Aspazesthe (Major tune)

Amoussa01

I was wondering if anyone out there had a recording of this hymn in english.

abanoub2000

I doubt it exists and if it does exist shame on the guy that recorded it!

minatasgeel

[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10424.msg126680#msg126680 date=1294544691]
I doubt it exists and if it does exist shame on the guy that recorded it!

i have a GTREAT recording.....i just need to find it.

geomike

SHAME ON YOU!!!!!

minatasgeel

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SIDZA4A9

this link will stay up for maybe....2 weeks. download it fast.

Amoussa01

Thanks a lot mina!!!!  :)

Amoussa01

Do you also happen to have IC PATHR long in english as well?!!?

minatasgeel

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=10424.msg126688#msg126688 date=1294559631]
Do you also happen to have IC PATHR long in english as well?!!?

The same guy just said it yesytetrday in the liturgy of the feast. The video is inm the broadcasts archive: saintmark.blip.tv

abanoub2000

Minagir just a small request... find the guy who recorded them and punch him for me :D


God Bless

ophadece

It's really a shame abanoub2000 and geomike to see our respectable Coptic deacons interested to find hymns in another language than Coptic. That's when you keep shouting at the top of your voice and say "I preserve the heritage of the Coptic church", so instead of teaching the younger ones Coptic, they teach them long COptic tunes in English. Really a shame

minatasgeel

[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10424.msg126693#msg126693 date=1294580187]
Minagir just a small request... find the guy who recorded them and punch him for me :D

don't you live in the tri-state area....you might know him....and i think you'll be scared to punch him :D.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10424.msg126694#msg126694 date=1294581079]
It's really a shame abanoub2000 and geomike to see our respectable Coptic deacons interested to find hymns in another language than Coptic. That's when you keep shouting at the top of your voice and say "I preserve the heritage of the Coptic church", so instead of teaching the younger ones Coptic, they teach them long COptic tunes in English. Really a shame

i don't think it's a big deal. why not every once in a while say things in english and are not supposed to be said in english...... :) ::)

geomike

because eventually, it will be an "english-only" hymn, you know how egyptians do things.

minatasgeel

[quote author=geomike link=topic=10424.msg126698#msg126698 date=1294589792]
because eventually, it will be an "english-only" hymn, you know how egyptians do things.

oh...that's not gonna happen......not because of the "englsih" but simply because of the tune.....it's not easy to do that; that being tarkeep coptic tune on its english

ophadece

Maybe not for you minagir, but you know geomike is right, don't you?

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10424.msg126702#msg126702 date=1294599977]
Maybe not for you minagir, but you know geomike is right, don't you?

nooo i don't...and i doubt it. not much ppl know hymns THAT WELL to be able to play with the tunes within different languages keda....no offense geomike; i don't really know you to judge. the case now is many people just learn hymns, and repeat them in church.....that's it. they don't live and feel what they are saying....that's why they can be confused from hearing the simplest differnt hazza....just one hazza and they go crazy.

abanoub2000

Orthodox: conforming with established or accepted standards, as in religion, behaviour, or attitude.


First it started with little things like "kire leison" to "lord have mercy"

and after years we are now saying hymns like ic pateer in english???

I have seen this change happen gradually in my own church.... even our hitenes are in english/coptic.

I dont like it :(

ophadece

Mina you can ask jydeacon or the deacons who serve in small churches in the diaspora. If the young get the message of being able to say long hymns in English rather than Coptic, why bother learning Coptic and hymns in that language in the first place? It's a serious business how you teach the young giving them everything on a silver platter....
Oujai

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10424.msg126708#msg126708 date=1294609657]
Mina you can ask jydeacon or the deacons who serve in small churches in the diaspora. If the young get the message of being able to say long hymns in English rather than Coptic, why bother learning Coptic and hymns in that language in the first place? It's a serious business how you teach the young giving them everything on a silver platter....
Oujai

than we have to worry about those teachers......not the young kids. we can't blame those who learn but those who teach.

ophadece

And that's what I said in the beginning, and what geomike said I believe

Amoussa01

Forgive me Abanoub, Geomike, and Ophadeece for wanting to understand the prayers. I can see how much of a disgrace that can be....you know....wanting to pray with understanding and giving the congregation the chance to benefit from these beautiful hymns instead of them twiddling with their thumbs every time a deacon decides to break into a long coptic hymn.

I guess that means I'm not orthodox :P

abanoub2000

understand? I'm sorry but the congregation has more than enough resources available to help them understand the hymn... and if a deacon is chanting this long hymn because HE wants to understand it then he probably shouldn't be chanting it in the first place.... just my opinion though

Amoussa01

[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10424.msg126716#msg126716 date=1294615446]
understand? I'm sorry but the congregation has more than enough resources available to help them understand the hymn... and if a deacon is chanting this long hymn because HE wants to understand it then he probably shouldn't be chanting it in the first place.... just my opinion though


You're exactly right! Why would we want to understand things? What is the point? Isn't it completely useless?

abanoub2000

look the congregation has more than enough books with the translation on them, and the projector (most churches) has a translation. So "doing it for the congregation" is not an excuse to say this hymn in anything other than coptic...

ophadece

Dear Amoussa01,
I don't blame you for thinking this way. In fact as you're well aware since the building of tasbeha.org and the like this debate seems to recur with no one ever wanting to compromise on their opinion. You certainly haven't been here the last couple of months because if you were you'd have seen comments by dzheremi a non-Copt, and another person sorry I forgot their name very enthusiastic about learning the Coptic language to be able to understand hymns. You are not the only deacon and I sincerely don't mean that as an insult who doesn't want to flick a finger to preserve the rites of the church which is language and hymns as a minor part of. TRust me I don't exempt myself either but if we give in to the pressure from outside to compromise and forgo, then why do we bother with this website in the first place.
Oujai

Amoussa01

[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10424.msg126721#msg126721 date=1294618040]
look the congregation has more than enough books with the translation on them, and the projector (most churches) has a translation. So "doing it for the congregation" is not an excuse to say this hymn in anything other than coptic...


I don't know what you have been taught, but where I come from, the liturgy is known as the "work of the people." It is where everyone in the church (congregation and deacons) participate in oneness in the prayers and hymns. I don't know where you get off saying that these prayers are not for the congregation...have you even read the hymn? It is instructing the congregation to stand in uprightness and in the fear of God by facing east and to gaze upon the Holy Body and Blood of the Lord on the altar. Perhaps you would know that if you understood what you were chanting. In case this is news to you, the whole liturgy is for the unity of each and every member of the church.

From Ophadeece: "You certainly haven't been here the last couple of months because if you were you'd have seen comments by dzheremi a non-Copt, and another person sorry I forgot their name very enthusiastic about learning the Coptic language to be able to understand hymns."

Excuse me Ophadeece, but just because I am not actively responding in tasbeha.org's forums does not mean that I haven't "been there." I am well aware of the fact that many wish to learn about the Coptic language. However, this is irrelevant because we are not talking about learning Coptic at all. I just find it odd that most of you would choose to neglect those who do not know coptic by praying it anyway. What is the point? If you are a deacon and you are supposed to instruct the congregation and you respond in coptic than what is the point? Are we going to hide behind the whole argument of the projector? I am not advocating the removal of coptic from our services, rather I just wish we were more sensitive to the needs of the congregation as well as having a good understanding of our prayers so that they have meaning. Keep in mind that not all of us know how to speak fluently like yourself. We need to be looking out for the benefit of the people as well as realize the words which these "pro-coptic" deacons are chanting. Lets not forget that deacons are servants!

ophadece

DEar Amoussa01,
I do apologise for making an incorrect statement. I don't like the projector in the first instance. But what I feel you don't really want to say is that Coptic hymns are very easy to understand. The instructions are very easy to understand. For people who are keen they can check the translation once or twice or even more and they will know it by heart. DO you know something even in the American congress and the British parliament they use LAtin expressions, and they understand them... please and that's a personal plea to you and everybody else enthusiastic about this church's heritage. Just think what heritage means. For me it means that even if my forefathers were pagans, they still left me something, then I should preserve it. I guess you already know how much trouble and sometimes even discrimination against (which of course still happens for other reasons as well) to defend the language, and you may already know better than me the pain Dr. Ragheb Moftah went through to preserve those hymns in the face of Arabicisation and doing without Coptic hymns altogether
Oujai

jydeacon

Lol did someone call my name? This discussion has been discussed at length 100 times. Yet it comes up over and over. I do agree there MUST be at least 50-60% English in liturgies(if people will tolerate less than that then great), whether or not there is a projector. Nothing will get to you like your own language. However, with certain responses and hymns, they need to be kept in coptic. If someone is very good at taking a tune and moving it to a different language then fine. I am more worried about losing tunes then anything else. A deacons response however is not the work of the people. Its for the deacon to announce what is going on. The people can read on the monitor. If its something like Psalm 150, then it should be said in English after coptic so there is participation. The congregation needs not participate in a deacon response. I've said this 100 times as well. There must be balance. We need to be realistic, we aren't living in Egypt in 400 AD. We don't speak coptic in our every day lives and many do not speak arabic, however this is another topic...

Amoussa01

I want to make it clear that I am not advocating the removal of the Coptic language. In fact, I prefer certain things to be said in coptic! However, I have a responsibility as a deacon and If I decided to start chanting a hymn like Aspazesthe in Coptic, then I know that it will not mean as much as if I say it in a language that they understand (its just not the same reading the translation). I guarantee most people will daze into space or probably sit down and lose focus than if I were to say words that were meaningful to them. Not only does it mean more to them, but it means more to me because I can pray better when I know what words I am saying (that is just me personally). Perhaps, the focus has shifted away from the "bigger picture" of things. Instead of trying to be a muallem, we deacons can focus on the spiritual meaning behind hymns; and if one were to do that, I am sure it would be much easier for them if they were to pray in a language that they can fully understand.

Another thing we need to realize is the fact that we are more concerned about the faith than anything else. Orthodoxy is not defined by the language you pray in or the tunes you use. It is the faith in Christ as Lord and God. Again, I am not saying our heritage is meaningless, I just want to distinguish the fact that we cannot equate the importance of our language to our faith. Personally, I think that if we do not change the tunes then the rest shouldnt matter too much (just as long as we say the hiten's in coptic hehe). Anyway, thanks a lot guys for turning yet another forum topic into a pointless debate  :P

ophadece

Trust me people will daze into space whether you say it in Coptic, or English, or Arabic, or Mexican for the latter converts, or Russian who do not have a church of their own nearby and have to attend the COC, or people of all those languages except the former.
Dear Amoussa01, I'm not sure if you know Coptic, although my impression was that you have a basic command of the language. If you want to write asbazesta the Greco-Bohairic way, you would write it as aspazeste, not aspazesthe, as when the Greco-Bohairic or rather "Greek" "theeta" follows a Greek sigma it's pronounced as "t"
Oujai

minatasgeel

i just wanted to say: "Good Morning"  :)

geomike

If you can stop being lazy and look 2 cm to the left there is an English column, it will translate the coptic for you so u can understand. Also, the tunes have meanings, each hazza has a meaning. It is so beautiful when it is prayed in coptic (if you are actually praying it and not showing off). Next time you hear it, listen to the first 30 seconds, you will notice that the tune sounds demanding when it says "Greet one another..." but then the tune suddenly gets low pitched and quiet when it begins to say "Lord Have Mercy (3x)", because we are sinners and we cannot yell at God. See, the tunes have so much meaning especially in coptic. One who is really praying it will know this, this will be lost when it is done in English. You guys can do whatever you want, it's not against the law or anything, lol, but just know that a lot of the meaning behind the hymn is lost.