Ebi ebros efkes tasete vs. Ebi ebros efshes tasete

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Merry Christmas all of you :)

Yesterday in the liturgy, I was looking at the screen and while I was reading remembered the Ki letter rule that when ebslon, ei, iota, and eta follows it, it is pronounced SH but everybody says it K (In epi ebros efkes tasete) so what is the right way to say it.
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  • [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12781.msg150069#msg150069 date=1325950972]
    Merry Christmas all of you :)

    Yesterday in the liturgy, I was looking at the screen and while I was reading remembered the Ki letter rule that when ebslon, ei, iota, and eta follows it, it is pronounced SH but everybody says it K (In epi ebros efkes tasete) so what is the right way to say it.

    you just answered your own question.
  • Maybe I wasnot clear... that is how everybody says it but isnot it suppose to be efshes?
  • [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12781.msg150083#msg150083 date=1325986616]
    Maybe I wasnot clear... that is how everybody says it but isnot it suppose to be efshes?

    yes....to the school that teaches this pronunciation. 
  • I will add fuel to the fire, you forgot the school that teaches:  "evkhi".

    In any of the scenarios:  no one stands and no one prays.  That is the problem.

    Merry Christmas!
  • [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12781.msg150088#msg150088 date=1325991320]
    I will add fuel to the fire, you forgot the school that teaches:  "evkhi".

    In any of the scenarios:  no one stands and no one prays.  That is the problem.

    Merry Christmas!

    agreed.
  • There is no such thing as rules of pronouncing letter "x" in any language.. both are correct...
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12781.msg150088#msg150088 date=1325991320]
    I will add fuel to the fire, you forgot the school that teaches:  "evkhi".

    In any of the scenarios:  no one stands and no one prays.  That is the problem.

    Merry Christmas!


    I actually find most people standing. As for those no-one praying, if you were praying you would not have noticed that. Maybe what you meant to say was that the pronunciation come second to ensuring that we do it rather than just saying it.

    ReturnOrthodoxy     
  • [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12781.msg150088#msg150088 date=1325991320]
    I will add fuel to the fire, you forgot the school that teaches:  "evkhi".

    In any of the scenarios:  no one stands and no one prays.  That is the problem.

    Merry Christmas!
    agreed.. well put!
  • RTO,

    I won't give my full interpretation.  I will leave it as I stated--an open comment.  Let it be interpreted as one wishes.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12781.msg150092#msg150092 date=1326011023]
    There is no such thing as rules of pronouncing letter "x" in any language.. both are correct...
    Oujai



    I honestly cannot find the source but I have been taught from two different people in two completely different continents that 'X' is pronounced K in all coptic words and SH if it is in greek and followed by the 'E' vowels and Kh in every other case...
  • Dear Copticandproud,
    Ignore that teaching please.. there is no such thing in any living language, so let's not make Coptic artificial... BTW, what is the rule for the letter "c" in English?
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12781.msg150088#msg150088 date=1325991320]
    I will add fuel to the fire, you forgot the school that teaches:  "evkhi".

    In any of the scenarios:  no one stands and no one prays.  That is the problem.

    Merry Christmas!

    ILSM,
    I love your uncanny short answers. After all, I wrote a doxology in Coptic for you. (Which by the way, you never commented on. But I guess your uncanny short answers are getting shorter)

    Regardless of you debating style, I don't think it's fair for you or anyone to make such a broad generalization that you can never prove. Unless you're taking a census of everyone one in church sitting when epi prosevki is said, you can't definitively say "no one stands". You definitely can't say "no one prays" since you do not know the hearts of men. And you definitely cannot correlate lack of standing with lack of praying.

    I understand, as Return of Orthodoxy commented, you were trying to change the direction of the debate from technical pronunciation to spirituality. This is commendable. But keeping your uncanny short answers "open-ended" lends to misunderstanding. Which in turn leads to unnecessary judgment. Which in turn leads to fights.

    e;byt (Ashan khatri), make your uncanny short answers go directly to a point or a conclusion. This is where the are most effective.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12781.msg150147#msg150147 date=1326118131]
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12781.msg150088#msg150088 date=1325991320]
    I will add fuel to the fire, you forgot the school that teaches:  "evkhi".

    In any of the scenarios:  no one stands and no one prays.  That is the problem.

    Merry Christmas!

    ILSM,
    I love your uncanny short answers. After all, I wrote a doxology in Coptic for you. (Which by the way, you never commented on. But I guess your uncanny short answers are getting shorter)

    Regardless of you debating style, I don't think it's fair for you or anyone to make such a broad generalization that you can never prove. Unless you're taking a census of everyone one in church sitting when epi prosevki is said, you can't definitively say "no one stands". You definitely can't say "no one prays" since you do not know the hearts of men. And you definitely cannot correlate lack of standing with lack of praying.

    I understand, as Return of Orthodoxy commented, you were trying to change the direction of the debate from technical pronunciation to spirituality. This is commendable. But keeping your uncanny short answers "open-ended" lends to misunderstanding. Which in turn leads to unnecessary judgment. Which in turn leads to fights.

    e;byt (Ashan khatri), make your uncanny short answers go directly to a point or a conclusion. This is where the are most effective.


    My exact point. ILSM, I did not mean to offend or start a fight. Forgive me.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12781.msg150142#msg150142 date=1326097464]
    Dear Copticandproud,
    Ignore that teaching please.. there is no such thing in any living language, so let's not make Coptic artificial... BTW, what is the rule for the letter "c" in English?
    Oujai



    Actually my english teacher couple of years ago told me that there was a rule but since english evolves so fast the rule is not accurate anymore. Back to coptic, I just heard some one says epi ebros efshes tasete the other day... I guess I am going to ride the epi ebros efkes tasete bandwagon since there is no right or wrong way of saying it...
  • Some old Arabic rites books suggest it as "brosawsha", but earlier recordings suggest "brosawka".. so either is valid..
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12781.msg150172#msg150172 date=1326150756]
    Some old Arabic rites books suggest it as "brosawsha", but earlier recordings suggest "brosawka".. so either is valid..
    Oujai



    Thank you... :)
  • Dear coptic and proud
    I small quandary in relation to the comment below. As far as I know, there has never been a SH sound in the entire history of the Greek language in all its forms; Ancient, Koine, Medieval, Classical and Modern. I would like to know where you learnt this rule from.

    Thank You. GB

    I honestly cannot find the source but I have been taught from two different people in two completely different continents that 'X' is pronounced K in all coptic words and SH if it is in greek and followed by the 'E' vowels and Kh in every other case...

  • Dear Coptic_Deacon,
    If you try to learn Coptic at the hands of people who studied it in Egypt (flawedly) you would understand where Copticnandproud is coming from. Because the Greek language pronounced "x" uniquely, it got transformed over the year in the Coptic language to "sh", as there was no matching sound in the Coptic language. Hence pronunciations like ,ere as /shara/, ar,y as /arshi/ ... etc... and that all means that the new teaching for Coptic language is flawed based on flawed principles...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12781.msg150227#msg150227 date=1326218266]
    Dear Coptic_Deacon,
    If you try to learn Coptic at the hands of people who studied it in Egypt (flawedly) you would understand where Copticnandproud is coming from. Because the Greek language pronounced "x" uniquely, it got transformed over the year in the Coptic language to "sh", as there was no matching sound in the Coptic language. Hence pronunciations like ,ere as /shara/, ar,y as /arshi/ ... etc... and that all means that the new teaching for Coptic language is flawed based on flawed principles...
    Oujai qen `P[C



    You are right about me learning on the hands of people who studied in Egypt part, but does that mean that the whole language is flawed that is some heavy stuff right there... Please elaborate more!
  • THere is what is called a Greco-Bohairic dialect, which is nothing more than a cover name for a flawed teaching based on a flawed principle. You can research material for authentic Coptic language on www.remenkimi.com...
    Oujai
  • OH MY GOD!!! Why didnot anybody tell me about this website before I was always wondering if there was any attempts to revive coptic!!! and here it is... THANK YOU this website is worth a fortune
  • Let me say on this thread, rather than starting a new one, that I am enjoying the intermediate intensive Coptic Language course at Kings College very much indeed. It is very intensive but the quality of the teaching is fantastic. For those who are interested we are doing Lambdin Chapters 11-20 this week.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12781.msg150234#msg150234 date=1326229978]
    Let me say on this thread, rather than starting a new one, that I am enjoying the intermediate intensive Coptic Language course at Kings College very much indeed. It is very intensive but the quality of the teaching is fantastic. For those who are interested we are doing Lambdin Chapters 11-20 this week.


    I'm so so gutted that I'm not there!
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12781.msg150234#msg150234 date=1326229978]
    Let me say on this thread, rather than starting a new one, that I am enjoying the intermediate intensive Coptic Language course at Kings College very much indeed. It is very intensive but the quality of the teaching is fantastic. For those who are interested we are doing Lambdin Chapters 11-20 this week.

    i wish i can have somthing like this in rutgers.....i am even having problems registering for a greek class before i graduate this may. but despite that, i decided to strengthen my java skills instead.
  • I'm hoping to organise an Armenian intensive language course in the Summer.

    I'm doing Sahidic at the moment of course. All you need to do is organise something yourself. Find a proper tutor, find a place, gather some students. Bingo.
  • Are you doing Eastern or Western Java? Classical or Modern?

    Do you do conversational Java?
  • Fr. Peter,

    If we ever meet, I'm going to ask you to say 'Bingo' in American English (I refuse to use the word 'accent', because we don't have one). I just never heard a Priest say 'Bingo' before; I'm looking forward to it.


  • Which dialect of American 'English' would you want me to use?
  • The one that comes natural to every human on earth: the way I speak.

    I don't understand why everyone has to pretend to sound weird just cause they live in different countries.
  • Are you from New York? Or California? Or Texas?

    Surely there are a great many ways to say 'Bingo' in American 'English'?

    Even more ways than are used to pronounce Coptic?
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