[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11053.msg133563#msg133563 date=1300772497] Come on geomike, I love the Coptic orthodox church very much!!!
But look at the philokalia, art of prayer, etc. This is from the EO.
I'm sure you love them too.
I find Greek churches compelling and wonderful. I met this Greek priest with orthodox11, who was called father chrysostomous. He was an angel.
I just love their church. What's so bad about that??
I love my church also!!!
Don't tell me you you don't find their churches or priests interesting??
I don't think Zoxasi is trying to insult the COC, I think he just shows great admiration and appreciation to the Greek Orthodox Church. Nothing wrong with that. Its not Church vs Church here. We are one Body of Christ. A broken body but a body none the less.
Many of the commentaries are from our Fathers as well, and the issue is that many Copts do not bother seeking out our own Fathers.
How many people here read the Sermons of St Severus for instance? They are all available in French. There are many ancient commentaries on the Scriptures from our own Fathers, they remain generally unread.
That is not to say that there is not value in reading EO materials, with some discretion. But it is better to seek out our own spiritual Tradition. The fact that it requires more effort is not a suitable excuse for not making the effort.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133576#msg133576 date=1300785633] Sorry, that's not true.
Many of the commentaries are from our Fathers as well, and the issue is that many Copts do not bother seeking out our own Fathers.
How many people here read the Sermons of St Severus for instance? They are all available in French. There are many ancient commentaries on the Scriptures from our own Fathers, they remain generally unread.
That is not to say that there is not value in reading EO materials, with some discretion. But it is better to seek out our own spiritual Tradition. The fact that it requires more effort is not a suitable excuse for not making the effort.
Father Peter
Really? Are you talking about the Orthodox Study Bible? (The one that has the New Testament only).
They all had greek names in the homilies.
Then there's the Philokalia - that's edited by the EO.
What's the equivalent we have in our Church for this? The synaxariam? But, still ... although we have a LOT in our Church, there's is readily available in bookstores - don't you find? I do anyway.
The commentaries of St John Chrysostom are not EO, the commentaries of St Cyril of Alexandria are not EO.
The writings of all the Desert Fathers are not EO. The Conferences and Institutes are not EO.
There are too many spiritual treasures to recount and they are all available to any Copt who chooses to seek them out. I have even republished many of them myself.
There are these Coptic texts in English..
. The Encomium of Theodore, Archbishop of Antioch, on Theodore the Anatolian. II. The Discourse on Mary Theotokos by Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem. III. The Discourse by Demetrius, Archbishop of Antioch, on the birth of God the Word and on the Virgin Mary. IV. The Discourse of Apa Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus, on the Holy Virgin, Mary Theotokos. V. The Discourse of Saint Cyril, Archbishop of Rakote, on the Virgin Mary. VI. The Teaching of Apa Psote, the great Bishop of Psoi. VII. The Discourse on the Compassion of God and on the freedom of speech by the Archangel Michael, by Severus, Archbishop of Antioch. VIII. The Discourse of Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem, on the discovery of the Cross and on the baptism of Isaac the Samaritan. IX. The Martyrdom of Saint Mercurius the General. X. The Martyrdom and Miracles of Mercurius the General. XI. The Encomium of Acacius, Bishop of Caesarea, on Mercurius the Martyr. XII. A Discourse on the Archangel Gabriel by Celestinus, Archbishop of Rome. XIII. The Encomium of Theodosius, Archbishop of Alexandria, on Saint Michael the Archangel. XIV. Histories of the Monks in the Egyptian Desert by Paphnutius. XV. The Prayer of Saint Athanasius when dying. XVI. The Discourse on Saint Michael the Archangel by Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria. XVII. Encomium on the Archangel Raphael by Saint John Chrysostom (incomplete). XVIII. The Apocalypse of Paul (incomplete). Appendix. The Martyrdoms of Absadi, Alanikos, and Mercurius, and Oriental MSS., Nos. 6806 a, 6780, and 6800.
There are many spiritual discourses by St Philoxenus, there are all of the writings and homilies and hymns of St Severus. There are the spiritual letters of St Barsanuphius.
There is the History of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
There is the martyrdom and miracles of Saint George of Cappadocia.
There is the paradise of the holy Fathers.
There is Saint Michael the archangel : three enconiums by Theodosius, archbishop of Alexandria; Severus, patriarch of Antioch; and Eustathius, bishop of Trake
There is the contendings of the Apostles : being the histories of the lives and martyrdoms and deaths of the twelve apostles and evangelists
There are Coptic homilies in the dialect of Upper Egypt translated into English.
There are the Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian
There are the Mystic Treatises of Isaac of Nineveh.
There are Legends of the Eastern saints
Of course there are also all of the writings by St Shenouda, by St Athanasius, by St Timothy Aelurus, a History of St Pachomious, and we should not forget the Plerophories.
This is still hardly touching the surface of our own spiritual tradition which is all available to any Copt who wishes to explore it and learn from it. A knowledge of French provides an even greater selection of translations, and I have not mentioned any Armenian spiritual writings.
There is no excuse for relying only on Eastern Orthodox and Catholic works.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133578#msg133578 date=1300791814] The commentaries of St John Chrysostom are not EO, the commentaries of St Cyril of Alexandria are not EO.
The writings of all the Desert Fathers are not EO. The Conferences and Institutes are not EO.
There are too many spiritual treasures to recount and they are all available to any Copt who chooses to seek them out. I have even republished many of them myself.
There are these Coptic texts in English..
. The Encomium of Theodore, Archbishop of Antioch, on Theodore the Anatolian. II. The Discourse on Mary Theotokos by Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem. III. The Discourse by Demetrius, Archbishop of Antioch, on the birth of God the Word and on the Virgin Mary. IV. The Discourse of Apa Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus, on the Holy Virgin, Mary Theotokos. V. The Discourse of Saint Cyril, Archbishop of Rakote, on the Virgin Mary. VI. The Teaching of Apa Psote, the great Bishop of Psoi. VII. The Discourse on the Compassion of God and on the freedom of speech by the Archangel Michael, by Severus, Archbishop of Antioch. VIII. The Discourse of Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem, on the discovery of the Cross and on the baptism of Isaac the Samaritan. IX. The Martyrdom of Saint Mercurius the General. X. The Martyrdom and Miracles of Mercurius the General. XI. The Encomium of Acacius, Bishop of Caesarea, on Mercurius the Martyr. XII. A Discourse on the Archangel Gabriel by Celestinus, Archbishop of Rome. XIII. The Encomium of Theodosius, Archbishop of Alexandria, on Saint Michael the Archangel. XIV. Histories of the Monks in the Egyptian Desert by Paphnutius. XV. The Prayer of Saint Athanasius when dying. XVI. The Discourse on Saint Michael the Archangel by Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria. XVII. Encomium on the Archangel Raphael by Saint John Chrysostom (incomplete). XVIII. The Apocalypse of Paul (incomplete). Appendix. The Martyrdoms of Absadi, Alanikos, and Mercurius, and Oriental MSS., Nos. 6806 a, 6780, and 6800.
There are many spiritual discourses by St Philoxenus, there are all of the writings and homilies and hymns of St Severus. There are the spiritual letters of St Barsanuphius.
There is the History of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
There is the martyrdom and miracles of Saint George of Cappadocia.
There is the paradise of the holy Fathers.
There is Saint Michael the archangel : three enconiums by Theodosius, archbishop of Alexandria; Severus, patriarch of Antioch; and Eustathius, bishop of Trake
There is the contendings of the Apostles : being the histories of the lives and martyrdoms and deaths of the twelve apostles and evangelists
There are Coptic homilies in the dialect of Upper Egypt translated into English.
There are the Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian
There are the Mystic Treatises of Isaac of Nineveh.
There are Legends of the Eastern saints
Of course there are also all of the writings by St Shenouda, by St Athanasius, by St Timothy Aelurus, a History of St Pachomious, and we should not forget the Plerophories.
This is still hardly touching the surface of our own spiritual tradition which is all available to any Copt who wishes to explore it and learn from it. A knowledge of French provides an even greater selection of translations, and I have not mentioned any Armenian spiritual writings.
There is no excuse for relying only on Eastern Orthodox and Catholic works.
Nice!! I had no idea of all that.
However, I got these cassettes from the Greeks on a few of their saints that I listen to. That's because its in English.
At least they've got that going for them, not to mention really tasty greek food.
These are almost all in English. How do the Greeks have an advantage? You are Coptic. So surely it is important to spend time and effort in studying our own Tradition? Especially when it has been translated for you?
You said that nothing much was available, but there is a lifetime of reading material available for us.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133583#msg133583 date=1300794925] Sorry, I am not sure what you mean?
These are almost all in English. How do the Greeks have an advantage? You are Coptic. So surely it is important to spend time and effort in studying our own Tradition? Especially when it has been translated for you?
You said that nothing much was available, but there is a lifetime of reading material available for us.
Well, OK.. I was advised to listen to these cassettes by a good friend. They are very interesting.
BTW: you didn't read the Philokalia or the Art of Prayer? These are from the EO if I'm not mistaken??
I attend a (technically non-denominational but essentially evangelical) Christian group at my university - they have a weekly Bible study which I attend, in addition to the Coptic society's Bible study (and occasionally drop in to the Catholic society's talks as well). I do it only for the chance to engage with Western Christians - its an effective way for me to learn about their approach first hand and introduce them to Eastern approaches which they are probably not aware of. My mum did the same thing when she was at Uni. At least one priest is aware of this and has no problem.
I agree that the Church shouldn't be ENCOURAGING every single person to go out and join a Protestant prayer group - but how are we supposed to maintain that so much is wrong with the Protestant Church if we don't actually engage with them?
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=11053.msg133589#msg133589 date=1300799208] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11053.msg133572#msg133572 date=1300784088] I admire how they excommunicate you just for going to protestant prayer groups. We should do that in our Church also.
I attend a (technically non-denominational but essentially evangelical) Christian group at my university - they have a weekly Bible study which I attend, in addition to the Coptic society's Bible study (and occasionally drop in to the Catholic society's talks as well). I do it only for the chance to engage with Western Christians - its an effective way for me to learn about their approach first hand and introduce them to Eastern approaches which they are probably not aware of. My mum did the same thing when she was at Uni. At least one priest is aware of this and has no problem.
I agree that the Church shouldn't be ENCOURAGING every single person to go out and join a Protestant prayer group - but how are we supposed to maintain that so much is wrong with the Protestant Church if we don't actually engage with them?
Pray for me
Excellent post!
I also congratulate you (personally) on what you are doing at Uni. I find it very constructive and wise. However, before embarking on this, I would highly recommend that you first become well grounded and solid in your own faith first. Then, once you have this solid foundation, you can feel free to participate with catholics and EO's etc.
Well, have you read Comparative Theology?
Look dude, my problem, your problem is NOT with the RC nor the EO. I don't have a problem with them. I have a problem with protestants. The book on comparative will really help shed light to our differences and bring discussion with them on our differences to a fruitful conclusion.
Please don't take my post to you as a criticism, on the contrary, Im very impressed with your entire personality - I'm speaking generally - whether you have a strong basis in your faith/dogmas or not, I do not know (i get the impression that you do).
You have raised a good point, and my answer to you is this: try to get the book: Comparative Theology IN THEIR HANDS.
Actually, this is why I'm supporting Fr. Peter's websites - I want a resource center where we can just give these people a LINK to a site that will answer all their questions and explain WHERE they are or have been misled.
Fr. Peter?? You see now when I said that you are doing us all a favour?
We don't differ in our approaches. The protestant approach is error, it is not Christian. I was a protestant I know first hand as do many other of us who were protestants and speak from a first hand knowledge.
I do not think ANY coptic youth should attend ANY protestant meetings at all. It is very dangerous to a person's salvation.
Well, protestants are going to tell you that salvation through baptism is not important, its only through faith. They will attack us on pedobaptism - how can we baptise children when they do not even have faith? They will attack us on confession - and iconography.
Comparative Theology answers this AND many more.
That's why we differ in salvation. Our process of salvation is SO different from theirs, that I'm astonished why ANY coptic christian would even bother hanging out with these people.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133594#msg133594 date=1300801243] We don't differ in our approaches. The protestant approach is error, it is not Christian. I was a protestant I know first hand as do many other of us who were protestants and speak from a first hand knowledge.
I do not think ANY coptic youth should attend ANY protestant meetings at all. It is very dangerous to a person's salvation.
I was saying the same thing - but you posted it JUST before me.
But I thought what Epchoise was saying was he wants to respond to protestants and the best way is through the Comparative Theology book or a Coptic Website that answers directly their questions (i.e. HOPEFULLY YOURS!).
However, I do find it good he is at least attending EO / Coptic Orthodox meetings at Uni. That's fantastic.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=11053.msg133598#msg133598 date=1300802318] I'd like to reply properly but its late where I am. Suffice it to say that I feel we could do a lot worse than hang out with Protestants. You clearly disagree, but I'd like to know why? I will read up on it in Comparative Theology, but if you could give me a brief summary I'd be very interested.
PFM
I think its OK to have them as friends, but to attend their prayer meetings and services - I would disagree with this ENTIRELY.
I personally like to hear you attend EO prayer meetings and even Catholic (at Uni), but if you have protestant friends where the topic of differences between your faiths comes into question, I do think you should answer them.
The book Comparative theology will tell you what their differences are with us.. You don't need to attend their prayer meetings to actually find out.
Maybe Fr. Peter disagrees with me, and i think he does, because I would not mind my children attending EO or Catholic prayer meetings at University. I would mind them attending Protestant however.
Why would you want to spend a lot of time with people who deny your faith?
I don't mean not have any protestants as friends, I don't mean not have any protestants as colleagues at school and university and work. But protestants believe error, and teach error, and deny our Orthodox Faith.
It is already forbidden by the canons for any Orthodox to attend protestant services apart from with special permission, and in special cases. I am dismayed that it is actually such a common practice.
In almost every aspect of faith the protestant versions are in error. According to our Orthodox Faith it is not possible to properly be a Christian while being a protestant. I do not mean that it is not possible to have faith in Christ, and to wish to serve Him, but there is more to being a Christian than having faith on our own terms. And this is the essence of protestantism - Christianity on MY terms.
Orthodoxy requires us to be obedient to the Faith once given. It is not Orthodox to disobey the teachings of the Church and routinely attend protestant gatherings which almost without fail tend to corrupt the faith of those young people who attend. It is better to be obedient and seek understanding, than to be disobedient and insist on our own understanding. I had to learn this when I was becoming Orthodox.
It is disturbing to find numbers of Orthodox youth - and I am not referring to any particular persons and I do not know many of you in reality in any case - who base their behaviour on what seems right and best to themselves. THIS IS NOT ORTHODOXY.
If you want some canonical reasons as to why we should not attend protestant meetings as a matter of course..
i. The members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received.
ii. It is unlawful to receive the "blessings" of heretics, for they are rather "follies" than "blessings".
iii. No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.
These are ALL canons accepted by the Coptic Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Churches.
1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
I agree entirely with what you've said Fr. Peter, and even I have more reasons for NOT attending Protestant prayer meetings (that you have not mentioned).
However, would it be OK, at University, for Copts to attend EO meetings or Catholic at least. Not services, not liturgical services, but perhaps lectures or events?
I find the Eastern Orthodox quite close to us, and in some parts of the world, we are unfortunate not to have large Coptic Orthodox communities where we would or could have the luxury of having our own "Coptic Orthodox Society" at university.
Personally I think it is permissible with discretion to attend an EO event - though it depends on the composition. If it is full of people who insist that Copts are heretics then it is perhaps not wise to attend. I think that it is also permissible with discretion to attend some Catholic events. There are many Catholic lecturers who are very interesting. Fr Richard Price is one such in London.
What we must avoid are the twin errors of believing that we are better than everybody else (we are not), or that it doesn't matter what we believe and that everyone is entitled to their own choices (it does matter).
It would be better to form an Oriental Orthodox group. Copts should not generally be doing things on their own. Outside of Egypt we are ALL part of the wider Oriental Orthodox community in which we find ourselves. If this is not possible then it is best to have a strong relationship with the local Orthodox community and be a participating member of that community. In that context then it is possible to imagine having contacts in other groups. But a solid and secure membership of our own Orthodox communion is essential to prevent the likely drift towards a false understanding of Christian Faith.
In London, for instance, there are Orthodox from all of our Churches. Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, India, Syrian. Just because there is not a Coptic group at any particular London university does not seem to me to be a good reason to join another group. I would rather someone attended the Bible study at the Armenian Church in London if they couldn't get to a Coptic one, rather than attend a protestant one. Indeed I do not believe that Orthodox should ever attend a protestant bible study without the permission of their bishop let alone their priest.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133607#msg133607 date=1300805669] Personally I think it is permissible with discretion to attend an EO event - though it depends on the composition. If it is full of people who insist that Copts are heretics then it is perhaps not wise to attend. I think that it is also permissible with discretion to attend some Catholic events. There are many Catholic lecturers who are very interesting. Fr Richard Price is one such in London.
What we must avoid are the twin errors of believing that we are better than everybody else (we are not), or that it doesn't matter what we believe and that everyone is entitled to their own choices (it does matter).
It would be better to form an Oriental Orthodox group. Copts should not generally be doing things on their own. Outside of Egypt we are ALL part of the wider Oriental Orthodox community in which we find ourselves. If this is not possible then it is best to have a strong relationship with the local Orthodox community and be a participating member of that community. In that context then it is possible to imagine having contacts in other groups. But a solid and secure membership of our own Orthodox communion is essential to prevent the likely drift towards a false understanding of Christian Faith.
In London, for instance, there are Orthodox from all of our Churches. Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, India, Syrian. Just because there is not a Coptic group at any particular London university does not seem to me to be a good reason to join another group. I would rather someone attended the Bible study at the Armenian Church in London if they couldn't get to a Coptic one, rather than attend a protestant one. Indeed I do not believe that Orthodox should ever attend a protestant bible study without the permission of their bishop let alone their priest.
Father Peter
I totally agree.
Why aren't our priests as straightforward about this as you??
I have to admit, our priest in Belgium is great. He's very candid about this stuff. I don't mean to scare others or anything, but this is no small issue.
With all due respect to protestants, the only thing that stopped me from attending ANYTHING they did was i didn't find it spiritual even.. lol.. i got bored listening to it.
epchois_nai_nan, the issue is NOT about whether or not Orthodox should think about their faith, it is about whether or not Orthodox should participate in protestant meetings, studies and worship where error is taught. If a child refuses to respond to cautions then it is necessary to resort to discipline for the safety of that child. If I saw one of my spiritual children falling under the spell of protestantism I would act.
With respect to you, you are young and have very little experience of protestantism. I would imagine, though I may be wrong, that your father also has little experience of protestantism. I have been a protestant, an active and educated one, for 30 years. When I stand against the participation of Orthodox youth in protestant activities it is based entirely on experience.
Protestantism does not have the eucharist, the priesthood, the saints, baptism, chrismation, the spiritual tradition, fasting, the Virgin Mary, a proper interpretation of the Scripture, a proper understanding of the Church, a proper understanding of salvation, the councils, the Fathers etc etc etc. What I object to is the idea that despite all of these deficiencies in what is taught, as long as protestant folk are pleasant (as many are), and devoted to their faith (as many are) then it does not matter what they believe. Or worse, that it is fine to have different styles of worship and different theologies as long as well all love God.
If Orthodox youth believe that they can go ahead and do what they want then it is necessary to use the canons of the Church which forbid such activities. On the other hand, if Orthodox youth want to think about the almost complete difference in what is taught in protestantism and Orthodoxy then they will not want to make a habit of attending protestant meetings.
I cannot pretend that the issue is not very serious, nor can I pretend that I (together with other ex-protestants here) don't know what protestantism is all about. I do and we do. It is not Orthodox. To turn from Orthodoxy (and let's be clear, we are not talking about serious study of our faith, we are generally talking about Orthodox people making a personal choice to enjoy electric bands in worship, emotionalism, greater freedom of involvement with the opposite sex, personal interpretation of Scripture etc etc) is a most dangerous thing indeed and there are many Orthodox who have fallen away entirely from life in the Church because they began attending protestant services and enjoyed what went on.
THIS is why the canons exist. To protect the faithful from losing their salvation.
How did she go into the church and do this? I am talking about the first page video. How was she able to bring people with guitars and start to do her songs? My bad tells me that this video is fake, but it's really hard to fake a video unless you photoshop every single frame which is a waste of time since it can sometimes be over ten thousand.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133668#msg133668 date=1300835357] No she does this all over the place and too few clergy just say No!
But how does HH let her into the Cathedral???!!!! It looks exactly like the cathedral in Cairo and I am sure it is...the columns, the iconastais, the gate.
Comments
But look at the philokalia, art of prayer, etc. This is from the EO.
I'm sure you love them too.
I find Greek churches compelling and wonderful. I met this Greek priest with orthodox11, who was called father chrysostomous. He was an angel.
I just love their church. What's so bad about that??
I love my church also!!!
Don't tell me you you don't find their churches or priests interesting??
Come on geomike, I love the Coptic orthodox church very much!!!
But look at the philokalia, art of prayer, etc. This is from the EO.
I'm sure you love them too.
I find Greek churches compelling and wonderful. I met this Greek priest with orthodox11, who was called father chrysostomous. He was an angel.
I just love their church. What's so bad about that??
I love my church also!!!
Don't tell me you you don't find their churches or priests interesting??
I don't think Zoxasi is trying to insult the COC, I think he just shows great admiration and appreciation to the Greek Orthodox Church. Nothing wrong with that. Its not Church vs Church here. We are one Body of Christ. A broken body but a body none the less.
They really like us by the way.
I admire how they excommunicate you just for going to protestant prayer groups. We should do that in our Church also.
BIG SHAME!
Its impossible.
Look at the Orthodox Bible (for example). In it, you will see the commentaries of the Church concerning each chapter or event in the NT.
Its all written by the EO's.
Many of the commentaries are from our Fathers as well, and the issue is that many Copts do not bother seeking out our own Fathers.
How many people here read the Sermons of St Severus for instance? They are all available in French. There are many ancient commentaries on the Scriptures from our own Fathers, they remain generally unread.
That is not to say that there is not value in reading EO materials, with some discretion. But it is better to seek out our own spiritual Tradition. The fact that it requires more effort is not a suitable excuse for not making the effort.
Father Peter
Sorry, that's not true.
Many of the commentaries are from our Fathers as well, and the issue is that many Copts do not bother seeking out our own Fathers.
How many people here read the Sermons of St Severus for instance? They are all available in French. There are many ancient commentaries on the Scriptures from our own Fathers, they remain generally unread.
That is not to say that there is not value in reading EO materials, with some discretion. But it is better to seek out our own spiritual Tradition. The fact that it requires more effort is not a suitable excuse for not making the effort.
Father Peter
Really? Are you talking about the Orthodox Study Bible? (The one that has the New Testament only).
They all had greek names in the homilies.
Then there's the Philokalia - that's edited by the EO.
What's the equivalent we have in our Church for this? The synaxariam? But, still ... although we have a LOT in our Church, there's is readily available in bookstores - don't you find? I do anyway.
The writings of all the Desert Fathers are not EO. The Conferences and Institutes are not EO.
There are too many spiritual treasures to recount and they are all available to any Copt who chooses to seek them out. I have even republished many of them myself.
There are these Coptic texts in English..
. The Encomium of Theodore, Archbishop of Antioch, on Theodore the Anatolian.
II. The Discourse on Mary Theotokos by Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem.
III. The Discourse by Demetrius, Archbishop of Antioch, on the birth of God the Word and on the Virgin Mary.
IV. The Discourse of Apa Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus, on the Holy Virgin, Mary Theotokos.
V. The Discourse of Saint Cyril, Archbishop of Rakote, on the Virgin Mary.
VI. The Teaching of Apa Psote, the great Bishop of Psoi.
VII. The Discourse on the Compassion of God and on the freedom of speech by the Archangel Michael, by Severus, Archbishop of Antioch.
VIII. The Discourse of Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem, on the discovery of the Cross and on the baptism of Isaac the Samaritan.
IX. The Martyrdom of Saint Mercurius the General.
X. The Martyrdom and Miracles of Mercurius the General.
XI. The Encomium of Acacius, Bishop of Caesarea, on Mercurius the Martyr.
XII. A Discourse on the Archangel Gabriel by Celestinus, Archbishop of Rome.
XIII. The Encomium of Theodosius, Archbishop of Alexandria, on Saint Michael the Archangel.
XIV. Histories of the Monks in the Egyptian Desert by Paphnutius.
XV. The Prayer of Saint Athanasius when dying.
XVI. The Discourse on Saint Michael the Archangel by Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria. XVII. Encomium on the Archangel Raphael by Saint John Chrysostom (incomplete).
XVIII. The Apocalypse of Paul (incomplete). Appendix. The Martyrdoms of Absadi, Alanikos, and Mercurius, and Oriental MSS., Nos. 6806 a, 6780, and 6800.
There are many spiritual discourses by St Philoxenus, there are all of the writings and homilies and hymns of St Severus. There are the spiritual letters of St Barsanuphius.
There is the History of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
There is the martyrdom and miracles of Saint George of Cappadocia.
There is the paradise of the holy Fathers.
There is Saint Michael the archangel : three enconiums by Theodosius, archbishop of Alexandria; Severus, patriarch of Antioch; and Eustathius, bishop of Trake
There is the contendings of the Apostles : being the histories of the lives and martyrdoms and deaths of the twelve apostles and evangelists
There are Coptic homilies in the dialect of Upper Egypt translated into English.
There are the Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian
There are the Mystic Treatises of Isaac of Nineveh.
There are Legends of the Eastern saints
Of course there are also all of the writings by St Shenouda, by St Athanasius, by St Timothy Aelurus, a History of St Pachomious, and we should not forget the Plerophories.
This is still hardly touching the surface of our own spiritual tradition which is all available to any Copt who wishes to explore it and learn from it. A knowledge of French provides an even greater selection of translations, and I have not mentioned any Armenian spiritual writings.
There is no excuse for relying only on Eastern Orthodox and Catholic works.
The commentaries of St John Chrysostom are not EO, the commentaries of St Cyril of Alexandria are not EO.
The writings of all the Desert Fathers are not EO. The Conferences and Institutes are not EO.
There are too many spiritual treasures to recount and they are all available to any Copt who chooses to seek them out. I have even republished many of them myself.
There are these Coptic texts in English..
. The Encomium of Theodore, Archbishop of Antioch, on Theodore the Anatolian.
II. The Discourse on Mary Theotokos by Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem.
III. The Discourse by Demetrius, Archbishop of Antioch, on the birth of God the Word and on the Virgin Mary.
IV. The Discourse of Apa Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus, on the Holy Virgin, Mary Theotokos.
V. The Discourse of Saint Cyril, Archbishop of Rakote, on the Virgin Mary.
VI. The Teaching of Apa Psote, the great Bishop of Psoi.
VII. The Discourse on the Compassion of God and on the freedom of speech by the Archangel Michael, by Severus, Archbishop of Antioch.
VIII. The Discourse of Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem, on the discovery of the Cross and on the baptism of Isaac the Samaritan.
IX. The Martyrdom of Saint Mercurius the General.
X. The Martyrdom and Miracles of Mercurius the General.
XI. The Encomium of Acacius, Bishop of Caesarea, on Mercurius the Martyr.
XII. A Discourse on the Archangel Gabriel by Celestinus, Archbishop of Rome.
XIII. The Encomium of Theodosius, Archbishop of Alexandria, on Saint Michael the Archangel.
XIV. Histories of the Monks in the Egyptian Desert by Paphnutius.
XV. The Prayer of Saint Athanasius when dying.
XVI. The Discourse on Saint Michael the Archangel by Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria. XVII. Encomium on the Archangel Raphael by Saint John Chrysostom (incomplete).
XVIII. The Apocalypse of Paul (incomplete). Appendix. The Martyrdoms of Absadi, Alanikos, and Mercurius, and Oriental MSS., Nos. 6806 a, 6780, and 6800.
There are many spiritual discourses by St Philoxenus, there are all of the writings and homilies and hymns of St Severus. There are the spiritual letters of St Barsanuphius.
There is the History of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
There is the martyrdom and miracles of Saint George of Cappadocia.
There is the paradise of the holy Fathers.
There is Saint Michael the archangel : three enconiums by Theodosius, archbishop of Alexandria; Severus, patriarch of Antioch; and Eustathius, bishop of Trake
There is the contendings of the Apostles : being the histories of the lives and martyrdoms and deaths of the twelve apostles and evangelists
There are Coptic homilies in the dialect of Upper Egypt translated into English.
There are the Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian
There are the Mystic Treatises of Isaac of Nineveh.
There are Legends of the Eastern saints
Of course there are also all of the writings by St Shenouda, by St Athanasius, by St Timothy Aelurus, a History of St Pachomious, and we should not forget the Plerophories.
This is still hardly touching the surface of our own spiritual tradition which is all available to any Copt who wishes to explore it and learn from it. A knowledge of French provides an even greater selection of translations, and I have not mentioned any Armenian spiritual writings.
There is no excuse for relying only on Eastern Orthodox and Catholic works.
Nice!! I had no idea of all that.
However, I got these cassettes from the Greeks on a few of their saints that I listen to. That's because its in English.
At least they've got that going for them, not to mention really tasty greek food.
These are almost all in English. How do the Greeks have an advantage? You are Coptic. So surely it is important to spend time and effort in studying our own Tradition? Especially when it has been translated for you?
You said that nothing much was available, but there is a lifetime of reading material available for us.
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean?
These are almost all in English. How do the Greeks have an advantage? You are Coptic. So surely it is important to spend time and effort in studying our own Tradition? Especially when it has been translated for you?
You said that nothing much was available, but there is a lifetime of reading material available for us.
Well, OK.. I was advised to listen to these cassettes by a good friend. They are very interesting.
BTW: you didn't read the Philokalia or the Art of Prayer? These are from the EO if I'm not mistaken??
I agree that the Church shouldn't be ENCOURAGING every single person to go out and join a Protestant prayer group - but how are we supposed to maintain that so much is wrong with the Protestant Church if we don't actually engage with them?
Pray for me
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11053.msg133572#msg133572 date=1300784088]
I admire how they excommunicate you just for going to protestant prayer groups. We should do that in our Church also.
I attend a (technically non-denominational but essentially evangelical) Christian group at my university - they have a weekly Bible study which I attend, in addition to the Coptic society's Bible study (and occasionally drop in to the Catholic society's talks as well). I do it only for the chance to engage with Western Christians - its an effective way for me to learn about their approach first hand and introduce them to Eastern approaches which they are probably not aware of. My mum did the same thing when she was at Uni. At least one priest is aware of this and has no problem.
I agree that the Church shouldn't be ENCOURAGING every single person to go out and join a Protestant prayer group - but how are we supposed to maintain that so much is wrong with the Protestant Church if we don't actually engage with them?
Pray for me
Excellent post!
I also congratulate you (personally) on what you are doing at Uni. I find it very constructive and wise. However, before embarking on this, I would highly recommend that you first become well grounded and solid in your own faith first. Then, once you have this solid foundation, you can feel free to participate with catholics and EO's etc.
Well, have you read Comparative Theology?
Look dude, my problem, your problem is NOT with the RC nor the EO. I don't have a problem with them. I have a problem with protestants. The book on comparative will really help shed light to our differences and bring discussion with them on our differences to a fruitful conclusion.
Please don't take my post to you as a criticism, on the contrary, Im very impressed with your entire personality - I'm speaking generally - whether you have a strong basis in your faith/dogmas or not, I do not know (i get the impression that you do).
You have raised a good point, and my answer to you is this: try to get the book: Comparative Theology IN THEIR HANDS.
Any other suggestions?
Fr. Peter?? You see now when I said that you are doing us all a favour?
I do not think ANY coptic youth should attend ANY protestant meetings at all. It is very dangerous to a person's salvation.
They will attack us on confession - and iconography.
Comparative Theology answers this AND many more.
That's why we differ in salvation. Our process of salvation is SO different from theirs, that I'm astonished why ANY coptic christian would even bother hanging out with these people.
We are literally different religions.
We don't differ in our approaches. The protestant approach is error, it is not Christian. I was a protestant I know first hand as do many other of us who were protestants and speak from a first hand knowledge.
I do not think ANY coptic youth should attend ANY protestant meetings at all. It is very dangerous to a person's salvation.
I was saying the same thing - but you posted it JUST before me.
But I thought what Epchoise was saying was he wants to respond to protestants and the best way is through the Comparative Theology book or a Coptic Website that answers directly their questions (i.e. HOPEFULLY YOURS!).
However, I do find it good he is at least attending EO / Coptic Orthodox meetings at Uni. That's fantastic.
I'd like to reply properly but its late where I am. Suffice it to say that I feel we could do a lot worse than hang out with Protestants. You clearly disagree, but I'd like to know why? I will read up on it in Comparative Theology, but if you could give me a brief summary I'd be very interested.
PFM
I think its OK to have them as friends, but to attend their prayer meetings and services - I would disagree with this ENTIRELY.
I personally like to hear you attend EO prayer meetings and even Catholic (at Uni), but if you have protestant friends where the topic of differences between your faiths comes into question, I do think you should answer them.
The book Comparative theology will tell you what their differences are with us.. You don't need to attend their prayer meetings to actually find out.
Maybe Fr. Peter disagrees with me, and i think he does, because I would not mind my children attending EO or Catholic prayer meetings at University. I would mind them attending Protestant however.
I don't mean not have any protestants as friends, I don't mean not have any protestants as colleagues at school and university and work. But protestants believe error, and teach error, and deny our Orthodox Faith.
It is already forbidden by the canons for any Orthodox to attend protestant services apart from with special permission, and in special cases. I am dismayed that it is actually such a common practice.
In almost every aspect of faith the protestant versions are in error. According to our Orthodox Faith it is not possible to properly be a Christian while being a protestant. I do not mean that it is not possible to have faith in Christ, and to wish to serve Him, but there is more to being a Christian than having faith on our own terms. And this is the essence of protestantism - Christianity on MY terms.
Orthodoxy requires us to be obedient to the Faith once given. It is not Orthodox to disobey the teachings of the Church and routinely attend protestant gatherings which almost without fail tend to corrupt the faith of those young people who attend. It is better to be obedient and seek understanding, than to be disobedient and insist on our own understanding. I had to learn this when I was becoming Orthodox.
It is disturbing to find numbers of Orthodox youth - and I am not referring to any particular persons and I do not know many of you in reality in any case - who base their behaviour on what seems right and best to themselves. THIS IS NOT ORTHODOXY.
If you want some canonical reasons as to why we should not attend protestant meetings as a matter of course..
i. The members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received.
ii. It is unlawful to receive the "blessings" of heretics, for they are rather "follies" than "blessings".
iii. No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.
These are ALL canons accepted by the Coptic Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Churches.
1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Father Peter
However, would it be OK, at University, for Copts to attend EO meetings or Catholic at least. Not services, not liturgical services, but perhaps lectures or events?
I find the Eastern Orthodox quite close to us, and in some parts of the world, we are unfortunate not to have large Coptic Orthodox communities where we would or could have the luxury of having our own "Coptic Orthodox Society" at university.
Thanks
What we must avoid are the twin errors of believing that we are better than everybody else (we are not), or that it doesn't matter what we believe and that everyone is entitled to their own choices (it does matter).
It would be better to form an Oriental Orthodox group. Copts should not generally be doing things on their own. Outside of Egypt we are ALL part of the wider Oriental Orthodox community in which we find ourselves. If this is not possible then it is best to have a strong relationship with the local Orthodox community and be a participating member of that community. In that context then it is possible to imagine having contacts in other groups. But a solid and secure membership of our own Orthodox communion is essential to prevent the likely drift towards a false understanding of Christian Faith.
In London, for instance, there are Orthodox from all of our Churches. Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, India, Syrian. Just because there is not a Coptic group at any particular London university does not seem to me to be a good reason to join another group. I would rather someone attended the Bible study at the Armenian Church in London if they couldn't get to a Coptic one, rather than attend a protestant one. Indeed I do not believe that Orthodox should ever attend a protestant bible study without the permission of their bishop let alone their priest.
Father Peter
Personally I think it is permissible with discretion to attend an EO event - though it depends on the composition. If it is full of people who insist that Copts are heretics then it is perhaps not wise to attend. I think that it is also permissible with discretion to attend some Catholic events. There are many Catholic lecturers who are very interesting. Fr Richard Price is one such in London.
What we must avoid are the twin errors of believing that we are better than everybody else (we are not), or that it doesn't matter what we believe and that everyone is entitled to their own choices (it does matter).
It would be better to form an Oriental Orthodox group. Copts should not generally be doing things on their own. Outside of Egypt we are ALL part of the wider Oriental Orthodox community in which we find ourselves. If this is not possible then it is best to have a strong relationship with the local Orthodox community and be a participating member of that community. In that context then it is possible to imagine having contacts in other groups. But a solid and secure membership of our own Orthodox communion is essential to prevent the likely drift towards a false understanding of Christian Faith.
In London, for instance, there are Orthodox from all of our Churches. Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, India, Syrian. Just because there is not a Coptic group at any particular London university does not seem to me to be a good reason to join another group. I would rather someone attended the Bible study at the Armenian Church in London if they couldn't get to a Coptic one, rather than attend a protestant one. Indeed I do not believe that Orthodox should ever attend a protestant bible study without the permission of their bishop let alone their priest.
Father Peter
I totally agree.
Why aren't our priests as straightforward about this as you??
I have to admit, our priest in Belgium is great. He's very candid about this stuff. I don't mean to scare others or anything, but this is no small issue.
With all due respect to protestants, the only thing that stopped me from attending ANYTHING they did was i didn't find it spiritual even.. lol.. i got bored listening to it.
With respect to you, you are young and have very little experience of protestantism. I would imagine, though I may be wrong, that your father also has little experience of protestantism. I have been a protestant, an active and educated one, for 30 years. When I stand against the participation of Orthodox youth in protestant activities it is based entirely on experience.
Protestantism does not have the eucharist, the priesthood, the saints, baptism, chrismation, the spiritual tradition, fasting, the Virgin Mary, a proper interpretation of the Scripture, a proper understanding of the Church, a proper understanding of salvation, the councils, the Fathers etc etc etc. What I object to is the idea that despite all of these deficiencies in what is taught, as long as protestant folk are pleasant (as many are), and devoted to their faith (as many are) then it does not matter what they believe. Or worse, that it is fine to have different styles of worship and different theologies as long as well all love God.
If Orthodox youth believe that they can go ahead and do what they want then it is necessary to use the canons of the Church which forbid such activities. On the other hand, if Orthodox youth want to think about the almost complete difference in what is taught in protestantism and Orthodoxy then they will not want to make a habit of attending protestant meetings.
I cannot pretend that the issue is not very serious, nor can I pretend that I (together with other ex-protestants here) don't know what protestantism is all about. I do and we do. It is not Orthodox. To turn from Orthodoxy (and let's be clear, we are not talking about serious study of our faith, we are generally talking about Orthodox people making a personal choice to enjoy electric bands in worship, emotionalism, greater freedom of involvement with the opposite sex, personal interpretation of Scripture etc etc) is a most dangerous thing indeed and there are many Orthodox who have fallen away entirely from life in the Church because they began attending protestant services and enjoyed what went on.
THIS is why the canons exist. To protect the faithful from losing their salvation.
No she does this all over the place and too few clergy just say No!
But how does HH let her into the Cathedral???!!!! It looks exactly like the cathedral in Cairo and I am sure it is...the columns, the iconastais, the gate.