Kiahk hymns

Cyril97

Hello all tasbeha.org members,

I was just wondering,
when does the Kiahk tasbeha begin? Does it start with the fast or only for that month?
I know that there are many things that should be said but what is actually said during this period?
How does the Liturgy and Vespers change during this period?
I have no idea about this period litteraly.
Please fill me in on anything I should know.
God bless you and Pray for me,

Cyril

minatasgeel

[quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10030.msg122588#msg122588 date=1290465818]
Hello all tasbeha.org members,

I was just wondering,
when does the Kiahk tasbeha begin? Does it start with the fast or only for that month?
I know that there are many things that should be said but what is actually said during this period?
How does the Liturgy and Vespers change during this period?
I have no idea about this period litteraly.
Please fill me in on anything I should know.
God bless you and Pray for me,

Cyril Zaytoun

Kiahk hymns start during kiahk and not the beginning of the fast. nothing changes till that time.

servant33

All changes can be found here:
http://www.suscopts.org/deacons/hymns/kiahk_rites.pdf

Cyril97

What changes during this period?
ex. General Canon, Gospel, Praxis Response...

hany58

There are some changes that happen during the mass i.e. Hiten, Epraxis Response, Pachoice, Psalm, Psalm response, Gospel Response, You can say the annual Asbasmos Adam or the Kiahk Asbasmos Adam, the Watos Asbasmos, Psalm 150, Je fes maro ot, Ef emepsha Ghar, The tune of the maddeha, & finally the Ending Canon. I hope I didn't forget anything.

minatasgeel

[quote author=baladoos link=topic=10030.msg122643#msg122643 date=1290559395]
Pachoice

not much ppl say this because i don't think it's in much books....but it is recorded and valid.

Psalm response

there is no specific psalm response but the tune of the Alleluia does change.

annual Asbasmos Adam or the Kiahk Asbasmos Adam, the Watos Asbasmos

see.....i don't like that. annual is is during annual time, Kiahk is during kiahk time. that's it. the only exception is the 3rd week of kiahk where the set aspasmos adam is Onof Emmo, the annual aspasmos adam.

Psalm 150,

we LOVE saying this in the long tune where we don't say the refrain. but can be said fast and with the refrain.

Ending Canon.

not much people say that either and not much people even no about it or have a translation.

ophadece

DEar Mina,
What's the refrain for psalm 150 you are talking about?

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10030.msg122662#msg122662 date=1290585045]
DEar Mina,
What's the refrain for psalm 150 you are talking about?

in coptic: [coptic]Pimici `ebol qen `Viwt@ qajwou `nni`ewn tyrou.[/coptic]
in arabic: المولود من الآب قبل كل الدهور، [أتى وتجسد من العذراء].
(it adds an extra part to clarify)
English: The Begotten of the Father before all ages, [came and was incarnate of the Virgin].
(extra arabic part is in [])

hany58

This refrain has been added by the holy Synod quite recently, I think at 2006-2007. But it wasn't recorded in any of the original old recordings. At our church we always chant the long version of psalm 150 in coptic & without the refrain. I personally think that the refrain ruins the hymn.

Mina,  in Cantor Farag's Deacon Service Book, it says that you can say Onof Emmo during the month of Kiahk. Are you referring to Albair's Deacon' book? Does it mention that on the third week of Kiahk the asbasmos is Onof Emmo?

Also, according to what I know, there are 16 Gospel Responses in total for the month of kiahk (This includes the masses & vespers).

minatasgeel

[quote author=baladoos link=topic=10030.msg122702#msg122702 date=1290625708]
This refrain has been added by the holy Synod quite recently, I think at 2006-2007. But it wasn't recorded in any of the original old recordings. At our church we always chant the long version of psalm 150 in coptic & without the refrain. I personally think that the refrain ruins the hymn.

i remember hearing it somewhere but can't rmember.....i doubt it's it was added that recent thoo (06-07).....it might of been an Alexandrian tradition bass.

Mina,  in Cantor Farag's Deacon Service Book, it says that you can say Onof Emmo during the month of Kiahk. Are you referring to Albair's Deacon' book? Does it mention that on the third week of Kiahk the asbasmos is Onof Emmo?

i have m Farag in front of me......it doesn't say that you can chant onof emmo during the whole month (top of pg 125 in 9th edition--same as 8th in text really)

Also, according to what I know, there are 16 Gospel Responses in total for the month of kiahk (This includes the masses & vespers).

well yeah....but they are not in m Farag's or the Nahdet el-kanayes books....it's in albair's book and he took them from another old book. Abouna Metias records them.....and i have them on text library.

ophadece

Never heard that refrain and not at all sure why the need arose for such a clarification. Honestly not fond of it

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10030.msg122708#msg122708 date=1290633035]
Never heard that refrain and not at all sure why the need arose for such a clarification. Honestly not fond of it
why?

ophadece

First of all: why the need for innovation? The psalm has been like that since the beginning, why did people decide to add to it. I can understand that in other rites there needs to be an addendum because of similarities in the tune, ie feast of the Cross and Palm Sunday, Jonah's fast and great lent, the different feastly psalms 150, but what's the rationale for Kiahk when it has a unique tune in the first place?

jydeacon

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10030.msg122743#msg122743 date=1290669772]
First of all: why the need for innovation? The psalm has been like that since the beginning, why did people decide to add to it. I can understand that in other rites there needs to be an addendum because of similarities in the tune, ie feast of the Cross and Palm Sunday, Jonah's fast and great lent, the different feastly psalms 150, but what's the rationale for Kiahk when it has a unique tune in the first place?


This is not a new innovation...This came up because when you sing psalm 150 for kiahk in a language other than Coptic, the tune doesn't match at all. So after its done in coptic, people switch the tune to that of the doxologies(similar to whats done on feasts) and the refrain was needed then. If time allows after english and arabic are said, they switch back to coptic with the known tune and end it the known kiahk way.

geomike

also, most deacons don't know the special tune for the coptic, so what are they going to do? This is why it is said, but i personally like to stick with the special tune for it, but there is nothing wrong with the other one. It's a prayer, not a song.

hany58

My personal opinion is that we shouldn't chant the Kiahk Psalm 150 in the doxologies tune. Psalm 150 is got its own "Unique" tune. If we all stick to the Doxologies tune, then one day the hymns of the church will perish because we didn't learn them & practice them. For example, the Major Joyful Psalm 150, can we say it in the joyful tune of doxologies? ofcourse not. With all respect to every opinion, I really think that we have started comprimising a lot when it comes to coptic hymns. We try our best to justify not learning the propper & accurate tune because we don't want to learn complicated hymns. I'm not trying to point at anyone, but this issue is really bothering me. & at my church, we have lots of arguments regarding this matter. People just want to make things as simple as possible. I think if we understand the price that our fathers paid to pass these hymns through the years, then we will try more to preserve our heritage & our beautiful hymns. Nowadays hymns can be learned a lot easier than 100 years ago, we have the advanced technologies, we have recorded lessons, we have TV lessons. Cantor Mikhaeel El Batanoony Served the church 70 years teaching hymns. He used to teach every single day from 8 am till 10 pm, even on his last day on earth.  Even though he did all this, there are still some hymns that were buried with him, some hymns that he couldn't even have time to teach. Cantor Tawfik is the one that said that by the way. I think all these men spent their entire life trying to preserve our coptic hymns. But unfortunately we don't take coptic hymns as serious as they were, we are more reluctant to learn & educate ourselves with the valuable treasures of the church. Most of us are sunday school teachers, if we are not an example to our kids, then more than likely they will just do the same thing, & after 20/30 years all hymns will be gone because no one knows them.

I'm really griefing about this subject, please mention me in your prayers, & I do really apologize if I have offended anyone with what I said. I honestly don't mean to blame any one at all

minatasgeel

[quote author=baladoos link=topic=10030.msg122767#msg122767 date=1290711083]
For example, the Major Joyful Psalm 150, can we say it in the joyful tune of doxologies?
ofcourse not.

actually that "Major Joyful Psalm 150" that you are talking about (the short one by Ibrahim Ayad or even the long one my mTawfik and recorded by Abouna Metias) it is like the Festive Sherat. but for the rest of the psalm, it is in fact, that "joyful tune of doxologies."

i think you guys are confusing......the "doxologies tune" that everyone is talking about is not set FOR THE DOXOLOGIES.....it's simply the "Watos tune of ___", where the "___" can be Annual Days, Festive, Lenten, Kiahky, Sha'anini. So things ARE in fact alike in those occasion and they are put in our liturgies to be that way.

hany58

I agree with you Mina, but what I'm saying is that we have no genuine recording of Kiahk Psalm 150 with the tune of the Kiahk Doxologies. All what I'm saying is to stop changing the tunes to make things simpler. If the tune is long, then we should learn it & chant it long. If there is a shorter (Genuine) tune, then sure we can definitely say it. But if there isn't, then we have to say the hymns in the original tune. A lot of nice hymns are not chanted at all nowadays because people think that they are difficult to learn, like enthoten Ze, Niromy, & long Shere Theotoke

minatasgeel

[quote author=baladoos link=topic=10030.msg122776#msg122776 date=1290717482]
I agree with you Mina, but what I'm saying is that we have no genuine recording of Kiahk Psalm 150 with the tune of the Kiahk Doxologies. All what I'm saying is to stop changing the tunes to make things simpler. If the tune is long, then we should learn it & chant it long. If there is a shorter (Genuine) tune, then sure we can definitely say it. But if there isn't, then we have to say the hymns in the original tune. A lot of nice hymns are not chanted at all nowadays because people think that they are difficult to learn, like enthoten Ze, Niromy, & long Shere Theotoke

http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_4.html

Track: Psalm 150 for Communion around min 2:10. M.Sadek with the chorus....this is "genuine"
The only reason you don't see Ibo recording this is because he recorded the kiahk rite probably before we where born....

ophadece

Dear jydeacon
Thanks for the clarification. I strongly agree with baladoos of course and a bit disappointed to hear what geomike said. God bless you all and pray for me a lot

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10030.msg122781#msg122781 date=1290722643]
Dear jydeacon
Thanks for the clarification. I strongly agree with baladoos of course and a bit disappointed to hear what geomike said. God bless you all and pray for me a lot

i don't blame him thoo....the hymn, in fact the whole psalm, is really hard to learn and to remember.

ophadece

You are right Mina. Just maybe reminding myself that deacons/Sunday school teachers have a huge job on their hands and it's no good giving ourselves excuses all the time for not teaching some hymns for that matter

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10030.msg122795#msg122795 date=1290746505]
You are right Mina. Just maybe reminding myself that deacons/Sunday school teachers have a huge job on their hands and it's no good giving ourselves excuses all the time for not teaching some hymns for that matter

well let me just say that this is one of the hymns that if you don't WANT to learn it....you simply won't.
In my church, we ALWAYS say it....short or long liturgies, WE SAY IT in the long tune. and many of the deacons not it that it sounds really nice (so it won't be like just one person singing in the mic). actually i think the only exception was one year on new year's liturgy where we were really tired and really really wanted to say "khataret hamama"

geomike

WHAT DID YOU SAY OPHADECE!!!! Lol, jk, but seriously now why are you dissapointed in my post? I know that you want to keep the coptic and the original rites going, but all i said was that we need to remember that a hymn is a prayer and it doesn't matter how it's said. By this i mean that some "leaders of the deacon choir" don't know it the long way, and they don't have time to just sit down and learn the hymn like we do since we're youth. God bless.

minatasgeel

[quote author=geomike link=topic=10030.msg122842#msg122842 date=1290827910]
WHAT DID YOU SAY OPHADECE!!!! Lol, jk, but seriously now why are you dissapointed in my post? I know that you want to keep the coptic and the original rites going, but all i said was that we need to remember that a hymn is a prayer and it doesn't matter how it's said. By this i mean that some "leaders of the deacon choir" don't know it the long way, and they don't have time to just sit down and learn the hymn like we do since we're youth. God bless.

actually....now that i read what i just said, i don't agree either....only because you generalize your statement. i know what you want to say, but it is not what is understood from your statment...
A HYMN, is what it is because of the way it is said......if "it doesn't matter how it's said" than the hymn in itself "doesn't matter"

geomike

i don't mean it that way. I am saying that some churches have deacons that don't know it. What should they do? Should they just skip Psalm 150? That's what i mean, I know the hymn so of course i would prefer it with the tune, but i was talking for the people who don't know it. I love hymns too and I hope that they will live on, unlike the Kiahk Vespers Praise which is dying. That's what i was trying to say. Hopefully that clears everthing up. Thanks guys.

minatasgeel

[quote author=geomike link=topic=10030.msg122853#msg122853 date=1290880307]
I love hymns too and I hope that they will live on, unlike the Kiahk Vespers Praise which is dying. That's what i was trying to say.

nope....it's not dying...

ophadece

DEar geomike,
Your point is a very valid one but I'm afraid it may give way to complacency. It's no excuse that the older generation don't have the time and they are choir leaders. They do understand that an integral part of deacon's job is to learn and teach hymns. If they don't then they should humbly leave it to the next younger senior who knows it. NOw on a similar note and as St. Paul says not to be big in ourselves as teachers because in many things we all stumble. That brings to my mind the differences we see sometimes between recordings of cantors to some hymns; if anything that should affect the unison of the church, shouldn't it? Therefore it is very important to identify a source as HICS even locally for each church per se to follow (which I'm hoping now we have this abundance of hymns specially speaking of this very website) it should be a general thing to take HICS as "the" source and when it comes to for example pha nedanh for example we sit down together as church choir and agree on a source and follow it. That's my personal opinion.

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10030.msg122883#msg122883 date=1290938329]
DEar geomike,
Your point is a very valid one but I'm afraid it may give way to complacency. It's no excuse that the older generation don't have the time and they are choir leaders. They do understand that an integral part of deacon's job is to learn and teach hymns. If they don't then they should humbly leave it to the next younger senior who knows it. NOw on a similar note and as St. Paul says not to be big in ourselves as teachers because in many things we all stumble. That brings to my mind the differences we see sometimes between recordings of cantors to some hymns; if anything that should affect the unison of the church, shouldn't it? Therefore it is very important to identify a source as HICS even locally for each church per se to follow (which I'm hoping now we have this abundance of hymns specially speaking of this very website) it should be a general thing to take HICS as "the" source and when it comes to for example pha nedanh for example we sit down together as church choir and agree on a source and follow it. That's my personal opinion.

btw, pha nedahn is "[coptic]Va nitenh[/coptic]", Archangel Michael hymn: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1528

geomike

Ophadece ur point is very true, our church is blessed to have knowledgable deacons. Btw minaret vespers kiahk praise is basically almost never done in the southern California diocese, but this year the youth is getting together before vespers to do the beautiful praise. God bless.