We've asked more questions than you and you haven't answered any of them. I'm struggling to find time to come to Tasbeha anymore so although researching in the books of the church fathers would benefit me spiritually, I really cant find much time. I'm waiting for your answers first to our arguments before I go and search.
We've asked more questions than you and you haven't answered any of them. I'm struggling to find time to come to Tasbeha anymore so although researching in the books of the church fathers would benefit me spiritually, I really cant find much time. I'm waiting for your answers first to our arguments before I go and search.
PK
Funny.
Alright. Please post your kind and well-intentioned questions in a clear format as I have done, and I will do my best to answer them...or perhaps you don't have enough time, just like you don't have enough time to read the works of the great theological minds of the church.
Neither of you are making sense. If all sin leads to death, are you trying to tell me that there are varying degrees of death? Nonsense. If you are in hell, you are in hell, no matter what. It's called the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That is what we are referring to when we say 'hell'. There are no gray spots for the wicked; either you make it to Heaven, or you don't, in which case you go to Hades and accordingly, hell. If you go to hell, you are dead. You are in the aforementioned lake.
So if anyone cares to explain what other possible punishments there could be, please go ahead.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95190#msg95190 date=1223419413] Since this somehow turned to a crap-match between me and you for 'points' or 'honor', forget it.
Thanks! This is your way of saying ' I can not substantiate my claims'. I felt you were trying to score a point and I said it.There is nothing wrong with saying what one feels. You have not dished out anything worthwhile that benefited mean the topic.Go back and read your own responses.Your one liners are just that,one- liners! If you dont know for sure, then that is Ok ,it is not a sin.Correct me if my feeling was wrong. Otherwise, let's move on.
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg95193#msg95193 date=1223420039] [quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95190#msg95190 date=1223419413] Since this somehow turned to a crap-match between me and you for 'points' or 'honor', forget it.
Thanks! This is your way of saying ' I can not substantiate my claims'. I felt you were trying to score a point and I said it.There is nothing wrong with saying what one feels. You have no dihsed out anything worthwhile that benefited me.Your one liner responses are just that,one- liners! If you dont know for sure, then that is Ok.Correct me if my feeling was wrong. Otherwise, let's move on.
We've asked more questions than you and you haven't answered any of them. I'm struggling to find time to come to Tasbeha anymore so although researching in the books of the church fathers would benefit me spiritually, I really cant find much time. I'm waiting for your answers first to our arguments before I go and search.
PK
Funny.
Alright. Please post your kind and well-intentioned questions in a clear format as I have done, and I will do my best to answer them...or perhaps you don't have enough time, just like you don't have enough time to read the works of the great theological minds of the church.
Neither of you are making sense. If all sin leads to death, are you trying to tell me that there are varying degrees of death? Nonsense. If you are in hell, you are in hell, no matter what. It's called the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That is what we are referring to when we say 'hell'. There are no gray spots for the wicked; either you make it to Heaven, or you don't, in which case you go to Hades and accordingly, hell. If you go to hell, you are dead. You are in the aforementioned lake.
So if anyone cares to explain what other possible punishments there could be, please go ahead.
You just love to make me feel bad don't you?
Well, the same can be true of heaven. How is St. Mary the "highest" in heaven then below her are the heavenly creatures then the martyrs then the crossbearers etc...? How can you have more "life" than another person with "life"?
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95197#msg95197 date=1223421313] You just love to make me feel bad don't you?
Well, the same can be true of heaven. How is St. Mary the "highest" in heaven then below her are the heavenly creatures then the martyrs then the crossbearers etc...? How can you have more "life" than another person with "life"?
PK
Do we not say that Christ is THE source of Life? Good.
Our reward depends on how close we are to Him, which is translated through our actions and our resistance to the temptation of the enemy.
[quote=Revelation 21:27] But there shall by no means enter it [referring to Heaven] anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
So in order to even get into Heaven, you must be spotless.
Have not we always, always said that there is no gray area? Since when have we decided that there are different levels of punishments? Sure, there are different levels of rewards, but if even if you have one sin on your head that you purposely neglected to confess, you are held accountable for it. Going off of the 'one-liner verse', which somehow results in it being useless, we can conclude that if we have even ONE SIN, we DIE. Going back to what I said earlier, are there varying degrees of death? Are there? If someone is dead, they are dead, are they not? Likewise it is in this situation.
Heaven is life and a reward. Your reward in heaven will be based on your deeds as we both agree. Well, Hell is death and punishment. Those in hell will be dead SPIRITUALLY and the people's punishments will vary. Heaven and hell are basically exact opposites. If you can't be more "dead" than another, than you can't be more "alive" than another.
St. Ignatious of Antioch, in the late first and early second century, describe God as the furnace that a craftsman uses to temper a sword. When a properly prepared sword is placed within the fire, it makes it stronger and the sword takes on the properties of the fire, it gives off heat and light. However, this same fire will melt and destroy a sword that was not properly prepared.
St. Isaac the Syrian in the sixth century writes "Paradise is the love of God" and he also writes "...those who are punished in Gehannah, are scourged by the scourge of love". So the "fire" is the love of God, and we experience His love as either divine love, or as painful "scourge".
St. Basil the Great (fourth century) points out that the Three Children thrown into the fiery furnace were unharmed by the fire, yet the same fire burned and killed the servants at the entrance to the furnace.
According to St Gregory the Theologian, God Himself is Paradise and punishment for man, since each man tastes God's "energies" (His perceptible presence) according to the condition of his soul. St. Gregory further advises the next life will be "light for those whose mind is purified... in proportion to their degree of purity" and darkness "to those who have blinded their ruling organ [meaning the "mind"]...in proportion to their blindness..."
St. John Chrysostom (AD 344-407) wrote [in homily LXXVI] "let us clothe ourselves with spiritual fire, let us gird ourselves with its flame. No man who bears flame fears those who meet him; be it wild beast, be it man, be it snares innumerable, so long as he is armed with fire, all things stand out of his way, all things retire. The flame is intolerable, the fire can not be endured, it consumes all. With this fire let us clothe ourselves, offering up glory to our Lord Jesus Christ, with whom the Father, together with the Holy Spirit, be glory, might, honor, now and ever and world without end. Amen."
A friends’ response for the interpretation of: 1 John 5:16-17: If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. AND Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
+++ What is the sin that leads to death?
St. John speaks about the intercessory prayers. He teaches us that we ought to pray for all even the sinners as long as they are not committing sin leading to death.
St. John speaks about, “But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’” (Numbers 15:30-31).
Based on the previous command St. Paul says, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord and again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31).
Also St. Paul says, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6).
What is the sin that leads to death? It is to Deny Christ and blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. + + +
[right]يقول القديس أغسطينوس: [واضح هنا أن هناك إخوة لا نصلي من أجلهم مع أن ربنا يوصينا أن نصلي حتى من أجل الذين يضطهدوننا. فخطية الأخ هنا أشر من كل خطية المضطهد لنا. وواضح أن كلمة "أخ" هنا تعني الإنسان المسيحي كما في 1 كو ٧: 14-15... إنني أفترض أن خطية الموت هنا هي مقاومة الإنسان للحب الأخوي وامتلاء قلبه بالكراهية ضد النعمة التي بها تصالحنا مع اللَّه بعدما تعرفنا على اللَّه بنعمة ربنا يسوع المسيح. (أي مقاوم في داخل الكنيسة فيفقدهم نعمة الرب). أما الخطية التي ليست للموت فهي ألا يقوم الإنسان بواجبات الحب الأخوي عن ضعف في الروح... [/right]
(rough translation) St. Augustine says: It’s clear here that there are brothers we do not pray for; even though our Lord commanded us to pray even for those who persecute us. So the sin of a brother here is more evil than the sin of those who persecuted us. And it’s clear that the word "brothers” means the Christian man as in 1 Corinthians 7:14-15 ... I take it that the sin of death is the person’s challenge to the brotherhood love and the fullness of his heart with hate against the grace by which we reconciled with God after knowing God through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
As for the sin that is not of death, it is only when a person acts upon his love works towards brothers in the weakness of the Spirit.
Sin, in its very nature is "an offence to God"- not just that, but a counterfeit method that does not involve God's way, to get some desire. Please reflect on this.
- "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness" (1 Jn 3:4) That is sin is not following God's Law, or His Way or Will - "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." (1 Jn 5:17). In Appendix 1 I include what St. Augustine understands about this verse. - "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."(James 4:17) i.e. omission of known duty - "for whatever is not from faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23)
As a counterfeit method(1 Jn 3:4), we are substituting a covenant relationship with God that is trusting (Rom. 14:23), caring, honouring and wholesome with a relationship that either ignores the covenant relationship or distrusts it. A denial of that relationship or denial of the benefits of the relationship is an assault in the Nature of God. To lie, is to not be content with God's gifts to you. To cheat, is to distrust the plan God has for you. The list goes on.
No wonder, then, as sin is a self-imposed separation or non-communication between us and God in Whom true happiness exists, that we create chaos and wretchedness. This is very true also, because as God is also Creator of the Universe and ourselves, His Way would be most effective and harmonous with His other creatures, creation and Himself. A substitutive method, often by practice becomes the only method that is employed. If you sinned, you are more likely to sin again- this is most of the time because we are short-sighted, distrusting, or just do not have the motivation thus to do something else other than what got you temporary success. Thus an increase in resistance is imminent and most likely. This sort of resistance to God- to walk about His way, so as to bring the best eternal plan for you, means that you become one that is alienated, falling into "a debased mind" as well as sinful passions "which are not fitting" (Rom. 1:28)
In the story of Aman (Esther), Pontius Pilate, Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), Elymas the sorcer (Acts 13), destruction of Jerusalem, we can see that sin naturally leads to death, but not by one sin alone, but a continual refusal to repentance.
Further, the verse mentioned by you, Romans 6:23, is talking about a very different reality. Look at the contrast between the words. WAGE of sin--> death GIFT of God---> life What should immediately jump at us is that we earn death- that is sinning has the rewards of death, but living in Grace and abounding in it, we continue in the life "in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:23 cont'd), that is, it's not a reward, or something we got from effort.
If you read the appendix, it becomes clear that St. Augustine understands that that the sin leading to death, is one of someone not repentant, and not attempting to at all live in the bounds of grace. We have often incited that this is what Scripture calls "Blasphemy against the Spirit".
As Orthodox, we must view Scripture in relationship terms, rather than a legal context. We make much err, and miss the point if our approach to God is solely as this Judge who has arbitrary rules that He expects us to follow for His own selfish reasons. I am not implying that is what your approach is! Please, I love you very much, and I believed much so in what you have voiced; but when I approach Scripture as one that began with Covenants, and one of Jealous God that loves us, I found that there is quite a different meaning behind the verses. And by the way, it is becoming more and more consistent with the Church Fathers.
Appendix 1- The “sin,” therefore, of a brother, “unto death,” I suppose to be when, after the acknowledging of God through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, one fights against the brotherhood, and is set on by the fire-brands of hatred against the very grace through which he was reconciled to God. But “a sin not unto death” is when a person, not having alienated his love from his brother. yet through some infirmity of mind may have failed to exhibit the due offices of brotherhood. Wherefore, on the one hand, the Lord on the cross said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” since they had not yet, by being made partakers of the grace of the Holy Spirit, entered into the fellowship of holy brotherhood; and blessed Stephen in the Acts of the Apostles prays for them who are stoning him; because they had not yet believed Christ, and were not fighting against that grace of communion. On the other hand, the apostle Paul does not pray for Alexander, and the reason I suppose, is, that this man was a brother, and had sinned “unto death,” i.e. by opposing the brotherhood in a spirit of hatred.
I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
Further, here are some more hard evidence that not all sin is equal:
1. Christ tells Pilate that the Jewish leaders have committed a worse sin than him, saying “he who has handed me over to you has committed the greater sin” (Jn. 19:11).
2. Certain sins in the law are distinguished in a particular context as an abomination to God, implying that others are not as severe (e.g. Lev. 18:22 ; Duet 7:25, 23:18, Isa. 41:24 ) .
3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is set apart as a more severe sin than blasphemy of the Son (Matt. 12:31)
4. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists particular sins in such a way as to single them out because of their depraved nature, separating them from others.
5. There are degrees of punishment in Hell depending on the severity of the offense (Lk. 12:47-48).
6. Christ says of the Pharisees “You strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel” (Matt. 23:24 . If all sins are equal, Christ’s rebuke does not make any sense.
7. Related to the last, Christ also talked about the “weighter things of the law” (Matt. 23:23). If all sins are equal, there is no law (or violation of that law) that is weightier than others. They are all the same weight.
clay.....where did you get the "Appendix" part below. because i think it is what i posted before....but i hade it in arabic and i translated it, not knowing that it already is!!!
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95228#msg95228 date=1223466496] I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
So then why does the priest in the liturgy right before the commemoration of the saints say "give them all the heavenly reward"?
I got to go really quickly, but to answer your question, it says "Heavenly reward"- that phase does not implicate that Heaven is a reward itself, but that in Heaven there are rewards.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95238#msg95238 date=1223494118] clay.....where did you get the "Appendix" part below. because i think it is what i posted before....but i hade it in arabic and i translated it, not knowing that it already is!!!
The Appendix, I got from the COEPA's "Christian Orthodox Reference Library" CD-rom. It is something given out and sold in the Sydney Churches, I believe. If you want, I can post a copy to you if you live outside Australia. Just give me your address by PM.
Really sorry PopeKyrillos, I don't have a chance to elaborate just yet. Forgive me.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95239#msg95239 date=1223497901] [quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95228#msg95228 date=1223466496] I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
So then why does the priest in the liturgy right before the commemoration of the saints say "give them all the heavenly reward"?
So why does it say in the bible that bashemying against the spirit is worst of all? Would it not be equal to lying and murder....I am not convinced yett
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg95302#msg95302 date=1223569688] So why does it say in the bible that bashemying against the spirit is worst of all? Would it not be equal to lying and murder....I am not convinced yett
+mahraeel+
you.....meaning you are dead, not having the Holy Spirit in you. That means that you are eternally dead.
Again, when we say "The wage of sin is death," this death is taken away when the sin is repented for, confessed, forgiven and forgotten by God. That also happens thought the Holy Spirit, leading you to repent and confess….but if He’s not in you, who will lead you to God???
I think clay illustrated pretty well that all sins are not equal. And I think common sense tells us that lying and murder are very different. It takes a lot more evil inside a person to make them able to murder than it does for someone to lie, if that makes sense.
That's a simple example, but in other situations, the difference is a lot more blurred. Is homosexuality worse than pornography? Is swearing worse than lying? There are arguments for each side, but ultimately we can't know. So, in the end, I think its better for us to leave that alone. Because people can misuse their definitions of sin e.g. If someone decides for themselves that homosexuality is the worst sin of all, and then starts treating gays hatefully.
And I think it also depends a lot on the person's motives, a murder committed in the heat of the moment out of anger might be better than a murder that is committed in cold blood, with planning.
So how about we all agree that: sins are different in magnitude, in levels of punishment and in the damage that they cause However, that said, there are many cases where we are not fit to judge which is which. With that in mind, any judgements we make about what sins are worse than others are purely speculations, and we should never ever make judgements on specific cases especially when we don't know the surrounding circumstances.
I really don't think we can be sure about anything more than that.
i definitely agree with you!!!! sometimes i wonder why people need to look into such details in life.. i understand that it adds knowledge and creates a smarter way of thinking. yet, i still dunt get how knowing those little detailed details would effect people's actions... if its find out that homosexuality is not as bad as murder, would that make anyone care any less of the cosequence of homosexuality, and feel better while doing it??.. i really think we should just do the right thing, treating all sins to be just as bad as each other (even though i kno theyr not), and let God take care of the final rank..
Can I just comment- that there is a certain inclination in everyone of us to do some kind of wrong- something more in keeping with our personality. I think that homosexuality fits under that, though there is pretty hard evidence that homosexuality itself is not inheritable- but that there are more biological types that are more prone- a more casual association rather than causal association, if one gets my meaning. God does not expect us to be sinless- He does expect us to pursue righteousness- and His righteousness at that. So why the repentant sexually deviant fornicator, adulterer or homosexual may relapse, one that is actively living a life of repentance, we should not expect to be judged harshly. Sin, I tried to demonstrate, is a spiritual illness rather than a crime (though we cannot at times betray the strong association in Scripture and reality). In that context, we should look at these "abominations" as serious spiritual sickness- for sexual sins is also a sin to your own body- its self-defilement. Stemming from that, we should understand the strong and almost provocative words of Scripture against sexual sins, but I think we should be a bit reserved to judge- because we don't usually judge an illness- we assist treatment. And ultimately, a complete cure of any illness is by the grace of God- not a person's own self-will.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95216#msg95216 date=1223434990] As for the sin that is not of death, it is only when a person acts upon his love works towards brothers in the weakness of the Spirit.
Thx, and also pls pass my gratitude to your friend for taking the time to reply. Actually,I do not have a problem understanding both verses "sin leads to death and sin that does not lead to death".
Based on the explanation of St Augustine,are we now in agreement that there are 'greater and lesser sins', meaning,that all sins are inequal-eventhough the wage of every sin is death?
Another question, when the Lord told Pilate,that the one who delivered him to the enemy has committed 'greater sins', is the Lord implying that pilate has the chance to be saved? In the Ethiopian Tewahdo church tradtion, I read that Pilate has obtained salvation.Does anyone know,if other Oriental ,including the Coptic church has such tradition? How about the Eastern Churchs? I am only curious.
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg95383#msg95383 date=1223687530] Mina, can u explain a bit more what u were saying about the spirit?
+mahraeel+
the Holy Spirit is God IN us. right. we get to heaven through it. We all know that there is NO salvation other then through Christ, One of the Trinity. So without Jesus, no salvation, no heaven, only the other place which is hell, which is death. this is the basic of our belief. Now the Person who keeps us in Christ is the Holy Spirit. Christ said I will send you the "HELPER" the Holy Spirit to continue our life on earth.
got it?!!
NOW. The ultimate sin then you can do literally against the Holy Spirit, the Person of the Trinity, is to not let Him work in you....and we can define the works of the Holy Spirit in us. That's the ultimate sin. because if HE doesn't work in you, then you don't get to Jesus, then no salvation, no heaven, hell and DEATH. So since you just denied the connection between you and God, you are bring to yourself eternal death......The way of no coming back.
Remember a little before and see how we spoke about sins being treated different from one to another and how any sin's wage is death. but here, if you think about it a little, you'll find that the person who sins towards the Holy Spirit doesn't even define the "sin" to be a SIN!!!
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95228#msg95228 date=1223466496] I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
Further, here are some more hard evidence that not all sin is equal:
1. Christ tells Pilate that the Jewish leaders have committed a worse sin than him, saying “he who has handed me over to you has committed the greater sin” (Jn. 19:11).
2. Certain sins in the law are distinguished in a particular context as an abomination to God, implying that others are not as severe (e.g. Lev. 18:22 ; Duet 7:25, 23:18, Isa. 41:24 ) .
3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is set apart as a more severe sin than blasphemy of the Son (Matt. 12:31)
4. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists particular sins in such a way as to single them out because of their depraved nature, separating them from others.
5. There are degrees of punishment in Hell depending on the severity of the offense (Lk. 12:47-48).
6. Christ says of the Pharisees “You strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel” (Matt. 23:24 . If all sins are equal, Christ’s rebuke does not make any sense.
7. Related to the last, Christ also talked about the “weighter things of the law” (Matt. 23:23). If all sins are equal, there is no law (or violation of that law) that is weightier than others. They are all the same weight.
YOU SAID NOT ALL SINS ARE EQUAL, I HAVE TO DISSAGREE..... listen to this AMAZING Sermon by POPE SHENOUDA... LISTEN TO THIS ANd CORRECT ME AFTER.... H.H. ADDRESSES THIS IN THE VERY BEGINING of His Sermon..... Contact me so i can send you this ......
It is AMAZING and until you have listen to it and corrected me, I will not be convinced that all sins are not equal..
Comments
We've asked more questions than you and you haven't answered any of them. I'm struggling to find time to come to Tasbeha anymore so although researching in the books of the church fathers would benefit me spiritually, I really cant find much time. I'm waiting for your answers first to our arguments before I go and search.
PK
Severus,
We've asked more questions than you and you haven't answered any of them. I'm struggling to find time to come to Tasbeha anymore so although researching in the books of the church fathers would benefit me spiritually, I really cant find much time. I'm waiting for your answers first to our arguments before I go and search.
PK
Funny.
Alright. Please post your kind and well-intentioned questions in a clear format as I have done, and I will do my best to answer them...or perhaps you don't have enough time, just like you don't have enough time to read the works of the great theological minds of the church.
Neither of you are making sense. If all sin leads to death, are you trying to tell me that there are varying degrees of death? Nonsense. If you are in hell, you are in hell, no matter what. It's called the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That is what we are referring to when we say 'hell'. There are no gray spots for the wicked; either you make it to Heaven, or you don't, in which case you go to Hades and accordingly, hell. If you go to hell, you are dead. You are in the aforementioned lake.
So if anyone cares to explain what other possible punishments there could be, please go ahead.
Since this somehow turned to a crap-match between me and you for 'points' or 'honor', forget it.
Thanks! This is your way of saying ' I can not substantiate my claims'. I felt you were trying to score a point and I said it.There is nothing wrong with saying what one feels. You have not dished out anything worthwhile that benefited mean the topic.Go back and read your own responses.Your one liners are just that,one- liners! If you dont know for sure, then that is Ok ,it is not a sin.Correct me if my feeling was wrong. Otherwise, let's move on.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95190#msg95190 date=1223419413]
Since this somehow turned to a crap-match between me and you for 'points' or 'honor', forget it.
Thanks! This is your way of saying ' I can not substantiate my claims'. I felt you were trying to score a point and I said it.There is nothing wrong with saying what one feels. You have no dihsed out anything worthwhile that benefited me.Your one liner responses are just that,one- liners! If you dont know for sure, then that is Ok.Correct me if my feeling was wrong. Otherwise, let's move on.
See the above refutation.
Care to graciously repost your questions in a nice, clear list?
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95191#msg95191 date=1223419453]
Severus,
We've asked more questions than you and you haven't answered any of them. I'm struggling to find time to come to Tasbeha anymore so although researching in the books of the church fathers would benefit me spiritually, I really cant find much time. I'm waiting for your answers first to our arguments before I go and search.
PK
Funny.
Alright. Please post your kind and well-intentioned questions in a clear format as I have done, and I will do my best to answer them...or perhaps you don't have enough time, just like you don't have enough time to read the works of the great theological minds of the church.
Neither of you are making sense. If all sin leads to death, are you trying to tell me that there are varying degrees of death? Nonsense. If you are in hell, you are in hell, no matter what. It's called the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That is what we are referring to when we say 'hell'. There are no gray spots for the wicked; either you make it to Heaven, or you don't, in which case you go to Hades and accordingly, hell. If you go to hell, you are dead. You are in the aforementioned lake.
So if anyone cares to explain what other possible punishments there could be, please go ahead.
You just love to make me feel bad don't you?
Well, the same can be true of heaven. How is St. Mary the "highest" in heaven then below her are the heavenly creatures then the martyrs then the crossbearers etc...? How can you have more "life" than another person with "life"?
PK
You just love to make me feel bad don't you?
Well, the same can be true of heaven. How is St. Mary the "highest" in heaven then below her are the heavenly creatures then the martyrs then the crossbearers etc...? How can you have more "life" than another person with "life"?
PK
Do we not say that Christ is THE source of Life? Good.
Our reward depends on how close we are to Him, which is translated through our actions and our resistance to the temptation of the enemy.
[quote=Revelation 21:27]
But there shall by no means enter it [referring to Heaven] anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
So in order to even get into Heaven, you must be spotless.
Have not we always, always said that there is no gray area? Since when have we decided that there are different levels of punishments? Sure, there are different levels of rewards, but if even if you have one sin on your head that you purposely neglected to confess, you are held accountable for it. Going off of the 'one-liner verse', which somehow results in it being useless, we can conclude that if we have even ONE SIN, we DIE. Going back to what I said earlier, are there varying degrees of death? Are there? If someone is dead, they are dead, are they not? Likewise it is in this situation.
PK
St. Isaac the Syrian in the sixth century writes "Paradise is the love of God" and he also writes "...those who are punished in Gehannah, are scourged by the scourge of love". So the "fire" is the love of God, and we experience His love as either divine love, or as painful "scourge".
St. Basil the Great (fourth century) points out that the Three Children thrown into the fiery furnace were unharmed by the fire, yet the same fire burned and killed the servants at the entrance to the furnace.
According to St Gregory the Theologian, God Himself is Paradise and punishment for man, since each man tastes God's "energies" (His perceptible presence) according to the condition of his soul. St. Gregory further advises the next life will be "light for those whose mind is purified... in proportion to their degree of purity" and darkness "to those who have blinded their ruling organ [meaning the "mind"]...in proportion to their blindness..."
St. John Chrysostom (AD 344-407) wrote [in homily LXXVI] "let us clothe ourselves with spiritual fire, let us gird ourselves with its flame. No man who bears flame fears those who meet him; be it wild beast, be it man, be it snares innumerable, so long as he is armed with fire, all things stand out of his way, all things retire. The flame is intolerable, the fire can not be endured, it consumes all. With this fire let us clothe ourselves, offering up glory to our Lord Jesus Christ, with whom the Father, together with the Holy Spirit, be glory, might, honor, now and ever and world without end. Amen."
Quotes 1-3 + 5 show simply that God is the same. How we feel in his presence is simply the effect of our deeds and actions.
Quote 4 is a strong argument...but, if we can get perhaps one more opinion on the matter from another Father, then I would finally give in.
1 John 5:16-17:
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
AND
Romans 6:23:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
+++
What is the sin that leads to death?
St. John speaks about the intercessory prayers. He teaches us that we ought to pray for all even the sinners as long as they are not committing sin leading to death.
St. John speaks about, “But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’” (Numbers 15:30-31).
Based on the previous command St. Paul says, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord and again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31).
Also St. Paul says, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6).
What is the sin that leads to death? It is to Deny Christ and blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.
+ + +
[واضح هنا أن هناك إخوة لا نصلي من أجلهم مع أن ربنا يوصينا أن نصلي حتى من أجل الذين يضطهدوننا. فخطية الأخ هنا أشر من كل خطية المضطهد لنا. وواضح أن كلمة "أخ" هنا تعني الإنسان المسيحي كما في 1 كو ٧: 14-15... إنني أفترض أن خطية الموت هنا هي مقاومة الإنسان للحب الأخوي وامتلاء قلبه بالكراهية ضد النعمة التي بها تصالحنا مع اللَّه بعدما تعرفنا على اللَّه بنعمة ربنا يسوع المسيح. (أي مقاوم في داخل الكنيسة فيفقدهم نعمة الرب).
أما الخطية التي ليست للموت فهي ألا يقوم الإنسان بواجبات الحب الأخوي عن ضعف في الروح... [/right]
(rough translation) St. Augustine says:
It’s clear here that there are brothers we do not pray for; even though our Lord commanded us to pray even for those who persecute us. So the sin of a brother here is more evil than the sin of those who persecuted us. And it’s clear that the word "brothers” means the Christian man as in 1 Corinthians 7:14-15 ... I take it that the sin of death is the person’s challenge to the brotherhood love and the fullness of his heart with hate against the grace by which we reconciled with God after knowing God through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
As for the sin that is not of death, it is only when a person acts upon his love works towards brothers in the weakness of the Spirit.
- "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness" (1 Jn 3:4) That is sin is not following God's Law, or His Way or Will
- "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." (1 Jn 5:17). In Appendix 1 I include what St. Augustine understands about this verse.
- "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."(James 4:17) i.e. omission of known duty
- "for whatever is not from faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23)
As a counterfeit method(1 Jn 3:4), we are substituting a covenant relationship with God that is trusting (Rom. 14:23), caring, honouring and wholesome with a relationship that either ignores the covenant relationship or distrusts it. A denial of that relationship or denial of the benefits of the relationship is an assault in the Nature of God. To lie, is to not be content with God's gifts to you. To cheat, is to distrust the plan God has for you. The list goes on.
No wonder, then, as sin is a self-imposed separation or non-communication between us and God in Whom true happiness exists, that we create chaos and wretchedness. This is very true also, because as God is also Creator of the Universe and ourselves, His Way would be most effective and harmonous with His other creatures, creation and Himself. A substitutive method, often by practice becomes the only method that is employed. If you sinned, you are more likely to sin again- this is most of the time because we are short-sighted, distrusting, or just do not have the motivation thus to do something else other than what got you temporary success. Thus an increase in resistance is imminent and most likely. This sort of resistance to God- to walk about His way, so as to bring the best eternal plan for you, means that you become one that is alienated, falling into "a debased mind" as well as sinful passions "which are not fitting" (Rom. 1:28)
In the story of Aman (Esther), Pontius Pilate, Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), Elymas the sorcer (Acts 13), destruction of Jerusalem, we can see that sin naturally leads to death, but not by one sin alone, but a continual refusal to repentance.
Further, the verse mentioned by you, Romans 6:23, is talking about a very different reality. Look at the contrast between the words.
WAGE of sin--> death
GIFT of God---> life
What should immediately jump at us is that we earn death- that is sinning has the rewards of death, but living in Grace and abounding in it, we continue in the life "in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:23 cont'd), that is, it's not a reward, or something we got from effort.
If you read the appendix, it becomes clear that St. Augustine understands that that the sin leading to death, is one of someone not repentant, and not attempting to at all live in the bounds of grace. We have often incited that this is what Scripture calls "Blasphemy against the Spirit".
As Orthodox, we must view Scripture in relationship terms, rather than a legal context. We make much err, and miss the point if our approach to God is solely as this Judge who has arbitrary rules that He expects us to follow for His own selfish reasons. I am not implying that is what your approach is! Please, I love you very much, and I believed much so in what you have voiced; but when I approach Scripture as one that began with Covenants, and one of Jealous God that loves us, I found that there is quite a different meaning behind the verses. And by the way, it is becoming more and more consistent with the Church Fathers.
Appendix
1- The “sin,” therefore, of a brother, “unto death,” I suppose to be
when, after the acknowledging of God through the grace of our Lord Jesus
Christ, one fights against the brotherhood, and is set on by the fire-brands
of hatred against the very grace through which he was reconciled to God.
But “a sin not unto death” is when a person, not having alienated his love
from his brother. yet through some infirmity of mind may have failed to
exhibit the due offices of brotherhood. Wherefore, on the one hand, the
Lord on the cross said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what
they do,” since they had not yet, by being made partakers of the grace of
the Holy Spirit, entered into the fellowship of holy brotherhood; and
blessed Stephen in the Acts of the Apostles prays for them who are
stoning him; because they had not yet believed Christ, and were not
fighting against that grace of communion. On the other hand, the apostle
Paul does not pray for Alexander, and the reason I suppose, is, that this
man was a brother, and had sinned “unto death,” i.e. by opposing the
brotherhood in a spirit of hatred.
Further, here are some more hard evidence that not all sin is equal:
1. Christ tells Pilate that the Jewish leaders have committed a worse sin than him, saying “he who has handed me over to you has committed the greater sin” (Jn. 19:11).
2. Certain sins in the law are distinguished in a particular context as an abomination to God, implying that others are not as severe (e.g. Lev. 18:22 ; Duet 7:25, 23:18, Isa. 41:24 ) .
3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is set apart as a more severe sin than blasphemy of the Son (Matt. 12:31)
4. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists particular sins in such a way as to single them out because of their depraved nature, separating them from others.
5. There are degrees of punishment in Hell depending on the severity of the offense (Lk. 12:47-48).
6. Christ says of the Pharisees “You strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel” (Matt. 23:24 . If all sins are equal, Christ’s rebuke does not make any sense.
7. Related to the last, Christ also talked about the “weighter things of the law” (Matt. 23:23). If all sins are equal, there is no law (or violation of that law) that is weightier than others. They are all the same weight.
What you have done here is a perfect exegesis on the issue. I'm well-convinced.
I applaud you :D
I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
So then why does the priest in the liturgy right before the commemoration of the saints say "give them all the heavenly reward"?
Pk
clay.....where did you get the "Appendix" part below. because i think it is what i posted before....but i hade it in arabic and i translated it, not knowing that it already is!!!
The Appendix, I got from the COEPA's "Christian Orthodox Reference Library" CD-rom. It is something given out and sold in the Sydney Churches, I believe. If you want, I can post a copy to you if you live outside Australia. Just give me your address by PM.
Really sorry PopeKyrillos, I don't have a chance to elaborate just yet. Forgive me.
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95228#msg95228 date=1223466496]
I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
So then why does the priest in the liturgy right before the commemoration of the saints say "give them all the heavenly reward"?
Pk
Its the litanies for the oblations http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2044
last one on the page.
+mahraeel+
So why does it say in the bible that bashemying against the spirit is worst of all? Would it not be equal to lying and murder....I am not convinced yett
+mahraeel+
you.....meaning you are dead, not having the Holy Spirit in you. That means that you are eternally dead.
Again, when we say "The wage of sin is death," this death is taken away when the sin is repented for, confessed, forgiven and forgotten by God. That also happens thought the Holy Spirit, leading you to repent and confess….but if He’s not in you, who will lead you to God???
Do you get the concept am trying to get to??
I think clay illustrated pretty well that all sins are not equal. And I think common sense tells us that lying and murder are very different. It takes a lot more evil inside a person to make them able to murder than it does for someone to lie, if that makes sense.
That's a simple example, but in other situations, the difference is a lot more blurred. Is homosexuality worse than pornography? Is swearing worse than lying? There are arguments for each side, but ultimately we can't know. So, in the end, I think its better for us to leave that alone. Because people can misuse their definitions of sin e.g. If someone decides for themselves that homosexuality is the worst sin of all, and then starts treating gays hatefully.
And I think it also depends a lot on the person's motives, a murder committed in the heat of the moment out of anger might be better than a murder that is committed in cold blood, with planning.
So how about we all agree that: sins are different in magnitude, in levels of punishment and in the damage that they cause However, that said, there are many cases where we are not fit to judge which is which. With that in mind, any judgements we make about what sins are worse than others are purely speculations, and we should never ever make judgements on specific cases especially when we don't know the surrounding circumstances.
I really don't think we can be sure about anything more than that.
Pray for me :)
sometimes i wonder why people need to look into such details in life.. i understand that it adds knowledge and creates a smarter way of thinking. yet, i still dunt get how knowing those little detailed details would effect people's actions... if its find out that homosexuality is not as bad as murder, would that make anyone care any less of the cosequence of homosexuality, and feel better while doing it??.. i really think we should just do the right thing, treating all sins to be just as bad as each other (even though i kno theyr not), and let God take care of the final rank..
+mahraeel+
As for the sin that is not of death, it is only when a person acts upon his love works towards brothers in the weakness of the Spirit.
Thx, and also pls pass my gratitude to your friend for taking the time to reply. Actually,I do not have a problem understanding both verses "sin leads to death and sin that does not lead to death".
Based on the explanation of St Augustine,are we now in agreement that there are 'greater and lesser sins', meaning,that all sins are inequal-eventhough the wage of every sin is death?
Another question, when the Lord told Pilate,that the one who delivered him to the enemy has committed 'greater sins', is the Lord implying that pilate has the chance to be saved? In the Ethiopian Tewahdo church tradtion, I read that Pilate has obtained salvation.Does anyone know,if other Oriental ,including the Coptic church has such tradition? How about the Eastern Churchs? I am only curious.
Mina, can u explain a bit more what u were saying about the spirit?
+mahraeel+
the Holy Spirit is God IN us. right. we get to heaven through it. We all know that there is NO salvation other then through Christ, One of the Trinity. So without Jesus, no salvation, no heaven, only the other place which is hell, which is death. this is the basic of our belief. Now the Person who keeps us in Christ is the Holy Spirit. Christ said I will send you the "HELPER" the Holy Spirit to continue our life on earth.
got it?!!
NOW. The ultimate sin then you can do literally against the Holy Spirit, the Person of the Trinity, is to not let Him work in you....and we can define the works of the Holy Spirit in us. That's the ultimate sin. because if HE doesn't work in you, then you don't get to Jesus, then no salvation, no heaven, hell and DEATH. So since you just denied the connection between you and God, you are bring to yourself eternal death......The way of no coming back.
Remember a little before and see how we spoke about sins being treated different from one to another and how any sin's wage is death. but here, if you think about it a little, you'll find that the person who sins towards the Holy Spirit doesn't even define the "sin" to be a SIN!!!
I looked above, "Heaven" is not a reward, it is Grace. It is something initiated by God, and something we participate in, and not become listless, but it is not a reward.
Further, here are some more hard evidence that not all sin is equal:
1. Christ tells Pilate that the Jewish leaders have committed a worse sin than him, saying “he who has handed me over to you has committed the greater sin” (Jn. 19:11).
2. Certain sins in the law are distinguished in a particular context as an abomination to God, implying that others are not as severe (e.g. Lev. 18:22 ; Duet 7:25, 23:18, Isa. 41:24 ) .
3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is set apart as a more severe sin than blasphemy of the Son (Matt. 12:31)
4. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists particular sins in such a way as to single them out because of their depraved nature, separating them from others.
5. There are degrees of punishment in Hell depending on the severity of the offense (Lk. 12:47-48).
6. Christ says of the Pharisees “You strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel” (Matt. 23:24 . If all sins are equal, Christ’s rebuke does not make any sense.
7. Related to the last, Christ also talked about the “weighter things of the law” (Matt. 23:23). If all sins are equal, there is no law (or violation of that law) that is weightier than others. They are all the same weight.
YOU SAID NOT ALL SINS ARE EQUAL, I HAVE TO DISSAGREE..... listen to this AMAZING Sermon by POPE SHENOUDA... LISTEN TO THIS ANd CORRECT ME AFTER.... H.H. ADDRESSES THIS IN THE VERY BEGINING of His Sermon..... Contact me so i can send you this ......
It is AMAZING and until you have listen to it and corrected me, I will not be convinced that all sins are not equal..
God Bless
Coptic Pharaoh