[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95043#msg95043 date=1223081133] It is of the Orthodox Faith to believe that all sins of equal. To say otherwise would be to go against the Orthodox doctrines that we are to believe.
There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
Pride can be considered, excuse the reference, 'First among Equals'.
I am not understanding. How does the Orthodox church explain those verses I highlighted? what does it mean when Jesus says "greater sin"? What did King David mean when he confessed his sin as GREAT? How about that of Moses? Don't these examples imply there are lesser sins as well? I do not know,but I think so. Also, I shall be grateful if you could cite the source of the Orthodox doctrine that teaches on the equality of all sins.I would like to get it right so as not to deviate from the true teaching .
We use the single verse, "the wages of sin is death", as the refutation to the idea of lesser and greater sins. That is the Orthodox source that I know of.
That verse in no way suggests that all sin are equal. Scripture clearly treats sin different- causing children to sin is worse than to adults; pride more than theft and adultery, apostacy more than ignorance, murder more than self-defence, Idolatory more than blaming God the list goes on.
The single verse is being so misused, and defies logic. In Exodus and Levetics, some of Numbers and Deuteronomy, sin is described in different emotive terms, and have different chastisements and sacrifices. King Solomon called some sins "deadly", St. Paul re-iterates the concept that there is "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death".
So I find it outrageous to suggest that all sin are equal, just because all sin eventually leads to death- because sin is the counterfeit to life.
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95048#msg95048 date=1223102926] That verse in no way suggests that all sin are equal. Scripture clearly treats sin different- causing children to sin is worse than to adults; pride more than theft and adultery, apostacy more than ignorance, murder more than self-defence, Idolatory more than blaming God the list goes on.
The single verse is being so misused, and defies logic. In Exodus and Levetics, some of Numbers, sin is described in different emotive terms, and have different chastisements and sacrifices. King Solomon called some sins "deadly" in Proverbs, St. Paul re-iterates the concept that there is "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death".
So I find it outrageous to suggest that all sin are equal, just because all sin eventually leads to death- because sin is the counterfeit to life.
All sins are punished by death "For the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). The definition of 'death' is separation from God but at different levels of punishment as our Lord said to His disciples "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Mt 10:14-15).
Let's say I lied the other day and neglected to confess it. It was still on my consciousness. I get into a car accident and die.
This would lead to the same result as if I killed someone and someone in return killed me. Meaning, I am judged, and go to Hades, and when the Lord returns, I go to Hell.
We know that they're are levels to hell. Probably many people reading this are familiar with the story of Tamav Irene. She saw a woman crying one day in the church, and tamav really felt like that woman needed her help. So Tamav had one of the nuns bring the woman to her. The woman explained to tamav that her husband was an alcoholic. He never came to church, he was most likely cheating on her, and he used to beat her up badly for the smallest things. She even told tamav that he would probably beat her up for just going to church. After tamav understood the situation, she told the woman that she herself and the other nuns would fast for her three days so that God will help her. The woman also fasted the three days with them. During those three days of fasting, as the man was asleep, Abu Seifen woke up the man and sat talking with him for over an hour. The reason that I am telling this story is because as Abu Seifen appeared to the man, he explained hell. He told the man what heaven looks like, and what hell looks like. He said the EASIEST part of hell is a room with a un-tolerable odor full of people who are extremely depressed. He then told him that the WORST part of hell is were Judas is right now with punishments not bearable for the eye to observe. So from this miracle, we know that there are levels to hell. Obviously, let's not try to get there from the start and put our aim towards heaven.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95045#msg95045 date=1223085313] We use the single verse, "the wages of sin is death", as the refutation to the idea of lesser and greater sins. That is the Orthodox source that I know of.
Nah, I am not convinced.The formidable church of St Athanisius and other church giants is much more than the one liner verse "the wages of sin is death". I have given you few examples from the Bible that clearly show,there are varying degree of sins.The Orthodox church does not ignore those verses.Moreover,The Lord's reply to Pilate confirms that there are greater and lesser sins.
As Clay pointed out, the method of punishment for transgressed laws in biblical Israel were not all the same. The punishment for kidnapping or rape was death , whereas the punishment for theft was their restoration (check in Exodus).In other words, the punishment fits the crime. So we need to do some research to find out the position of the church, before 'We' reach a conclusion.
On Homosexuality:
God does not tolerate Homosexuality.The Coptic Orthodox church, which is the true body of Christ should not tolerate it either,unless it chooses to emulate the Roman Catholic church or other churchs that have gone bananas:
Genesis 19 describes how God felt about gays of Sodom and Gomorrah:
19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
God did not tolerate them and says:
19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
In Leveticus 18:22-23, God severely condemns a man sleeping with a man. For example ,in Leveticus 20:13, God says:
" If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them".
In Romans 1:26-27,St Paul says:
" For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet".
1Timothy 9-10 says:
"understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
hezekial has a pointt...yea iim kind of confused. okay lets say u tell abouna i lied, hes like malesh dont doo it again. if u tell him u hav a boyfriend he looks at u like: what???? so...........its implying one is worse than the other. murder is worse than to lie....
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg95094#msg95094 date=1223234661] hezekial has a pointt...yea iim kind of confused. okay lets say u tell abouna i lied, hes like malesh dont doo it again. if u tell him u hav a boyfriend he looks at u like: what???? so...........its implying one is worse than the other. murder is worse than to lie....
+mahraeel+
Kind of funny because that's exactly what I was just thinking before I read this hehe.
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg95110#msg95110 date=1223243425] lol yea please understand im not arguing. lol i just dont get it haha thankss personally thats wat i thught alll my lifee
+mahraeel+
Not at all. I just want to see what the Fathers of the Church have to say, that's all.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95109#msg95109 date=1223243292] I want to see the words of a Church Father on this subject, now that you bring them up.
What's wrong with the tamav Irene example? Although Abu Seifen isn't really a church father, he's still a great saint.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95112#msg95112 date=1223244245] [quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95109#msg95109 date=1223243292] I want to see the words of a Church Father on this subject, now that you bring them up.
What's wrong with the tamav Irene example? Although Abu Seifen isn't really a church father, he's still a great saint.
PK
When the term 'Church Father' is said, it means a very specific group of people. Figures such as St. Athanasius, St. Cyril, the Cappadocian Fathers, Origen, and so on.
Not that there is anything wrong with the saints that you mentioned, but I am looking for a Church Father's opinion.
The difference is obvious (between momentary lying and being in an illicit relationship). One is a common weakness, habitual, but not constant sin that is being repented and the other is rare weakness, still being pursued and in defiance.
The thing with sexual sin is that it defiles yourself, as well. It is a sin against yourself. I am not syaing that lying does not distort your image of God, but the Bible says "whoever commits sexual sin...also sins against himself".
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94816#msg94816 date=1222809867] Yes you may have seen this topic Sprout out before. It needs to be said that the coptic church DOESN'T know squat about Homosexuality has anyone read the book on Homosexuality and the Ordination of women? Better yet I'll just give you this link to a youtube post I found earlier today.
The church's only approach seems to be only condemnation.
A massege from Youtube:
This video has been removed by the user.
I guess the user read our loooooong post right here somehow.....
I don't think that any church, NOT ONLY the Coptic Church will ever take the time to get into such subject. Homosexuality is a gray area not many people feel comfortable talking about or give an opinion on. And I don't think it’s appropriate or of high importance to come up as something to get educated about. God made Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve.
It really makes me cringe when I hear Christians calling something "grey".
You said "homosexuality is a grey area". This is very destructive. If we start to say that homosexual practices are "grey" - it's neither bad nor good - its basically "unknown" - we are not living in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit should tell us if something is bad or good.
If you read Isiah, he clearly states "Woe to you who change right from wrong and wrong from right".
Such language; i.e. "its grey" - does not only discourage repentance, but encourages the person to remain in his/her ways even longer. Why then wouldn't someone say to themselves "OK - well the CHurch sees this as a grey area, let remain be gay with complete justification of my condition until it (the Church) decides whether it is wrong or right?".
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95179#msg95179 date=1223406787] I take it that the silence that now befalls this thread is proof the not one could find evidence from the Fathers of the Church.
can i ask evidence for what exactly....sorry i wasn't following and i am to lazy to go back and read!!! :D
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95180#msg95180 date=1223408177] [quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95179#msg95179 date=1223406787] I take it that the silence that now befalls this thread is proof the not one could find evidence from the Fathers of the Church.
can i ask evidence for what exactly....sorry i wasn't following and i am to lazy to go back and read!!! :D
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95181#msg95181 date=1223409257] [quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95180#msg95180 date=1223408177] [quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95179#msg95179 date=1223406787] I take it that the silence that now befalls this thread is proof the not one could find evidence from the Fathers of the Church.
can i ask evidence for what exactly....sorry i wasn't following and i am to lazy to go back and read!!! :D
That different sins are worse than others.
i thought we agreed on the fact the "the wage of sin is death" in any case. but the effects (consequences) of the sins are what is different, and is what can be considered "worst" then others!!!! right?!
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95181#msg95181 date=1223409257] That different sins are worse than others.
the mentality of denying that is something ALL of us do.
we always say that this sin is not as this so we can just ease our ways out of it or of doing. We all are guilty of this, I am first. but that doesn't mean we have to define things to fit our wants!!!
I think you are talking to me,right? Then,you must address me directly,so that PK or any body else does not get confused.Now, I have not quoted any Church father. I said 'The formidable Orthodox church of St Athanisius...' to merely stress the greatness of the Orthodox church and that it has explanation for every biblical verse and does not settle with a single verse to explain away other verses, including the Lord's verse .The Bible is the inspired word of God.Every verse is God's word and the Orthodox church sees it that way. I gave you verses that give me different understanding of the degree of sins.Your replies are no longer than few sentences and you did not even attempt to explain the verses that speak of 'lesser and greater sins', that I mentioned. If you are trying to score a point in any rate,then I am not your guest of honor.However, this is what you wrote:
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95043#msg95043 date=1223081133] It is of the Orthodox Faith to believe that all sins of equal. To say otherwise would be to go against the Orthodox doctrines that we are to believe. There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
And then you added:
We use the single verse, "the wages of sin is death", as the refutation to the idea of lesser and greater sins. That is the Orthodox source that I know of.
It seems to me that you are arguing with absolute certainty. That means, the onus to prove to us falls squarely on you and not on me;that the Orthodox church does indeed teach as you claim , because you are the one who said 'We use..' Show me that 'We use...', please, so that I am enlightened.
I think you are talking to me,right? Then,you must address me directly,so that PK or any body else does not get confused.Now, I have not quoted any Church father. I said 'The formidable Orthodox church of St Athanisius...' to merely stress the greatness of the Orthodox church and that it has explanation for every biblical verse and does not settle with a single verse to explain away other verses, including the Lord's verse .The Bible is the inspired word of God.Every verse is God's word and the Orthodox church sees it that way. I gave you verses that give me different understanding of the degree of sins.Your replies are no longer than few sentences and you did not even attempt to explain the verses that speak of 'lesser and greater sins', that I mentioned. If you are trying to score a point in any rate,then I am not your guest of honor.However, this is what you wrote:
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95043#msg95043 date=1223081133] It is of the Orthodox Faith to believe that all sins of equal. To say otherwise would be to go against the Orthodox doctrines that we are to believe. There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
And then you added:
We use the single verse, "the wages of sin is death", as the refutation to the idea of lesser and greater sins. That is the Orthodox source that I know of.
It seems to me that you are arguing with absolute certainty. That means, the onus to prove to us falls squarely on you and not on me;that the Orthodox church does indeed teach as you claim , because you are the one who said 'We use..' Show me that 'We use...', please, so that I am enlightened.
what in the world are you 2 arguing about. both your statements are continuation of each other.....do the math.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95187#msg95187 date=1223417285] what in the world are you 2 arguing about. both your statements are continuation of each other.....do the math.
SIN = DEATH
SIN = many kinds = EVERY SIN
THEN
EVERY SIN = DEATH
therefore ALL SINS are equal in wage....
Maths has no place here. If it were so,we would be talking about facts and not faith.If you are willing to explain to me the following verse and other verses I mentioned earlier that clearly speak of 'greater and lesser sins '(even though every sin is rejected by God).Please scroll up to read them and explain them accurately, so that we dont go in circles.For example, what did Jesus mean when he said ' The one who delivered to me has GREATER SIN?As far as I am concerend, the emphasis is on GREAT and if there is Greater sin,then it follows that there are also lesser sins.If my take is wrong, share your views so that I get is right.
What exactly is meant by the following verse? Notice the parts I bolded.
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg95189#msg95189 date=1223418338] [quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95187#msg95187 date=1223417285] what in the world are you 2 arguing about. both your statements are continuation of each other.....do the math.
SIN = DEATH
SIN = many kinds = EVERY SIN
THEN
EVERY SIN = DEATH
therefore ALL SINS are equal in wage....
Maths has no place here. If it were so,we would be talking about facts and not faith.If you are willing to explain to me the following verse and other verses I mentioned earlier that clearly speak of 'greater and lesser sins '(even though every sin is rejected by God).Please scroll up to read them and explain them accurately, so that we dont go in circles.For example, what did Jesus mean when he said ' The one who delivered to me has GREATER SIN?As far as I am concerend, the emphasis is on GREAT and if there is Greater sin,then it follows that there are also lesser sins.If my take is wrong, share your views so that I get is right.
What exactly is meant by the following verse? Notice the parts I bolded.
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
I will follow up tomorrow!
Since this somehow turned to a crap-match between me and you for 'points' or 'honor', forget it.
Comments
It is of the Orthodox Faith to believe that all sins of equal. To say otherwise would be to go against the Orthodox doctrines that we are to believe.
There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
Pride can be considered, excuse the reference, 'First among Equals'.
I am not understanding. How does the Orthodox church explain those verses I highlighted? what does it mean when Jesus says "greater sin"? What did King David mean when he confessed his sin as GREAT? How about that of Moses? Don't these examples imply there are lesser sins as well? I do not know,but I think so. Also, I shall be grateful if you could cite the source of the Orthodox doctrine that teaches on the equality of all sins.I would like to get it right so as not to deviate from the true teaching .
Thx.
It is an interesting debate indeed.
The single verse is being so misused, and defies logic. In Exodus and Levetics, some of Numbers and Deuteronomy, sin is described in different emotive terms, and have different chastisements and sacrifices. King Solomon called some sins "deadly", St. Paul re-iterates the concept that there is "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death".
So I find it outrageous to suggest that all sin are equal, just because all sin eventually leads to death- because sin is the counterfeit to life.
That verse in no way suggests that all sin are equal. Scripture clearly treats sin different- causing children to sin is worse than to adults; pride more than theft and adultery, apostacy more than ignorance, murder more than self-defence, Idolatory more than blaming God the list goes on.
The single verse is being so misused, and defies logic. In Exodus and Levetics, some of Numbers, sin is described in different emotive terms, and have different chastisements and sacrifices. King Solomon called some sins "deadly" in Proverbs, St. Paul re-iterates the concept that there is "sin leading to death" and "sin not leading to death".
So I find it outrageous to suggest that all sin are equal, just because all sin eventually leads to death- because sin is the counterfeit to life.
All sins are punished by death "For the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). The definition of 'death' is separation from God but at different levels of punishment as our Lord said to His disciples "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Mt 10:14-15).
Here's the link: http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=575&catid=346
This would lead to the same result as if I killed someone and someone in return killed me. Meaning, I am judged, and go to Hades, and when the Lord returns, I go to Hell.
What is the difference in punishments then?
PK
We use the single verse, "the wages of sin is death", as the refutation to the idea of lesser and greater sins. That is the Orthodox source that I know of.
Nah, I am not convinced.The formidable church of St Athanisius and other church giants is much more than the one liner verse "the wages of sin is death". I have given you few examples from the Bible that clearly show,there are varying degree of sins.The Orthodox church does not ignore those verses.Moreover,The Lord's reply to Pilate confirms that there are greater and lesser sins.
As Clay pointed out, the method of punishment for transgressed laws in biblical Israel were not all the same. The punishment for kidnapping or rape was death , whereas the punishment for theft was their restoration (check in Exodus).In other words, the punishment fits the crime. So we need to do some research to find out the position of the church, before 'We' reach a conclusion.
On Homosexuality:
God does not tolerate Homosexuality.The Coptic Orthodox church, which is the true body of Christ should not tolerate it either,unless it chooses to emulate the Roman Catholic church or other churchs that have gone bananas:
Genesis 19 describes how God felt about gays of Sodom and Gomorrah:
19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
God did not tolerate them and says:
19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
In Leveticus 18:22-23, God severely condemns a man sleeping with a man. For example ,in Leveticus 20:13, God says:
" If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them".
In Romans 1:26-27,St Paul says:
" For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet".
1Timothy 9-10 says:
"understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
+mahraeel+
hezekial has a pointt...yea iim kind of confused. okay lets say u tell abouna i lied, hes like malesh dont doo it again. if u tell him u hav a boyfriend he looks at u like: what???? so...........its implying one is worse than the other. murder is worse than to lie....
+mahraeel+
Kind of funny because that's exactly what I was just thinking before I read this hehe.
PK
+mahraeel+
+mahraeel+
lol yea please understand im not arguing. lol i just dont get it haha thankss personally thats wat i thught alll my lifee
+mahraeel+
Not at all. I just want to see what the Fathers of the Church have to say, that's all.
I want to see the words of a Church Father on this subject, now that you bring them up.
What's wrong with the tamav Irene example? Although Abu Seifen isn't really a church father, he's still a great saint.
PK
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95109#msg95109 date=1223243292]
I want to see the words of a Church Father on this subject, now that you bring them up.
What's wrong with the tamav Irene example? Although Abu Seifen isn't really a church father, he's still a great saint.
PK
When the term 'Church Father' is said, it means a very specific group of people. Figures such as St. Athanasius, St. Cyril, the Cappadocian Fathers, Origen, and so on.
Not that there is anything wrong with the saints that you mentioned, but I am looking for a Church Father's opinion.
The thing with sexual sin is that it defiles yourself, as well. It is a sin against yourself. I am not syaing that lying does not distort your image of God, but the Bible says "whoever commits sexual sin...also sins against himself".
Yes you may have seen this topic Sprout out before. It needs to be said that the coptic church DOESN'T know squat about Homosexuality has anyone read the book on Homosexuality and the Ordination of women? Better yet I'll just give you this link to a youtube post I found earlier today.
The church's only approach seems to be only condemnation.
A massege from Youtube:
This video has been removed by the user.
I guess the user read our loooooong post right here somehow.....
You said "homosexuality is a grey area". This is very destructive. If we start to say that homosexual practices are "grey" - it's neither bad nor good - its basically "unknown" - we are not living in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit should tell us if something is bad or good.
If you read Isiah, he clearly states "Woe to you who change right from wrong and wrong from right".
Such language; i.e. "its grey" - does not only discourage repentance, but encourages the person to remain in his/her ways even longer. Why then wouldn't someone say to themselves "OK - well the CHurch sees this as a grey area, let remain be gay with complete justification of my condition until it (the Church) decides whether it is wrong or right?".
I take it that the silence that now befalls this thread is proof the not one could find evidence from the Fathers of the Church.
can i ask evidence for what exactly....sorry i wasn't following and i am to lazy to go back and read!!! :D
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95179#msg95179 date=1223406787]
I take it that the silence that now befalls this thread is proof the not one could find evidence from the Fathers of the Church.
can i ask evidence for what exactly....sorry i wasn't following and i am to lazy to go back and read!!! :D
That different sins are worse than others.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95180#msg95180 date=1223408177]
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95179#msg95179 date=1223406787]
I take it that the silence that now befalls this thread is proof the not one could find evidence from the Fathers of the Church.
can i ask evidence for what exactly....sorry i wasn't following and i am to lazy to go back and read!!! :D
That different sins are worse than others.
i thought we agreed on the fact the "the wage of sin is death" in any case. but the effects (consequences) of the sins are what is different, and is what can be considered "worst" then others!!!! right?!
That different sins are worse than others.
the mentality of denying that is something ALL of us do.
we always say that this sin is not as this so we can just ease our ways out of it or of doing. We all are guilty of this, I am first. but that doesn't mean we have to define things to fit our wants!!!
I think you are talking to me,right? Then,you must address me directly,so that PK or any body else does not get confused.Now, I have not quoted any Church father. I said 'The formidable Orthodox church of St Athanisius...' to merely stress the greatness of the Orthodox church and that it has explanation for every biblical verse and does not settle with a single verse to explain away other verses, including the Lord's verse .The Bible is the inspired word of God.Every verse is God's word and the Orthodox church sees it that way. I gave you verses that give me different understanding of the degree of sins.Your replies are no longer than few sentences and you did not even attempt to explain the verses that speak of 'lesser and greater sins', that I mentioned. If you are trying to score a point in any rate,then I am not your guest of honor.However, this is what you wrote:
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95043#msg95043 date=1223081133]
It is of the Orthodox Faith to believe that all sins of equal. To say otherwise would be to go against the Orthodox doctrines that we are to believe.
There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
And then you added: It seems to me that you are arguing with absolute certainty. That means, the onus to prove to us falls squarely on you and not on me;that the Orthodox church does indeed teach as you claim , because you are the one who said 'We use..' Show me that 'We use...', please, so that I am enlightened.
Severus,
I think you are talking to me,right? Then,you must address me directly,so that PK or any body else does not get confused.Now, I have not quoted any Church father. I said 'The formidable Orthodox church of St Athanisius...' to merely stress the greatness of the Orthodox church and that it has explanation for every biblical verse and does not settle with a single verse to explain away other verses, including the Lord's verse .The Bible is the inspired word of God.Every verse is God's word and the Orthodox church sees it that way. I gave you verses that give me different understanding of the degree of sins.Your replies are no longer than few sentences and you did not even attempt to explain the verses that speak of 'lesser and greater sins', that I mentioned. If you are trying to score a point in any rate,then I am not your guest of honor.However, this is what you wrote:
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95043#msg95043 date=1223081133]
It is of the Orthodox Faith to believe that all sins of equal. To say otherwise would be to go against the Orthodox doctrines that we are to believe.
There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
And then you added: It seems to me that you are arguing with absolute certainty. That means, the onus to prove to us falls squarely on you and not on me;that the Orthodox church does indeed teach as you claim , because you are the one who said 'We use..' Show me that 'We use...', please, so that I am enlightened.
what in the world are you 2 arguing about. both your statements are continuation of each other.....do the math.
SIN = DEATH
SIN = many kinds = EVERY SIN
THEN
EVERY SIN = DEATH
therefore ALL SINS are equal in wage....
what in the world are you 2 arguing about. both your statements are continuation of each other.....do the math.
SIN = DEATH
SIN = many kinds = EVERY SIN
THEN
EVERY SIN = DEATH
therefore ALL SINS are equal in wage....
Maths has no place here. If it were so,we would be talking about facts and not faith.If you are willing to explain to me the following verse and other verses I mentioned earlier that clearly speak of 'greater and lesser sins '(even though every sin is rejected by God).Please scroll up to read them and explain them accurately, so that we dont go in circles.For example, what did Jesus mean when he said ' The one who delivered to me has GREATER SIN?As far as I am concerend, the emphasis is on GREAT and if there is Greater sin,then it follows that there are also lesser sins.If my take is wrong, share your views so that I get is right.
What exactly is meant by the following verse? Notice the parts I bolded.
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
I will follow up tomorrow!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95187#msg95187 date=1223417285]
what in the world are you 2 arguing about. both your statements are continuation of each other.....do the math.
SIN = DEATH
SIN = many kinds = EVERY SIN
THEN
EVERY SIN = DEATH
therefore ALL SINS are equal in wage....
Maths has no place here. If it were so,we would be talking about facts and not faith.If you are willing to explain to me the following verse and other verses I mentioned earlier that clearly speak of 'greater and lesser sins '(even though every sin is rejected by God).Please scroll up to read them and explain them accurately, so that we dont go in circles.For example, what did Jesus mean when he said ' The one who delivered to me has GREATER SIN?As far as I am concerend, the emphasis is on GREAT and if there is Greater sin,then it follows that there are also lesser sins.If my take is wrong, share your views so that I get is right.
What exactly is meant by the following verse? Notice the parts I bolded.
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
I will follow up tomorrow!
Since this somehow turned to a crap-match between me and you for 'points' or 'honor', forget it.