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Order of Rites for Feasts of Nativity, Epiphany, and Resurrection
Hello everyone,
Does anyone knows the order of the rites for the vespers and matins for the Feasts of Nativity, Epiphany, and Resurrection?
Which one comes before the other and what hymns (in order please) are chanted and which readings are read in vespers and matins. Thanks.
Does anyone knows the order of the rites for the vespers and matins for the Feasts of Nativity, Epiphany, and Resurrection?
Which one comes before the other and what hymns (in order please) are chanted and which readings are read in vespers and matins. Thanks.
Comments
Hello everyone,
Does anyone knows the order of the rites for the vespers and matins for the Feasts of Nativity, Epiphany, and Resurrection?
Which one comes before the other and what hymns (in order please) are chanted and which readings are read in vespers and matins. Thanks.
i believe there is "no vespers" for the Resurrection. For Nativity and Epiphany there just might be a vespers....check in a katameros if there is a reading.
Bright Saturday Liturgy in a sense is the same concept of the Paramoni for the Nativity and Theophany.
Vespers is prayed before the midnight praise and matins, in the afternoon, which is after the liturgy of the Paramon.
Resurrection doesnt have Vespers, only midnight praise and Matins before the Liturgy of the Feast.
I take back what I said [in the way that I said it]. The practice is different from the listed rites.
Vespers is generally not done--though. Just like the midnight praises are generally not done prior to the Resurrection Liturgy.
The priests have made it a point of saying that the preparation has been done. The time factor and fatigue usually do not permit these to be done. I'm sure there are some churches that do it, but I have yet to attend one of these services.
There are a lot of churches that begin Matins with no one having read the Matins hour nor the Praises, and that's on regular Liturgies of the week and Sundays.
My abrupt and quick reply should have been tempered and qualified.
The Vespers and Midnight praise of Nativity are actually very nice. In my experience if it prayed, usually it will be a priest and 2 deacons, but it gives you time to focus on the spirituality of the feast before the large numbers of people come to attend.
Very interesting interpretation in pragmatism. I often find that Church traditions, or developing traditions, have a two prong aspect: spiritual and practical.
I can see the logic in the development of events relative to what you wrote.
Actually, I remembered as I was driving that about 15 years ago, I attended the Nativity at a parish, and they did the Vespers service, closed the curtain, and in minutes opened the curtain and started Matins for the Feast Liturgy. It was a bit irregular to see. Eleyson eemas came right after benediction and closing.
hehehe....that just reminded me of a small skit that was done in a retreat like 4 yrs ago(me in high school) with grad people. and it was what they church will be in like 20 yrs or so. so one of the great deacons in my church (i won't mention his name), being as if he was the priest, opening the curtain with Eleison emmas... and gets to the end and just 2 seconds later goes back with it saying Amen alleluia zoxa....
I am sure you wouldn't like this, ilovesaintmark, but it was funny.
You are right, I would not like it. But then again, who am I that my opinion matters in such issues. I take care of my own little soul that is still in diapers looking to grow in spiritual maturity so that one day I make look at the Almighty without fear and be able to present to Him with an accounting for the talents that He gave me. One day.
My source for this information is the Deacon Service book by Muallem Albair Mikhail. I have also used the Rites book by El-Sorian Monastery.
(1) The Feast of Nativity
(A) Vespers: -Festal (joyous) tune
-Verses of the cymbals for Nativity
-Kirie-eleyson ten o-osht, shere ti-ekklisia (or amoini, depending on the day)
-Pi jin misi
-Shere Vithle-em
-Shere ne Maria (then continue as usual)
-Conclude with: Isos Pikhristos ensaf..., Eporo... (je av mask)
-Doxology of Nativity first, then the other doxologies
-Psalm response for Nativity
-Gospel response for Nativity
-Concluding prayer phrase for Nativity (Amen alleluia zoxa patri.. vi-etaf masf...)
(B) Matins: -Festal tune
-Verses of the cymbals (the words for this hymn are taken from the Morning Doxology):
-Kirie-eleyson ten o-osht
-until verse "Hiten no evshi"
-Pi jin misi
-Shere Vithle-em
-Shere ne Maria, shere ne Maria
-[Here you say the patron saint of the Church]
-Isos Pikhristos ensaf
-Eporo, gor evol etc (je av mask)
-After the Litany of the Sick, You say the hymn of the seven tunes, starting with "Pi o oini"
-Doxology of Nativity first, then the other doxologies
-Psalm response for Nativity
-Gospel response for Nativity
-Concluding prayer phrase for Nativity (Amen alleluia zoxa patri.. vi-etaf masf...)
(2) The Feast of Epiphany
(A) Vespers: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
(B) Lakkan (Liturgy of the water)
(C) Matins: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
(3) The Feast of Resurrection
(A) No Vespers
(B) Matins: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak tonk)
(2) The Feast of Epiphany
(A) Vespers: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
(B) Lakkan (Liturgy of the water)
(C) Matins: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
One comment: the tradition now is to do the Laqan AFTER Matins......main reason for that is to actually have the people there. Also, one thing that i heard from a priest before, it is intended to be closer to the time of communion so that people won't drink the water.
[quote author=mechaiel link=topic=10098.msg123479#msg123479 date=1291558734]
(2) The Feast of Epiphany
(A) Vespers: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
(B) Lakkan (Liturgy of the water)
(C) Matins: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
One comment: the tradition now is to do the Laqan AFTER Matins......main reason for that is to actually have the people there. Also, one thing that i heard from a priest before, it is intended to be closer to the time of communion so that people won't drink the water.
I was under the impression that it has always been done that way. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the Lakkan was previously done before before Matins?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=10098.msg123501#msg123501 date=1291577840]
[quote author=mechaiel link=topic=10098.msg123479#msg123479 date=1291558734]
(2) The Feast of Epiphany
(A) Vespers: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
(B) Lakkan (Liturgy of the water)
(C) Matins: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
One comment: the tradition now is to do the Laqan AFTER Matins......main reason for that is to actually have the people there. Also, one thing that i heard from a priest before, it is intended to be closer to the time of communion so that people won't drink the water.
I was under the impression that it has always been done that way. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the Lakkan was previously done before before Matins?
older khidmat shamses and introductions in some laqan books....if you think about it, the laqan is a FULLY separate liturgy.
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=10098.msg123505#msg123505 date=1291578082]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=10098.msg123501#msg123501 date=1291577840]
[quote author=mechaiel link=topic=10098.msg123479#msg123479 date=1291558734]
(2) The Feast of Epiphany
(A) Vespers: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
(B) Lakkan (Liturgy of the water)
(C) Matins: Same order as Nativity except you say the Epiphany hymns and (Je ak-chi-oms)
One comment: the tradition now is to do the Laqan AFTER Matins......main reason for that is to actually have the people there. Also, one thing that i heard from a priest before, it is intended to be closer to the time of communion so that people won't drink the water.
I was under the impression that it has always been done that way. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the Lakkan was previously done before before Matins?
older khidmat shamses and introductions in some laqan books....if you think about it, the laqan is a FULLY separate liturgy.
It's certainly interesting. Thanks for mentioning it, will be interesting to look into it.
Anyhow, it seems to me that the timing of a Lakaan doesn't make a very big difference. Baptisms are performed before liturgies, during, or on seperate occasions as it is a seperate Liturgy in itself too. Practical reasons will be the main motive to adjust the official rites when it comes to timing (ie before or after Matins), which is fine.
IT's interesting to note that the Lakaan of Covenent Thursday is done after matins, but then again, that day has unique rites when it comes to so many things.
welll...as i may remember, isn't there Pascha that must be done before the Laqan.....look at this: http://saintmark.blip.tv/file/3429351/
the liturgy must be after the laqan. i think i said this in a post before: there is a set order of services in our church considering their tunes. The Laqan is annual; the transformation point between matins (sad) to liturgy (half and half: annual and festive). so you can't do annual (laqan), sad (matins), and then festive(liturgy).
And just to confuse things a little bit more cantor Wagdy and recently also cantor Ibrahim recorded vespers for the above feasts in annual tune (as far as I can remember)...
tanyyyyy.
i don't see any recording of that yet. Ibo is not going to rerecord what he did (he didn't record anything for the Laqan.
If it's Wagdy, i can speak to him....i actually haven't for a loooong time.
Anba Mettaus books states that the Laqan of Epiphany is prayed in the festive rite. that makes since because you can't pray matins, in festive tune, than go back into annual and than festive in the liturgy again.
I wasn't even talking about laqqan but I personally view it as an independent service in its own right that HAS TO be annual whatever the rites of the day. PRetty much like el tagneez el 3am and the wedding rites in its correct place after any matins. Answer this question: at the end of el tamgeed for any saint what tune are the latter verses sung? What? Sha'anini? Why? Palm Sunday? FEast of the Cross? NO... separate independent rites
then why do we use the sha'anini tune in a wedding?! it's not Palm Sunday and it's not the feast of the Cross....
That's exactly my point. It's a separate set of rites with its own set of tunes and it doesn't change with the ceremonial, as does not the laqqan service, the general funeral, ... etc
we said that....i said it's a fully separate liturgy before.....but when you have to fit it in the middle of matins and liturgy, you have to change the tune.
if it was done before matins or vespers of the feast, it would still be in the paramoune day, so it would be annual.
same to the general funeral....if it was done right after the liturgy of palm sunday, you can't do it in the sad tune....not fitting after you have just taking communion. it was said to be done in annual becuase it becomes the translation point.
NO YOU DON'T... why do we suppose we are compelled to change the tune of a service once it's sandwiched between two others or directly follows another. Please don't start me again on that but just remember the correct wedding rites come after matins and they are never prayed in annual tune on annual days... or are they?
what i was taught is that order of things that happen in church matters--that includes the tunes they are in.
I disagree because that would mean that glorifications would change to joyful, kiahky, lenten, etc since they aren't the primary rites. Doesn't make sense to me. The only exception that I learnt is funerals falling on a Sunday, the day of the Lord
in case of the glorification that we do now, it is NOT a separate service....for sure.
I do believe it is and whatever day it will fall on you'd still serve in it in the middle of vespers service in its own tune that doesn't change. What do other people think?
I'm with ophadece on this one. All of the glorifications I've heard have been in the same tune, regardless of the season.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10098.msg123679#msg123679 date=1291674297]
I do believe it is and whatever day it will fall on you'd still serve in it in the middle of vespers service in its own tune that doesn't change. What do other people think?
I'm with ophadece on this one. All of the glorifications I've heard have been in the same tune, regardless of the season.
since you guys are truly believing in to the old tradition of the taqdees and glorification than i guess it's now safe for me to elaborate on this....the original glorification rite was similar to vespers with specific hymns which BECOME dependent on the season. i would need a book that i don't have right now to prove what i am saying.