accepting evolution (human evolution from Apes or lower primates) in any way impact what the Church teaches about the fall of mankind?

I've read this thread over and over and I can't see how we can believe that we evolved from Apes and still believe that God created us in His Image and Likeness.

And then there's people here acting as if its just me with a comprehension problem, when what is being said is far from clear:

"that's why my answers are filled with mystery and I don't knows"

katanikhoros

Perhaps you should ask the question in reverse, how is evolving from Apes keeping you from being in the image and Likeness of God?

Zoxsasi

katanikhoros said:

Perhaps you should ask the question in reverse, how is evolving from Apes keeping you from being in the image and Likeness of God?

Because God didnt create us, we evolved. 

What did God create?

Then if He did created us from Apes, it means that death was already a design intent for us to arrive in being the human species we are. 

If that's the case, then we can't say that "death or corruption" entered  by the envy of the devil/Satan during Holy Liturgy. How can we say that? Death didnt enter into our race by the envy of anyone - it was already God's plan that we die - because dying and reproducing is the key to evolution. 

You can then argue and say: well, at one stage in our development, God breathed in humans and made us in His Image and Likeness - if that's the case, why do we die? or why do we still die? We are made in God's likeness - and does God decay?? Does He die????? No. He doesn't.

You can then argue and say: "Well, we inherit a corrupted nature". That "inheritance" of a corrupted nature makes zero sense in light of evolution. If we were already destined to die (as part of our nature), then sin or no sin, we'd have still died. If God did not intend for us to die when He breathed His Spirit in Man, then why do descendants of Adam and Eve still die?? They are innocent of Adam's sin. None of this makes any sense. 

Tobit

katanikhoros said:

Perhaps you should ask the question in reverse, how is evolving from Apes keeping you from being in the image and Likeness of God?

It's astounding that no one can address Zoxas's inquiry given that he has shown a theological problem. Instead he is asked to read better or reverse the question. Anyone can have faith in anything, or better yet, faith in faith. But this isn't about personal faith, but truth. Utter and absolute truth. 

I remember Fr Seraphim Rose (who was an evolutionist) stating the danger most theistic evolutionists run into is not the scientific facts they possess but the interpretation of these facts which inadvertently turned their science into a philosophy without realizing it. 

Evolution, i think, can present consequences beyond the realm of religion given what we have seen recently of philosophies that run such organizations like planned parenthood. The respect for the human ikon, the holy, the temple & the sacred isn't as possible when applied with a materialistic philosophy like evolution. But when i think about, I just don't know.

Is this a subtle subversion or bait that the materialists and atheists have thrown to us which we have fallen for? I don't know.

I just hope those who are staunch believers in evolution leave room for doubt, because we may never truly know, and our focus has to remain in Christ and His cross. And given that there are some clear theological problems, we have to take a step back and reevaluate things.

Zoxsasi

Tobit said:

katanikhoros said:

 And given that there are some clear theological problems, we have to take a step back and reevaluate things.

DEFINATELY!

No one is talking about this re-evaluation. Everyone's talking to me as if my understanding is flawed and all this is so obvious that my low pitiful IQ is causing all these problems.

Absolute nonsense!!

We need to re-evaluate our theology. How do we interpret salvation in light that Adam & Eve probably didnt exist?? 

How do we understand salvation in light of the fact that death was God's design intent!!!

Did God use evolution as a means to give rise to humans. It means that God designed death!!! Evolution requires death and reproduction to take place. 

So if God designed death - isn't that, in itself, going against WHOM God is?? Why or How could someone who is always life-giving create something that is corrupt?? 

We can argue and say that we are the cause of this incorruption through disobedience. NONSENSE. How? if you believe in Evolution and accept it, then it we were prone to die anyway. 

katanikhoros

Zoxsasi,

the problem we are having with your posts is that you are not properly addressing what has been posted earlier and it is very frustrating. I feel for minasoliman.

Let me put this for you in basic point form:

1. God created you

2. He does not need to snap His fingers to create you

3. He has guided all the processes of nature to make you as you are now

4. God may have used the processes of nature to make humanity through evolution: this is a scientific debate.

As for Death:

As for death entering into our world. The earliest theology of the world did not believe that this death was referred to for the rest of nature which dies and rises naturally organically. Rather, as creation, we are naturally bound to non-existence as St. Athanasius writes in his "On the Incarnation", but by being put in Paradise of Joy by remaining in communion with God, Who is Life, we were created in incorruption. Though we were susceptible to death and non-existence, we were given the grace of immortality. As St. Athanasius rightly asserts, immortality belongs to God alone, but He grants His limited creatures this grace. When we sinned by Satan's deceit death entered into our world as humanity. This means that we are in a state of death and dying.

You fail to understand this point. I had trouble understanding it as well but minasoliman clarified it.

As for Evolution leading to terrible philosophies this is not true. There is a lot of philosophical baggage that gets thrown into the scientific realm. Simply because we have evolved from lower species does not negate that we have a spiritual component in us that cannot be accounted for by evolution. Our reason, our meaning, our image and likeness are part of this spiritual component which elevates us. This is where we derive our inherent value as humans.

As for Adam and Eve being the first humans, whichever humans were known to be fully human as we are now, these are called Adam and Eve, perhaps they are representative of a larger group of humans that fell, perhaps not, who knows. The story is not meant as a historical account. As many fathers have shown us the Creation story of Genesis is wrapped in mystery and should be understood to have Christological truths. It is a story that the Holy Spirit gives us to best represent what happened of how the universe was created and humanity fell from its prime glory.

Because of this, we are wasting our time analyzing what part of that story is literal or not and evading the important spiritual truths being conveyed. Some of these points...Tree of Life = Cross. Fruit = Jesus' Body and Blood. Satan offers counterfeits. Theosis...now we think that reading the Creation story of Genesis is about proving that evolution is false.

An Fyi, many creation myths around the time Genesis was written had similar sequence of events (this was the science of the time), but many things are unique about the story. God creates out of nothing and has a Word and Spirit and makes man in His Image and Likeness. Man has authority over the creation and is in communion with God. Man falls into sin and death.

Please try to carefully read what was written here and respond to these points.

God Bless

Zoxsasi

Guys,

I feel what you are doing is dangerous. You are all, by the way, answering my points by asking me loaded questions.

Please please see the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFi8k5IMK0

CHRISTIANITY AND EVOLUTIONARY THEORY ARE INCOMPATIBLE!!!

Zoxsasi

This is why we are having problems. Because THERE IS NO WAY that evolutionary theory (Macro-evolution) is compatible with Christianity or Theism.

Those who think it is are going to end up with a patchwork of nice ideas sown with philosophical threads that, at the end of the day, is going to look like an unfinished work in progress for a cat's winter jumper. Its pointless. It looks tatty and makes no sense.

Both cannot be true 

qawe

I have a question:

If Adam and Eve are not literal, then why should Noah's flood be literal?  And if not that, why should Christ's resurrection be literal a la Spong?

minasoliman

Because the goal of humanity is theosis, and the Logos was planning to become incarnate, whether or not man fell into sin.  Adam and Eve and Noah are all typologically connected to the gospel of Christ in some way, whether you take them literally or not.  I am not saying that you do not take everything allegorically only.  Some literality is necessary, but it should not be to the iota.

Ravi Zacharias and other Protestants like him believe that God so loved the world, He sent the world His only begotten Bible, that whosoever reads it literally like Muslims shall not perish but have everlasting heaven.  Orthodoxy believes God did not send a book, but THE Word enfleshed, that we may rise from the dead and ascend on the right hand of the Father as co-heirs of Christ.

I have some questions that before were rhetorical, but now I would like answered:

1.  How is creation from dust different than a more advanced dust of the ape?

1a. If you're worried about death, can dust be made naturally immortal?

1b. If dust is not naturally immortal, then did God create us to die?  But if He didn't create us to die, how is it that dust is not immortal?

1c. If dust can be made naturally immortal, why do we need God?

2.  How are you created from God when in fact your parents created you?

3.  Is Adam and Eve made in the image of dust if they are created from dust?

4.  If evolution leads to immorality, how do I explain the Biblical passages of genocide in the Old Testament?  Did God give Joshua a philosophy of evolution to destroy vast communities?  Or as Richard Dawkins argues, is religion the source of genocide, and reason and intellect the source of common sense?

minasoliman

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware on evolution:

And here is Fr. Thomas Hopko giving a long series on Darwin and Orthodox Christianity:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/series/darwin_and_christianity

And if you like a Roman Catholic perspective, search in youtube "Fr. Robert Barron evolution" and you will get many videos.  Here's some examples I think is good for explaining basic theology of Genesis:

And if you like an alternative Protestant perspective, search in youtube "Francis Collins evolution" and you will find tons of material there.  Dr. Francis Collins is an MD and PhD in genetics, who found breast cancer and cystic fibrosis genes, and who successfully lead the United States in the first ever human genome project.  He WAS an atheist, and he became a Protestant.  He never changed his mind on evolution.  He changed his mind on how he sees the world and how he found fulfillment in the faith of Christ.

These men are giving a patchwork of nice ideas?