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Censing

copticuser20copticuser20
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Why are priests the only people who can cense? Why can Archdeacons give the blood but not use the censer? Also, can we burn incense in our homes?

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11439.msg137914#msg137914 date=1305396936]
    Why are priests the only people who can cense? Why can Archdeacons give the blood but not use the censer? Also, can we burn incense in our homes?

    "cense" really mean raising incense. The incense represent the prayers of the people that are being sent up. In our Church, that can be done by priests only. In other churches, i think there are also priest-deacons who can raise incense.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11439.msg137916#msg137916 date=1305398226]
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11439.msg137914#msg137914 date=1305396936]
    Why are priests the only people who can cense? Why can Archdeacons give the blood but not use the censer? Also, can we burn incense in our homes?

    "cense" really mean raising incense. The incense represent the prayers of the people that are being sent up. In our Church, that can be done by priests only. In other churches, i think there are also priest-deacons who can raise incense.

    In the Armenian church, deacons can sense. That is where my question came from. Is there any biblical/symbolic reason why only the priest can deliver the prayers?
  • geomike
    It may be because in the old testament only the Levites or priests were allowed to do this, but in revelations it says something like "I saw an angel sensing before the golden altar and the incense(smoke) rising was the prayers of the saints".
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Incense is a sacrifice.  Priests are the only ones to offer sacrifice.

    Strangely,  Coptic deacons can cense in Jerusalem, but in no other jurisdiction of the Coptic Orthodox Church.  They lead the way in processions and before a bishop, but they cannot offer incense before icons or the Holy Altar.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11439.msg137936#msg137936 date=1305414129]
    Incense is a sacrifice.  Priests are the only ones to offer sacrifice.

    Strangely,  Coptic deacons can cense in Jerusalem, but in no other jurisdiction of the Coptic Orthodox Church.  They lead the way in processions and before a bishop, but they cannot offer incense before icons or the Holy Altar.

    What is the difference between here and Jerusalem? (concerning rites of course)
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    It makes sense to me that the priest would be the one to raise incense in the church and not the deacon. However. the true question is whether or not people are allowed to burn incense in their homes. I've heard both yes and no from clergy. To me, it makes sense that people burn incense in their homes, as long as it is done in a respective manner during prayer, but i would really like to know the official church response. I know that it is common for Eastern Orthodox and even other Oriental Orthodox laymen to do so.

    PK
  • TimothymTimothym
    In the Eastern Orthodox church, the order is slightly opposite. The priest or bishop would be the one to hold the relic or icon while the altar servers ("deacons") would cense it. This is because the object being held is considered 'more important' than the incense being offered, therefore the priest would handle those things. Also when they give the censer to the priest at the altar, they always prepare it for him, ie. putt a couple pieces of incense on the coals before they hand it to him...whereas in the Coptic church, the priest is the one who puts the incense in the censer as a symbol of offering the incense on behalf of the people.

    As for incense in the home, we have a hand held censer and we usually burn some incense during our family prayers at home. Of course we don't swing a censer or anything like that but we do usually burn the incense. I know of many Orthodox families who do so, and among the elderly, they often cense the icons in the sign of the cross with the hand held censer (without strings) however I afaik this is just a pious custom amongst some people. It really does set the mood for prayer as it reminds us of being in church!
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    But what is the difference between having incense burning on a table and swinging a censer? Aren't you still offering incense?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    The Eastern Orthodox and their interpretation for things is different from the COC and its practice.

    The Armenians have their traditions and the COC has its own traditions and practice.
  • kyrillos123
    When sayedna anba youssef was at my house, my dad asked the question about censing at home. He answered if you are censing while for example watching a movie just because you like the smell. When you go to church and smell the inscence what are you going to do? Remember that movie! Im not sure about censing during prayer at home but thats what sayedna said.
  • TimothymTimothym
    Hmm, I'm not sure what the problem or the 'fear' is. Obviously you wouldn't put incense on while watching a movie but during prayers is something different. If we were to light candles before our icons and put a bit of incense on the burning coal, it doesn't mean we are taking over the priestly function...in a way, we are the 'priests' of our home in that we are responsible for the (spiritual) well being and prayer life of our families. At the end of the day, it isn't the incense and candles burning but the prayers themselves and the personal touch with God that really matters. Also, for small matters like this, of course we should listen to the advice of our priests when we request it.Cheers
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    Well, if that was how HG put it, then it seems as if he would be okay with burning incense during prayer.

    PK
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    By the way, what are the hand censors in the Eastern Orthodox traditions used for (the ones without the chains)? I've never seen one used in a church service but it seems odd that there are special censors that they provide for people to use at home.

    PK
  • TimothymTimothym
    AFAIK, the hand censers are used for semi-liturgical prayer. This could be prayer done in the home, at the gravesite, etc. Basically not for use in typical liturgical services within a church. The only time I've seen it being used in the EO church services is during certain times during Holy Week in which the priest uses it to cense the funeral bier (decked with flowers), and then the hand censer is placed beneath the Cross on the floor to let the incense burn before it. I've also seen monks (perhaps those who are not ordained monk priests) cense the congregation during matins with the hand censer whereas the full censer with chains is reserved for clergy period.

    I've heard that the hand censer originated out of ease of carrying and transporting. Hence, the priests use it during prayers at the gravesite. Also it could have been used as a way to do para-liturgical services within the home (reader services) when travelling to church proved impossible due to the circumstances.
  • meanzmeanz
    I thought full consecrated deacons can incense?? Right after the priest puts incense while remembering those who have departed.
    " Those, O Lord, and everyone whose names we have mentioned, and those whose names we have not mentioned........"
    I was taught that fully consecrated deacons can sense after this part but only in the alter icon. I am fairly certain i have seen it done as well by a visiting British Orthodox Deacon to my parish.
    Maybe this has changed i am not too sure.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    My understanding is that full deacons may cense, as they may offer communion from the chalice.
  • Unknown
    In the Older days in the coptic church, deacons could cense. I found logical proif of this in the liturgy of Saint Cyril. At a part of the liturgy, the serving priest is at the altar praying, while the assistant priest goes around the altar with the censer. In older, days, the idea of having more than one priest to a church was not as widespread as today, so it appears to me that the job of going around the altar with the censer was the job of the deacon. However, I see many reasons why our church does not allow the deacons to cense.

    1) The reality is that the coptic church is very disorganized in terms of it's ranks. VERY disorganized. In the BOC, as i have seen in their website, there is a descent ratio of Deacons to priests so the deacons actualy have a purpose. However, in the coptic church, there are minimal amounts of deacons, and when it comes to the lower ranks of deaconship, we are very slopppy in that case. We ordain 4 year old kids to Psaltos and the like. The reality is that the ranks of deaconship have lost their respect, and the elevation of ranks has basically been minimized.

    2) Building on the first point, there is an insufficient number of full deacons in the church. And those who we have as deacons, are quickly ordained priests. Some full deacons in the church choose to remain as laymen in terms of dresss and secular work. The deacons (by choosing not to be fully dedicated in terms of dress, beard, and job) and not permittted to distribute the blood, nor tke part in liturgical services as full deacons. As for those who are full deacons and are fully dedicated, and remains as deacons, it is still completely useless to have them cense since the priest already has the time to cense. There is no part in the liturgy where the priest part over laps with the censing in an inconveniant way, so there is no reason to allow the deacons to serve.
    In the Risen XC
    -Return Orthodoxy
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Sometimes someone is ordained as a full deacon in-reserve; in the event of an untimely issue for the priest during the Liturgy.
    Sometimes when a priest is very ill, there is a deacon ordained for a given church, sometimes quietly, in the event that the Deacon may have to assume the role of continuing the Liturgy from a time after the epiclesis.

    The diaconate is mostly a joke [sorry to say and sorry to put it that way] in the Coptic Church--a bad joke at that.

    From my understanding and in probing members of the Rituals Committee of the Holy Synod.  Offering incense is a sacrifice, sacrifice is only for the priest to offer.
  • TimothymTimothym
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11439.msg138468#msg138468 date=1306256183]
    The diaconate is mostly a joke [sorry to say and sorry to put it that way] in the Coptic Church--a bad joke at that.


    Its true and its a shame. We must try to revive the respect and honour due to the diaconate. Perhaps a start is by not allowing these young kids to be tonsured psaltos. Also clarifying the difference between 'tonsure' and 'ordination' is important. Tonsure is when you are basically given permission to undertake a role and service whereas ordination is a  sacrament. Thus, the psaltos/cantor as well as agnostos/reader is tonsured whereas subdeacons to arch-deacons are minor roles of the priesthood.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    An epsaltos is not tonsured.

    The rank of Reader is tonsured.

    An epsaltos is not ordained, he is given prayers and dispensation.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11439.msg138484#msg138484 date=1306270183]
    An epsaltos is not ordained, he is given prayers and dispensation.


    Seriously? I always thought and heard that it is an ordination.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    cu20,

    It's part of the 'let's make everyone a shamass'.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11439.msg138487#msg138487 date=1306272578]
    cu20,

    It's part of the 'let's make everyone a shamass'.

    Ah I see. wait so technically anyone can wear a tonia since there is no ordination?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    It requires an absolution and dispensation of chanting duties.  It is not an automatic thing.
  • TimothymTimothym
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11439.msg138484#msg138484 date=1306270183]
    An epsaltos is not tonsured.

    The rank of Reader is tonsured.

    An epsaltos is not ordained, he is given prayers and dispensation.


    Really, a psaltos is not tonsured? I always thought so...I wonder if it is the case in the EOC (btw it is psaltos and not epsaltos just like its Christos or Khristos and not Ekhristos and like filanthrope versus filanethrope...its an Arabic tendencay to want to add more vowels :)
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