Each bishop is father of his own diocese and so needs to deal with this himself. It might be good if the Synod issued an instruction, but it seems to me that the clear instructions from the 2009 synod are being ignored in any case.
My own bishop would not allow any of this, and nor would the priests, thank God.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg134053#msg134053 date=1301041659] Each bishop is father of his own diocese and so needs to deal with this himself. It might be good if the Synod issued an instruction, but it seems to me that the clear instructions from the 2009 synod are being ignored in any case.
My own bishop would not allow any of this, and nor would the priests, thank God.
With all due respect Fr Peter to you and your Bishop, but if our bishops allow this, why should I continue going to the Coptic Church for?? I left the charismatic catholic community to have an Orthodox life, and if our priests are apathetic towards what is Orthodox, then why be upset if I want to eat souvlaki, break plates and join the Greek Orthodox Church???
The Coptic Youth in the UK are strongly affiliated with a protestant /charismatic church called Holy Trinity Brompton, or HTB.
This Church has founded what's called the "alpha" course, its to educate people about Christianity.
The problem is that the youth in our Church like this ministry very much and incorporate their spirituality into our Church thinking that "its all OK". But Its not!!
Our basic soteriology is totally different than protestants.
Ask a protestant WHY Christ came and died for us, and how we have eternal life? Ask the SAME question to an Orthodox Christian (EO or OO!!) - and you'll get a different answer.
They are already excommunicated from the Body of Christ, and their spirituality reflects a dry , sort of morbid personality - like a vine that has been severed from the branch it was attached to.
They are very dry indeed.
We are not judging persons. Im sure they are all nice people who like to take care of the environment and buy Cliff Richard songs; but ultimately, we are concerned that
a) Our identity as an Orthodox Church is being diluted by an infiltration of protestant spirituality through our own congregation attending such meetings at HTB b) Our youth are being misled by a spirituality that is totally incorrect and against Orthodox teachings.
They haven't even had the humility to appreciate their own Church before embarking on another!!
Such arrogance!!!!!!! And they encourage other Copts to go along with them!!!!!???
If I may, again, suggest something, I would like to speak to the HTB and Alpha Course controversy. While the Alpha course in it's content is heretical (at best), it was created to serve a particular purpose which has always been there over the last few hundred years since Orthodoxy was exposed to the onslaught of Protestantism, the iron clutch of Communism, the oppression of Islam, and the ecumenism of Catholicism--there are many in our holy Orthodox faith who are, for example, growing up in churches where:
a) the services are done largely in languages that are not their first (ie: Arabic, Slavonic, Ukrainian, Coptic, Romanian, Greek, etc.) and thus do not understand what is all being taught. There are an increasing number of parishes moving toward using largely (if not, entirely) the local language (ie: in Canada and the US it is English, Spanish, and French; in UK it is English; in France it is French; in Central and parts of SA it is Spanish; in Portugal and Brazil it is Portugese, etc.). The holy Fathers forbade the use of languages in worship that the people did not understand. Anyway, the point of this point is that our young people want to learn about the Lord, and are being cheated out of that opportunity because they don't understand the language. b) many parishes (at least this is the case in Canada and the US) do not offer all the services of the Church, just Vespers, sometimes Orthros, and Divine Liturgies--and in many parts of Western Canada, for example, there aren't even enough priests to have services in every parish every weekend and in many cases only once a month or every 6 weeks. This is saddening, since it is the services that teach us the Faith.
And these are two of many reasons. But anyway, as I was saying, the concept of Alpha honourable and is excellent, but the content taught is of the enemy. There is some the ICOS came out with that would be extremely beneficial to Orthodox communities (it was designed and compiled by Orthodox clergy and lay people for Orthodox Christians). It's called, "The Way," and I think it's worth checking out: http://www.iocs.cam.ac.uk/courses/courses_way.html.
If I could tag someone like we do on Facebook, I'd be tagging Fr. Peter and Zoxasi. Please check it out and it may be beneficial to share thoughts. This may be an excellent way to reach out to our youth who are walking around in enemy territory and drinking of the waters of wormwood.
George Bebawy has been excommunicated from the Coptic Church. He has dangerous teaching concerning the concepts of Salvation, Judgment, Sin, Redemption, and Divination.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11053.msg134083#msg134083 date=1301063425] George Bebawy has been excommunicated from the Coptic Church. He has dangerous teaching concerning the concepts of Salvation, Judgment, Sin, Redemption, and Divination.
Orthodoxy is about trusting in the hierarchy of the Church, and doing and following the apostolic traditions. It makes life easy being Orthodox: we don't have to search for the truth, we are the truth.
I think in the UK, they are ALL doing the Alpha Course. But - what we should evangelise is the Church of God. The conclusion of the Alpha Course is NOT the Apostolic Church.
Wow, you have opened my eyes on a whole area that I have never know. We do not have this course in the Coptic churches in the US and I believe we do not have in Canada.
I know Zoxsasi mentioned his church but Is it a real problem in the other Coptic churches in England?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11053.msg134091#msg134091 date=1301067039] Wow, you have opened my eyes on a whole area that I have never know. We do not have this course in the Coptic churches in the US and I believe we do not have in Canada.
I know Zoxsasi mentioned his church but Is it a real problem in the other Coptic churches in England?
Thanks.
Its a HUGE problem. But then its getting worse everywhere.. some guy from North America logged onto Tasbeha.org to tell everyone that they are playing guitars in their church during the prayer meetings.
Maybe this is our fault... have we explained to them WHAT Orthodoxy is?? The priests are not doing their jobs in the UK. They are at fault also.
Fr. Arsenious Serry, in Canada (may God repose his soul) - he would have gone CRAZY had he seen this. He was a very orthodox priest. I can't deny that.
I really don't care WHAT Orthodox christians do in their personal lives, I don't... but DO NOT DO IT IN THE CHURCH BUILDINGS ITSELF.
(at the very least).
Fr. Arsenious wouldn't have even baptised a catholic at all, and would have NEVER baptised a protestant woman who wanted to get married to an Orthodox man. This stuff goes on now like its normal. Its the priest's fault.
Im leaving the COC.. seriously. Im going to tell my kids that Charismatic movement is wrong, and let them grow up in the COC to see that there are priests and bishops condoning and even promoting this spirituality!!
What for??
The Greeks are very outspoken about this. ALL OF THEM. And the Russians. I'm very sad, because i genuinely love the COC.
Playing guitar in the church itself, the sanctuary, is not a big deal so long as it is not done during the liturgical prayers. In other words, it is ok if it is a spiritual meeting.
Let me explain my rationale.
Some churches are small and do not have enough space to host a large meeting so they have to use the sanctuary. Churches in Egypt have been doing so for the last 40 years.
I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is using any musical instruments during the liturgical prayers. Of course there should be control on the content of the meeting but that is a different issue.
Here is news from a PENTECOSTAL Church in Wales...
July 8th saw the final evening of our current Alpha course. As well as great food, the talk and group discussion our evening included a poem written by one of our Alpha course members who comes from Egypt and he also sang us a worship song in Coptic!
When you talk to the Coptic priests, those who came from Egypt, and confront them about this course and tell them that it is Charismatic, what response do you get?
imikhail, such a thing should never take place in the sanctuary.
Worship in the Orthodox tradition is NOT accompanied by musical instruments. It is wrong to distinguish between worship on one context and in another. All worship must be Orthodox.
There is scope perhaps for someone singing a poem they had written in a concert or something similar with a discrete guitar accompaniment, but not in any worship of the Church. Indeed such modern worship songs are rejected and condemned by the Fathers.
Once we allow modern evangelical Protestant worship in the door then the Church is already becoming Protestant.
When you talk to the Coptic priests, those who came from Egypt, and confront them about this course and tell them that it is Charismatic, what response do you get?
Thanks.
Well, I admit, the priests I know do not necessarily condone all this, but I find them very scared or nervous to draw their attention.
They don't say anything. But perhaps they are being polite?? The priests in the UK are EXTRAORDINARILY polite and gentle - but I don't think its true.
I think its fake.
Let me tell you a small story:
A priest took me to a prayer meeting once with the "Charismatic Group" in the UK. It was a Bible study group. Its the group that go to HTB, sing songs, clap hands, go and serve with Anba Boulis.. u get the picture.
The priest was obviously going to be the one giving the talk. SO - this is what happens. He reads the passage in the Bible of the sinner that kissed our Lord's feet. He made a simple remark that I've heard in EVERY SINGLE Orthodox Church, and that is VERY orthodox indeed:
"My friends, never forget your sins. To forget your sins, this is a big mistake..."
One of the girls there responded immediately and said "But Fr!!!! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!? Christ has forgotten our sins, yet you are remembering them! You'll be depressed!!!"
The priest just listened to her quietly.
She started to get really upset and she continued: "But Father!!!! That is wrong what you are saying! Where in the Bible does it say you ought to remember your sins???!!!!"
The priest just listened. Everyone was quiet (yes, including me, if you can believe that). And I felt pretty bad for the priest. He just listened.
There was an awkward silence in fact... it wasn't friendly.
The Bible Study ended and we went home. I obviously came with the priest and his wife, so I left with them. I got in the car, and I wanted to ask the priest something to cheer him up..." He LOOKED calm, he acted calm, and then he said to me "LOOK!! SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, SO LONG AS YOU DONT ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS!!"
Now... that's fine. But that means that he wasn't calm. That means that he felt weak during that meeting and couldn't defend himself. In fact, he's been unable to defend himself AND orthodoxy. Yet - as you've seen, his personality IS VERY Orthodox (biblically at least!).
Many of us left that day thinking that because Abouna didn't answer, that the girl was right. I spoke to her about it afterwards, and she was quite smug and said: "See... its quite obvious basically, not everything abouna says is right.. and if you remembered your sins you'd go crazy with depression".
That was 6 years ago!!
Six years, and she hasn't been corrected. Six years, and how many others has she confused??
And for six years, this priest hasn't had the confidence to even express his belief amongst them. He told me once that its the salt that seasons the salad, not the salad. But he has failed in seasoning their lack of understanding.
His Holiness Pope Shenouda, in his book : Comparative THeology states that forgetting your sins is VERY protestant! BELIEVE IT OR NOT. In fact, its a point of difference.
In replying to this point, we put before them the incident of the people of Israel eating the Passover lamb: In the midst of their joy for their salvation from the sword of the Angel of Death, they had to eat the Passover lamb with bitter herbs, according to the Lord's command (Ex.12: 8). The bitter herbs reminded them of their sins because of which they were enslaved to Pharaoh. It is true that eating the Passover lamb reminded them of salvation and its joy but the lamb had to be eaten with bitter herbs.
What is the position of bitter herbs in repentance according to the Protestant concept? One of the Protestant books even attacked the phrase “Lord have mercy” which we say in our prayers! It also attacked all the phrases of contrition, condemning them to be against the joy of salvation.
Forgetting your sins IS very dangerous indeed. It leads to self righteousness. It leads to condemning others. It makes you forget HOW MUCH you need God's salvation and Grace!!!
In fact, Our Lord asks us to remember our sins when we say Forgive us Our Sins as we forgive those who trespass against us.
I must remember what debts have been paid for me, for me to pardon the debts of others.
As His Holiness pointed out, God HIMSELF asked the Israelites to make the passover meal WITH BITTER herbs so that they NEVER FORGET their time as slaves (i.e. their bondage to sin).
God forgets your sins.. who said YOU should forget them!???
So, this girl feels that by remembering her sins, she will be depressed:
This is the proof that her spiritual life and understanding is flawed and unhealthy.
And this particular person is the one going to HTB, encouraging others to go to HTB, and she's even learning their spirituality.
If you want an orthodox congregation, get yourself an Orthodox priest. If you want a protestant congregation, get yourself a protestant orthodox priest.
Well, I admit, the priests I know do not necessarily condone all this, but I find them very scared or nervous to draw their attention.
They don't say anything. But perhaps they are being polite?? The priests in the UK are EXTRAORDINARILY polite and gentle - but I don't think its true.
I think its fake.
Let me tell you a small story:
A priest took me to a prayer meeting once with the "Charismatic Group" in the UK. It was a Bible study group. Its the group that go to HTB, sing songs, clap hands, go and serve with Anba Boulis.. u get the picture.
The priest was obviously going to be the one giving the talk. SO - this is what happens. He reads the passage in the Bible of the sinner that kissed our Lord's feet. He made a simple remark that I've heard in EVERY SINGLE Orthodox Church, and that is VERY orthodox indeed:
"My friends, never forget your sins. To forget your sins, this is a big mistake..."
One of the girls there responded immediately and said "But Fr!!!! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!? Christ has forgotten our sins, yet you are remembering them! You'll be depressed!!!"
The priest just listened to her quietly.
She started to get really upset and she continued: "But Father!!!! That is wrong what you are saying! Where in the Bible does it say you ought to remember your sins???!!!!"
The priest just listened. Everyone was quiet (yes, including me, if you can believe that). And I felt pretty bad for the priest. He just listened.
There was an awkward silence in fact... it wasn't friendly.
The Bible Study ended and we went home. I obviously came with the priest and his wife, so I left with them. I got in the car, and I wanted to ask the priest something to cheer him up..." He LOOKED calm, he acted calm, and then he said to me "LOOK!! SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, SO LONG AS YOU DONT ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS!!"
Now... that's fine. But that means that he wasn't calm. That means that he felt weak during that meeting and couldn't defend himself. In fact, he's been unable to defend himself AND orthodoxy. Yet - as you've seen, his personality IS VERY Orthodox (biblically at least!).
Many of us left that day thinking that because Abouna didn't answer, that the girl was right. I spoke to her about it afterwards, and she was quite smug and said: "See... its quite obvious basically, not everything abouna says is right.. and if you remembered your sins you'd go crazy with depression".
That was 6 years ago!!
Six years, and she hasn't been corrected. Six years, and how many others has she confused??
And for six years, this priest hasn't had the confidence to even express his belief amongst them. He told me once that its the salt that seasons the salad, not the salad. But he has failed in seasoning their lack of understanding.
His Holiness Pope Shenouda, in his book : Comparative THeology states that forgetting your sins is VERY protestant! BELIEVE IT OR NOT. In fact, its a point of difference.
In replying to this point, we put before them the incident of the people of Israel eating the Passover lamb: In the midst of their joy for their salvation from the sword of the Angel of Death, they had to eat the Passover lamb with bitter herbs, according to the Lord's command (Ex.12: . The bitter herbs reminded them of their sins because of which they were enslaved to Pharaoh. It is true that eating the Passover lamb reminded them of salvation and its joy but the lamb had to be eaten with bitter herbs.
What is the position of bitter herbs in repentance according to the Protestant concept? One of the Protestant books even attacked the phrase “Lord have mercy” which we say in our prayers! It also attacked all the phrases of contrition, condemning them to be against the joy of salvation.
Forgetting your sins IS very dangerous indeed. It leads to self righteousness. It leads to condemning others. It makes you forget HOW MUCH you need God's salvation and Grace!!!
In fact, Our Lord asks us to remember our sins when we say Forgive us Our Sins as we forgive those who trespass against us.
I must remember what debts have been paid for me, for me to pardon the debts of others.
As His Holiness pointed out, God HIMSELF asked the Israelites to make the passover meal WITH BITTER herbs so that they NEVER FORGET their time as slaves (i.e. their bondage to sin).
God forgets your sins.. who said YOU should forget them!???
So, this girl feels that by remembering her sins, she will be depressed:
This is the proof that her spiritual life and understanding is flawed and unhealthy.
And this particular person is the one going to HTB, encouraging others to go to HTB, and she's even learning their spirituality.
If you want an orthodox congregation, get yourself an Orthodox priest. If you want a protestant congregation, get yourself a protestant orthodox priest.
How can this be allowed - from the Alpha Course website...
North Africa: Bishop Paul of the Coptic Church in North Africa spoke of his desire to see Alpha running in Coptic churches all over the continent. He said, “Currently we are teaching the Alpha course in different areas in Africa in our Coptic churches. People have a great, great expectation for the Alpha course.”
The Alpha Course is NOT Orthodox. This is why I long for the support to be able to help create a properly and thoroughly Coptic Orthodox course.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg134105#msg134105 date=1301074154] How can this be allowed - from the Alpha Course website...
North Africa: Bishop Paul of the Coptic Church in North Africa spoke of his desire to see Alpha running in Coptic churches all over the continent. He said, “Currently we are teaching the Alpha course in different areas in Africa in our Coptic churches. People have a great, great expectation for the Alpha course.”
The Alpha Course is NOT Orthodox. This is why I long for the support to be able to help create a properly and thoroughly Coptic Orthodox course.
Father Peter
That's your answer: BISHOP PAUL.
That's the sole driver of all of this.
You have to deal with it. Its not my place. I met the man like 2 or 3 times, yeah, ok.. he's funny and very charming, and a charismatic personality, but what can I tell u??
If its any consolation, there are a few senior bishops who disapprove of his ways.
Worship in the Orthodox tradition is NOT accompanied by musical instruments. It is wrong to distinguish between worship on one context and in another. All worship must be Orthodox.
Fr. Peter,
I am 1000% agree with you. I see I did not make myself clear.
I am referring to ceremonies like New Year's Eve when the kids stand to say some songs.
I am sorry I will be blunt regarding the story you just mentioned. The priest was not biblically knowledgeable enough to answer that girl. He could have approached the question from different angles.
Let me just go through some points:
Our Lord Jesus warned us to cut off our arms, feet and pluck our eyes if they cause us to sin. How can I train my members not to sin if I do not remember my sin. Just like training a child, you have to keep reminding so he/she won't do the same thing again
St Paul says in Romans 7: "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?". My question is why would he say this if God forgave him his sins. This is Paul the philosopher saying this, the one who said that he toiled the most.
In the same chapter, St Paul says: "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me" Now, he says sin is dwelling in him for he is still in the weak tent under the pangs of the flesh. If I do not remember my sins then I am an illusionist, for I forget that I am still live under the weakness of the flesh. How can I train my flesh not to sin if I forget my sins.
There are many verses in the Bible that have this idea.
In fact, I have a question for those who say one should not remember on's sins. Am I already in heaven enjoying the company of the saints and the angels with no sun to bother me or darkness to cloud my eyes.
People who believe this heresy should be humble and realize that they are still in flesh and will sin for no one without sin even if his life is only one day.
Please conclude whatever you want dear friend.. Fr. Peter knows how much I am frustrated over this... if the priest is knowledgeable or not - i couldnt care less. He said something Orthodox and was corrected by a girl!!!
So George Bebawy teaches that you should forget your sins???
I have Fr. Matta El Meskeen's "Orthodox Prayer Life" (in translation from SVS Press), and read quite a bit of it before discovering the issues around this man. I still like what I read, but I have not picked it up again to finish it because I figure there are other works from less controversial authors that I could read. Maybe when I am stronger in the faith I can pick it up again, under the guidance of an Orthodox spiritual father so that I can be guarded against any potentially dangerous ideas that might be in there.
It occurs to me that this work and others by El Meskeen are still sold by various Coptic websites I have seen (to say nothing of the EO, Catholic, and even Protestant works I've also seen for sale from CO sources). I think that this is part of the overall problem: Even if there are problems with various works, they are still presented to the Orthodox alongside works that actually are fitting with correct spirituality. It is the "Protestant hymn" problem discussed earlier with reference to Tasbeha, times however many thousands of places that Orthodox are presented with unorthodox materials. Everyone recognizes what should be, but what is offered is often something less. I do not know why that is.
Comments
My own bishop would not allow any of this, and nor would the priests, thank God.
Each bishop is father of his own diocese and so needs to deal with this himself. It might be good if the Synod issued an instruction, but it seems to me that the clear instructions from the 2009 synod are being ignored in any case.
My own bishop would not allow any of this, and nor would the priests, thank God.
With all due respect Fr Peter to you and your Bishop, but if our bishops allow this, why should I continue going to the Coptic Church for?? I left the charismatic catholic community to have an Orthodox life, and if our priests are apathetic towards what is Orthodox, then why be upset if I want to eat souvlaki, break plates and join the Greek Orthodox Church???
The entire culture in our Church isn't Orthodox.
Can someone sunmarize for me what affect she had on the coptic curches in egypt from the alpha courses to the charismatic way of praying, ....etc.
Thanks
This Church has founded what's called the "alpha" course, its to educate people about Christianity.
The problem is that the youth in our Church like this ministry very much and incorporate their spirituality into our Church thinking that "its all OK". But Its not!!
Our basic soteriology is totally different than protestants.
Ask a protestant WHY Christ came and died for us, and how we have eternal life?
Ask the SAME question to an Orthodox Christian (EO or OO!!) - and you'll get a different answer.
They are already excommunicated from the Body of Christ, and their spirituality reflects a dry , sort of morbid personality - like a vine that has been severed from the branch it was attached to.
They are very dry indeed.
We are not judging persons. Im sure they are all nice people who like to take care of the environment and buy Cliff Richard songs; but ultimately, we are concerned that
a) Our identity as an Orthodox Church is being diluted by an infiltration of protestant spirituality through our own congregation attending such meetings at HTB
b) Our youth are being misled by a spirituality that is totally incorrect and against Orthodox teachings.
They haven't even had the humility to appreciate their own Church before embarking on another!!
Such arrogance!!!!!!! And they encourage other Copts to go along with them!!!!!???
Ouuuuff!!!
a) the services are done largely in languages that are not their first (ie: Arabic, Slavonic, Ukrainian, Coptic, Romanian, Greek, etc.) and thus do not understand what is all being taught. There are an increasing number of parishes moving toward using largely (if not, entirely) the local language (ie: in Canada and the US it is English, Spanish, and French; in UK it is English; in France it is French; in Central and parts of SA it is Spanish; in Portugal and Brazil it is Portugese, etc.). The holy Fathers forbade the use of languages in worship that the people did not understand. Anyway, the point of this point is that our young people want to learn about the Lord, and are being cheated out of that opportunity because they don't understand the language.
b) many parishes (at least this is the case in Canada and the US) do not offer all the services of the Church, just Vespers, sometimes Orthros, and Divine Liturgies--and in many parts of Western Canada, for example, there aren't even enough priests to have services in every parish every weekend and in many cases only once a month or every 6 weeks. This is saddening, since it is the services that teach us the Faith.
And these are two of many reasons. But anyway, as I was saying, the concept of Alpha honourable and is excellent, but the content taught is of the enemy. There is some the ICOS came out with that would be extremely beneficial to Orthodox communities (it was designed and compiled by Orthodox clergy and lay people for Orthodox Christians). It's called, "The Way," and I think it's worth checking out: http://www.iocs.cam.ac.uk/courses/courses_way.html.
If I could tag someone like we do on Facebook, I'd be tagging Fr. Peter and Zoxasi. Please check it out and it may be beneficial to share thoughts. This may be an excellent way to reach out to our youth who are walking around in enemy territory and drinking of the waters of wormwood.
Can someone kindly tell me what his status is in the Coptic Orthodox Church? Are we allowed to attend his lectures?
Thanks
Thanks.
How many Coptic Churches in England are implementing this Alpha course?
Can you point me to where I can find more about this Alpha thing?
Thanks.
George Bebawy has been excommunicated from the Coptic Church. He has dangerous teaching concerning the concepts of Salvation, Judgment, Sin, Redemption, and Divination.
Thanks.
OK.. well, its pointless then to attend an Orthodox meeting (http://www.iocs.cam.ac.uk/courses/courses_way.html) with him as a guest speaker Mr Vandenbrink.
Orthodoxy is about trusting in the hierarchy of the Church, and doing and following the apostolic traditions. It makes life easy being Orthodox: we don't have to search for the truth, we are the truth.
I think in the UK, they are ALL doing the Alpha Course. But - what we should evangelise is the Church of God. The conclusion of the Alpha Course is NOT the Apostolic Church.
I know Zoxsasi mentioned his church but Is it a real problem in the other Coptic churches in England?
Thanks.
Wow, you have opened my eyes on a whole area that I have never know. We do not have this course in the Coptic churches in the US and I believe we do not have in Canada.
I know Zoxsasi mentioned his church but Is it a real problem in the other Coptic churches in England?
Thanks.
Its a HUGE problem. But then its getting worse everywhere.. some guy from North America logged onto Tasbeha.org to tell everyone that they are playing guitars in their church during the prayer meetings.
Maybe this is our fault... have we explained to them WHAT Orthodoxy is?? The priests are not doing their jobs in the UK. They are at fault also.
Fr. Arsenious Serry, in Canada (may God repose his soul) - he would have gone CRAZY had he seen this. He was a very orthodox priest. I can't deny that.
I really don't care WHAT Orthodox christians do in their personal lives, I don't... but DO NOT DO IT IN THE CHURCH BUILDINGS ITSELF.
(at the very least).
Fr. Arsenious wouldn't have even baptised a catholic at all, and would have NEVER baptised a protestant woman who wanted to get married to an Orthodox man. This stuff goes on now like its normal. Its the priest's fault.
Im leaving the COC.. seriously. Im going to tell my kids that Charismatic movement is wrong, and let them grow up in the COC to see that there are priests and bishops condoning and even promoting this spirituality!!
What for??
The Greeks are very outspoken about this. ALL OF THEM. And the Russians. I'm very sad, because i genuinely love the COC.
This is a disaster.
Playing guitar in the church itself, the sanctuary, is not a big deal so long as it is not done during the liturgical prayers. In other words, it is ok if it is a spiritual meeting.
Let me explain my rationale.
Some churches are small and do not have enough space to host a large meeting so they have to use the sanctuary. Churches in Egypt have been doing so for the last 40 years.
I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is using any musical instruments during the liturgical prayers. Of course there should be control on the content of the meeting but that is a different issue.
Thanks.
July 8th saw the final evening of our current Alpha course. As well as great food, the talk and group discussion our evening included a poem written by one of our Alpha course members who comes from Egypt and he also sang us a worship song in Coptic!
Thanks.
I am curious.
When you talk to the Coptic priests, those who came from Egypt, and confront them about this course and tell them that it is Charismatic, what response do you get?
Thanks.
Worship in the Orthodox tradition is NOT accompanied by musical instruments. It is wrong to distinguish between worship on one context and in another. All worship must be Orthodox.
There is scope perhaps for someone singing a poem they had written in a concert or something similar with a discrete guitar accompaniment, but not in any worship of the Church. Indeed such modern worship songs are rejected and condemned by the Fathers.
Once we allow modern evangelical Protestant worship in the door then the Church is already becoming Protestant.
Father Peter
http://www.htb.org.uk/social-transformation/coptic-mission
Why is Holy Trinity Brompton advertising for Evangelical Pentecostal christians to go and serve at the Coptic Orthodox mission in Kenya?
How is this possible????
Zoxsasi,
I am curious.
When you talk to the Coptic priests, those who came from Egypt, and confront them about this course and tell them that it is Charismatic, what response do you get?
Thanks.
Well, I admit, the priests I know do not necessarily condone all this, but I find them very scared or nervous to draw their attention.
They don't say anything. But perhaps they are being polite?? The priests in the UK are EXTRAORDINARILY polite and gentle - but I don't think its true.
I think its fake.
Let me tell you a small story:
A priest took me to a prayer meeting once with the "Charismatic Group" in the UK. It was a Bible study group.
Its the group that go to HTB, sing songs, clap hands, go and serve with Anba Boulis.. u get the picture.
The priest was obviously going to be the one giving the talk. SO - this is what happens. He reads the passage in the Bible of the sinner that kissed our Lord's feet. He made a simple remark that I've heard in EVERY SINGLE Orthodox Church, and that is VERY orthodox indeed:
"My friends, never forget your sins. To forget your sins, this is a big mistake..."
One of the girls there responded immediately and said "But Fr!!!! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!? Christ has forgotten our sins, yet you are remembering them! You'll be depressed!!!"
The priest just listened to her quietly.
She started to get really upset and she continued: "But Father!!!! That is wrong what you are saying! Where in the Bible does it say you ought to remember your sins???!!!!"
The priest just listened. Everyone was quiet (yes, including me, if you can believe that). And I felt pretty bad for the priest. He just listened.
There was an awkward silence in fact... it wasn't friendly.
The Bible Study ended and we went home. I obviously came with the priest and his wife, so I left with them. I got in the car, and I wanted to ask the priest something to cheer him up..." He LOOKED calm, he acted calm, and then he said to me "LOOK!! SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, SO LONG AS YOU DONT ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS!!"
Now... that's fine. But that means that he wasn't calm. That means that he felt weak during that meeting and couldn't defend himself. In fact, he's been unable to defend himself AND orthodoxy. Yet - as you've seen, his personality IS VERY Orthodox (biblically at least!).
Many of us left that day thinking that because Abouna didn't answer, that the girl was right. I spoke to her about it afterwards, and she was quite smug and said: "See... its quite obvious basically, not everything abouna says is right.. and if you remembered your sins you'd go crazy with depression".
That was 6 years ago!!
Six years, and she hasn't been corrected.
Six years, and how many others has she confused??
And for six years, this priest hasn't had the confidence to even express his belief amongst them. He told me once that its the salt that seasons the salad, not the salad. But he has failed in seasoning their lack of understanding.
His Holiness Pope Shenouda, in his book : Comparative THeology states that forgetting your sins is VERY protestant! BELIEVE IT OR NOT. In fact, its a point of difference.
Now - go here http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf - and read page 193.
Here's what he says: Forgetting your sins IS very dangerous indeed. It leads to self righteousness. It leads to condemning others. It makes you forget HOW MUCH you need God's salvation and Grace!!!
In fact, Our Lord asks us to remember our sins when we say Forgive us Our Sins as we forgive those who trespass against us.
I must remember what debts have been paid for me, for me to pardon the debts of others.
As His Holiness pointed out, God HIMSELF asked the Israelites to make the passover meal WITH BITTER herbs so that they NEVER FORGET their time as slaves (i.e. their bondage to sin).
God forgets your sins.. who said YOU should forget them!???
So, this girl feels that by remembering her sins, she will be depressed:
This is the proof that her spiritual life and understanding is flawed and unhealthy.
And this particular person is the one going to HTB, encouraging others to go to HTB, and she's even learning their spirituality.
If you want an orthodox congregation, get yourself an Orthodox priest.
If you want a protestant congregation, get yourself a protestant orthodox priest.
Its that simple.
They don't say anything. But perhaps they are being polite?? The priests in the UK are EXTRAORDINARILY polite and gentle - but I don't think its true.
I think its fake.
Let me tell you a small story:
A priest took me to a prayer meeting once with the "Charismatic Group" in the UK. It was a Bible study group.
Its the group that go to HTB, sing songs, clap hands, go and serve with Anba Boulis.. u get the picture.
The priest was obviously going to be the one giving the talk. SO - this is what happens. He reads the passage in the Bible of the sinner that kissed our Lord's feet. He made a simple remark that I've heard in EVERY SINGLE Orthodox Church, and that is VERY orthodox indeed:
"My friends, never forget your sins. To forget your sins, this is a big mistake..."
One of the girls there responded immediately and said "But Fr!!!! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!!? Christ has forgotten our sins, yet you are remembering them! You'll be depressed!!!"
The priest just listened to her quietly.
She started to get really upset and she continued: "But Father!!!! That is wrong what you are saying! Where in the Bible does it say you ought to remember your sins???!!!!"
The priest just listened. Everyone was quiet (yes, including me, if you can believe that). And I felt pretty bad for the priest. He just listened.
There was an awkward silence in fact... it wasn't friendly.
The Bible Study ended and we went home. I obviously came with the priest and his wife, so I left with them. I got in the car, and I wanted to ask the priest something to cheer him up..." He LOOKED calm, he acted calm, and then he said to me "LOOK!! SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, SO LONG AS YOU DONT ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS!!"
Now... that's fine. But that means that he wasn't calm. That means that he felt weak during that meeting and couldn't defend himself. In fact, he's been unable to defend himself AND orthodoxy. Yet - as you've seen, his personality IS VERY Orthodox (biblically at least!).
Many of us left that day thinking that because Abouna didn't answer, that the girl was right. I spoke to her about it afterwards, and she was quite smug and said: "See... its quite obvious basically, not everything abouna says is right.. and if you remembered your sins you'd go crazy with depression".
That was 6 years ago!!
Six years, and she hasn't been corrected.
Six years, and how many others has she confused??
And for six years, this priest hasn't had the confidence to even express his belief amongst them. He told me once that its the salt that seasons the salad, not the salad. But he has failed in seasoning their lack of understanding.
His Holiness Pope Shenouda, in his book : Comparative THeology states that forgetting your sins is VERY protestant! BELIEVE IT OR NOT. In fact, its a point of difference.
Now - go here http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf - and read page 193.
Here's what he says: Forgetting your sins IS very dangerous indeed. It leads to self righteousness. It leads to condemning others. It makes you forget HOW MUCH you need God's salvation and Grace!!!
In fact, Our Lord asks us to remember our sins when we say Forgive us Our Sins as we forgive those who trespass against us.
I must remember what debts have been paid for me, for me to pardon the debts of others.
As His Holiness pointed out, God HIMSELF asked the Israelites to make the passover meal WITH BITTER herbs so that they NEVER FORGET their time as slaves (i.e. their bondage to sin).
God forgets your sins.. who said YOU should forget them!???
So, this girl feels that by remembering her sins, she will be depressed:
This is the proof that her spiritual life and understanding is flawed and unhealthy.
And this particular person is the one going to HTB, encouraging others to go to HTB, and she's even learning their spirituality.
If you want an orthodox congregation, get yourself an Orthodox priest.
If you want a protestant congregation, get yourself a protestant orthodox priest.
Its that simple.
North Africa: Bishop Paul of the Coptic Church in North Africa spoke of his desire to see Alpha running in Coptic churches all over the continent. He said, “Currently we are teaching the Alpha course in different areas in Africa in our Coptic churches. People have a great, great expectation for the Alpha course.”
The Alpha Course is NOT Orthodox. This is why I long for the support to be able to help create a properly and thoroughly Coptic Orthodox course.
Father Peter
How can this be allowed - from the Alpha Course website...
North Africa: Bishop Paul of the Coptic Church in North Africa spoke of his desire to see Alpha running in Coptic churches all over the continent. He said, “Currently we are teaching the Alpha course in different areas in Africa in our Coptic churches. People have a great, great expectation for the Alpha course.”
The Alpha Course is NOT Orthodox. This is why I long for the support to be able to help create a properly and thoroughly Coptic Orthodox course.
Father Peter
That's your answer: BISHOP PAUL.
That's the sole driver of all of this.
You have to deal with it. Its not my place. I met the man like 2 or 3 times, yeah, ok.. he's funny and very charming, and a charismatic personality, but what can I tell u??
If its any consolation, there are a few senior bishops who disapprove of his ways.
I am 1000% agree with you. I see I did not make myself clear.
I am referring to ceremonies like New Year's Eve when the kids stand to say some songs.
Thanks.
Thanks.
I am sorry I will be blunt regarding the story you just mentioned. The priest was not biblically knowledgeable enough to answer that girl. He could have approached the question from different angles.
Let me just go through some points:
Our Lord Jesus warned us to cut off our arms, feet and pluck our eyes if they cause us to sin. How can I train my members not to sin if I do not remember my sin. Just like training a child, you have to keep reminding so he/she won't do the same thing again
St Paul says in Romans 7: "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?". My question is why would he say this if God forgave him his sins. This is Paul the philosopher saying this, the one who said that he toiled the most.
In the same chapter, St Paul says: "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me" Now, he says sin is dwelling in him for he is still in the weak tent under the pangs of the flesh. If I do not remember my sins then I am an illusionist, for I forget that I am still live under the weakness of the flesh. How can I train my flesh not to sin if I forget my sins.
There are many verses in the Bible that have this idea.
In fact, I have a question for those who say one should not remember on's sins. Am I already in heaven enjoying the company of the saints and the angels with no sun to bother me or darkness to cloud my eyes.
People who believe this heresy should be humble and realize that they are still in flesh and will sin for no one without sin even if his life is only one day.
Thanks
Please conclude whatever you want dear friend.. Fr. Peter knows how much I am frustrated over this... if the priest is knowledgeable or not - i couldnt care less. He said something Orthodox and was corrected by a girl!!!
So George Bebawy teaches that you should forget your sins???
There are a number of Copts who consider Fr. Matta as their spirital leader and still hold his ideas.
Thanks.
It occurs to me that this work and others by El Meskeen are still sold by various Coptic websites I have seen (to say nothing of the EO, Catholic, and even Protestant works I've also seen for sale from CO sources). I think that this is part of the overall problem: Even if there are problems with various works, they are still presented to the Orthodox alongside works that actually are fitting with correct spirituality. It is the "Protestant hymn" problem discussed earlier with reference to Tasbeha, times however many thousands of places that Orthodox are presented with unorthodox materials. Everyone recognizes what should be, but what is offered is often something less. I do not know why that is.