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The best sermon of H.G. Bishop Sorial on homouality
[center]
The best sermon I heard of H.G. Bishop Sorial on homouality
His Holiness on October 25 of 2008
In the Church of St. Mark in Jersey City
I know how sensitive the issue, but because the issue has become part of Western life has to pause to know and understand the position of our Church
I wish to know your opinion
To listen to the lecture or for download click here
http://www.4shared.com/file/72293782/bd550b70/homouality_by_h_g_bishop_sorial.html[/center]
Comments
[center]
The best sermon I heard of H.G. Bishop Sorial on homouality
His Holiness on October 25 of 2008
In the Church of St. Mark in Jersey City
I know how sensitive the issue, but because the issue has become part of Western life has to pause to know and understand the position of our Church
I wish to know your opinion
To listen to the lecture or for download click here
http://www.4shared.com/file/72293782/bd550b70/homouality_by_h_g_bishop_sorial.html[/center]
how do u guys get ur hands on this?!!!!
I think he gave a bad image of chrisitianity, I know if I weren't a christian, then I would see him as an extremist calling for hatred and the things is he bases himself upon very extreme examples. I know quite a few homosexuals and believe me none of them are evil people with an evil agenda who rape little boys for fun... Also, I would like to mention, homosexuality and pedophelia is not a new thing, in Ancient Greece, a relationship (sexual or not) between an older man and a younger boy was considered normal and widely accepted by society.
I must admit his actions at the synod where he stood up for the word of God and critized what was going wrong are admirable, although, we've only heard the story from his side.
But as to giving rights to homosexuals, we as christians, cannot force others to believe what we believe, we can only shine and be the light of the world.
So basing himself upon the DOI to say that homosexuals are freaks who shouldn't have rights, is in my opinion outrageous...
I was very displeased to hear this sermon.
Also, when commenting, remember, I completely agree with the teachings of the Bible and I'm not condoning homosexuals, but I'm saying we cannot force others to think the way we think and take away their rights to live as they would wish. Since they're not hurting anyone else, they should be allowed to practice those rights in freedom.
With all due respect to His Grace, I don't agree with how he makes homosexuals seem like monsters and pedophiles. He chose extreme examples to 'scare' people off from them, this is not fair. Firstly all his examples came from the US, and we all know by now that it's a place of extremes in many ways. Secondly, he kept referring to the United Stated declareation of independence as if it is a divine text that all agree with. But not everyone is convinced he gets his rights from God. It's as if HG is calling upon us to hate and avoid and fear homosexuals, instead of loving them and praying for them as our Lord would want.
I think he gave a bad image of chrisitianity, I know if I weren't a christian, then I would see him as an extremist calling for hatred and the things is he bases himself upon very extreme examples. I know quite a few homosexuals and believe me none of them are evil people with an evil agenda who rape little boys for fun... Also, I would like to mention, homosexuality and pedophelia is not a new thing, in Ancient Greece, a relationship (sexual or not) between an older man and a younger boy was considered normal and widely accepted by society.
I must admit his actions at the synod where he stood up for the word of God and critized what was going wrong are admirable, although, we've only heard the story from his side.
But as to giving rights to homosexuals, we as christians, cannot force others to believe what we believe, we can only shine and be the light of the world.
So basing himself upon the DOI to say that homosexuals are freaks who shouldn't have rights, is in my opinion outrageous...
I was very displeased to hear this sermon.
Also, when commenting, remember, I completely agree with the teachings of the Bible and I'm not condoning homosexuals, but I'm saying we cannot force others to think the way we think and take away their rights to live as they would wish. Since they're not hurting anyone else, they should be allowed to practice those rights in freedom.
the reason he uses the "Declaration of Independence of the USA" because until now, the US is STILL the mark of full independence and that where this all started being more famous and where sex became popular. it's "freedom"....a word that just mean nothing with something "being free of"
you like many people now are very confused about the so called injustice that homosexuals face. The fact of the matter is that they face no discrimination under the law, maybe prejudice by people but that cannot be controlled. They can engage in relationships as they want. Have you ever heard of someone going to jail for being gay. So these "rights" you claim they do not have is a complete fallacy. The media has been hitting people with that message that somehow gays are being mistreated and they are trying to link it with racism against blacks, etc. This is complete manipulation. Gays are not being hosed by the cops as we speak or being beaten in the streets and told they cannot go to the same movie theaters and restaurants as other people. The only thing they are being deprived of is marriage. And on the issue of marriage the people of California have spoken. The fact is that marriage is a privilege given by the state. If people want to allow gay marriage they if the majority agrees on it, it will be allowed. But to say gays have a right to get married and it is no one's business then that opens the door for polygamists and family marriages, etc. But if you ask a gay person if a man should be allowed to marry two women they would say no, which is complete hypocrisy. The point is the church is not enforcing it's views on others it is just voicing what God has to say on the issue. So don't criticize the church or the bishops rather take a look at society.
God Bless
I appreciate your concern about me being 'confused', but I wouldn't say I'm confused at all. I don't base my opinion on mere words said by people, but on a personal belief in freedom and equality.
I don't live in the USA, and I'm not viewing the problem strictly from an american perspective... So I really don't care so much for what most Americans think of the matter, to me it's about principles.
Civil rights are given to all civilians, gay people are civilians, hence gay people should get their civil right. It's as simple as that. Marriage is certainly not a privilege, but a right...
But the issue here is not whether gay-marriage should be allowed or not, although I expressed my opinion clearly. The issue is the fact that I disagree with the way HG bishop Sorial portrayed gay people as if they're all evil monsters looking to destroy the world. I am not critizising the church or its teachings, 7asha..
I am however critisizing the way HG spoke as he only used the weirdest and most extreme examples just to proof his point, which is not fair, he didn't show the whole picture. I don't think this is how our church should be portrayed to the world...
The fact that I didn't like HG's way of handeling this issue, has nothing to do with the fact that I believe in gay's right to get married, since they are not hurting anyone or taking away anyone else's rights by doing that... I'd critizise HG's way of speaking (I'm not judging him, but when I see something that I think is wrong, I think I should say it as a member of this church) even if I agreed with his point, because I don't believe that the end justifies the means, I think a man like him especially should speak in wisdom and fairness without exxagerating and portraying people like that and that he shouldn't just do whatever to proof his point...
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
Dear Unworthy 1
I appreciate your concern about me being 'confused', but I wouldn't say I'm confused at all. I don't base my opinion on mere words said by people, but on a personal belief in freedom and equality.
I don't live in the USA, and I'm not viewing the problem strictly from an american perspective... So I really don't care so much for what most Americans think of the matter, to me it's about principles.
Civil rights are given to all civilians, gay people are civilians, hence gay people should get their civil right. It's as simple as that. Marriage is certainly not a privilege, but a right...
But the issue here is not whether gay-marriage should be allowed or not, although I expressed my opinion clearly. The issue is the fact that I disagree with the way HG bishop Sorial portrayed gay people as if they're all evil monsters looking to destroy the world. I am not critizising the church or its teachings, 7asha..
I am however critisizing the way HG spoke as he only used the weirdest and most extreme examples just to proof his point, which is not fair, he didn't show the whole picture. I don't think this is how our church should be portrayed to the world...
The fact that I didn't like HG's way of handeling this issue, has nothing to do with the fact that I believe in gay's right to get married, since they are not hurting anyone or taking away anyone else's rights by doing that... I'd critizise HG's way of speaking (I'm not judging him, but when I see something that I think is wrong, I think I should say it as a member of this church) even if I agreed with his point, because I don't believe that the end justifies the means, I think a man like him especially should speak in wisdom and fairness without exxagerating and portraying people like that and that he shouldn't just do whatever to proof his point...
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
well let me ask you this. how do you define "Civil rights"?
untill you answer. sayedna didn't say anything out of nothing. he actually took another way to look at this. he brought things to our minds that we never thought is there!!
HG might not have said anything wrong (as in a lie or something) in itself, but he wasn't fair and didn't give the whole picture. And he potrayed so many people as monsters based on a minority, this is wrong. The way he talked about homosexuals, is to me, unacceptable, especially since he's a bishop in the Coptic Orthodox Church, which I, the undeserving, am blessd to be part of...
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
I have two daughters and when I heard Bishop Sorial talking about the questions that thay ask in the school
and the questionnaire or a question, especially how it defined the relationship homosexuality unless you test
This thing is very scary
His Holiness may be very tough, but this makes us wary
Civil rights, are as it may seem from the name, rights of civilians, and there shouldn't be any discrimination between those civilians based on sex, religion, social background or status, race, colour, or sexual orientation. Such rights are for example the right to own goods, the right to get married, etc. The most fundamental rights can be found in the Constitution of any country, such as the right to be treated equally by the state, the right for education, etc.
you are right. but when the rights are out of "human nature", then rights are invalid.
Civil rights, are as it may seem from the name, rights of civilians, and there shouldn't be any discrimination between those civilians based on sex, religion, social background or status, race, colour, or sexual orientation. Such rights are for example the right to own goods, the right to get married, etc. The most fundamental rights can be found in the Constitution of any country, such as the right to be treated equally by the state, the right for education, etc.
HG might not have said anything wrong (as in a lie or something) in itself, but he wasn't fair and didn't give the whole picture. And he potrayed so many people as monsters based on a minority, this is wrong. The way he talked about homosexuals, is to me, unacceptable, especially since he's a bishop in the Coptic Orthodox Church, which I, the undeserving, am blessd to be part of...
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
Godislove260, I see the angle you're coming from. But with all due respect you may be a little mistaken…
God's law takes greater precedence over man's potentially flawed law (even though America's founding [beginning] principles were based on God-given Christian laws). “We ought to obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29).
Laws are put in place to prevent a reckless society from occurring; to prevent chaos and to preserve the moral fabric of society. If the reckless get their way, what’s the purpose of laws anymore? That’s why the church is very cautious in giving freedom to anyone who asks…they may not know the potential outcomes or dire consequences of what they’re asking. F.Y.I. consequences may not be immediate; our kids’ kids’ may be the ones that suffer the most from the bad decisions we make now.
Marriage is between ONE definitive man and ONE definitive woman, as you obviously already know. ANYTHING that deviates from this proven formula, which God Himself instituted for us thousands of years ago, simply cannot be considered Marriage.
Just imagine if Muslims started to protest and hold rallies saying "We want to marry four women at once!"…"We want equal rights!" Imagine if polygamists and prostitutes stirred the media and said "We want to practice freely without consequences! Don't discriminate against us!" Imagine the world we would be living in…I hate to say it, but if we don’t get our act together, we may slowly revert back to Noah’s pre-flood wasteland…
Indulge me for a moment...Imagine if Satan was a human. Imagine if he held a rally and said "God is discriminating against me...I want equal rights." Just imagine the world we would be living in if the devil was never constantly suppressed by God...
I agree with you wholly Godislove260. Everyone deserves civil liberties. But we cannot, and I repeat CANNOT, give liberty to sin. Doing that would be definite treason to God Himself for we should be constantly warring against sin, not encouraging it. “You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin” (Hebrews 12:4).
ANY relationship outside the fundamental human institution of marriage cannot be considered a legitimate marriage where two individuals are united in a mysterious and holy union.
We cannot liberally give freedom to everyone who asks. Otherwise murderers, killers, rapists, prostitutes, and every other criminal would be given the liberty to do as he pleases. LAWS are put in place to keep the human race in check; “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions” (Hebrews 1:9).
You have to put yourself in His Grace's shoes...Allowing homosexuals to practice SIN freely is giving the devil another chance to slowly creep and eat away at the already fragile and deteriorating morals of the global society. What's worst is that now you'll be giving them the chance to call it "Marriage," a term God clearly coined for ONE man and ONE woman with the sole purpose of procreation and unification of the family unit.
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered” (Romans 4:7).
“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members” (Romans 7:23).
“You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin” (Hebrews 12:4).
Please forgive me and pray for me,
GodHelpMe
If you believe that the state recognized marriage is a civil right then how come a man cannot marry two women or a brother marry a sister, etc. Why should we allow gays to get married and not these people. Is that not discrimination. Why do we not let them just do what they want, they are not hurting anyone. I have not heard H.G. Bishop Sorial's sermon so I will not comment on how he depicted gay people.
GodHelpme, you keep talking about God and his laws... but that's exactly the problem NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN GOD AND HIS LAWS, we cannot force our opinions upon others.
You have to try to view things from a different perspective, I keep giving the example of Egypt, because it's obviously very close to me, we cannot be hypocrites and demand freedom and equality in our own country, but not grant it to others when they ask.
Discrimination is a terrible thing, once you've tasted it you'll know why I feel so strongly about this. What if in Egypt, they made a law forbidding christianity. In their eyes, christians are kafirs (very bad sinners), and they might make that law to prevent sin as you say... Do you think that's fair, would you agree then???
And about giving rights to a brother to marry his sister, this is illegal, because they ARE hurting someone, their possible children who would most probably have terrible genetic deformaties. And about polygamy, it IS legal in many countries already, based on their religion. But if Amerika, or any other country, claims to have seperation between religion and state then they should not take away someone's right just because they are in the eyes of christianity sinning. As I said before, gay marriage isn't hurting anyone.
The laws of God should be obeyed by us, christians, above everything else, but we CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT force others to do the same.
Please pray for my weakness
God Bless
Unworthy, since this is the core of the discussion, I suggest you do listen to the sermon.
GodHelpme, you keep talking about God and his laws... but that's exactly the problem NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN GOD AND HIS LAWS, we cannot force our opinions upon others.
You have to try to view things from a different perspective, I keep giving the example of Egypt, because it's obviously very close to me, we cannot be hypocrites and demand freedom and equality in our own country, but not grant it to others when they ask.
Discrimination is a terrible thing, once you've tasted it you'll know why I feel so strongly about this. What if in Egypt, they made a law forbidding christianity. In their eyes, christians are kafirs (very bad sinners), and they might make that law to prevent sin as you say... Do you think that's fair, would you agree then???
And about giving rights to a brother to marry his sister, this is illegal, because they ARE hurting someone, their possible children who would most probably have terrible genetic deformaties. And about polygamy, it IS legal in many countries already, based on their religion. But if Amerika, or any other country, claims to have seperation between religion and state then they should not take away someone's right just because they are in the eyes of christianity sinning. As I said before, gay marriage isn't hurting anyone.
The laws of God should be obeyed by us, christians, above everything else, but we CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT force others to do the same.
Please pray for my weakness
God Bless
there is difference between ALL our belief in the Bible and just the general A god's laws. not specificly our God. if it was only our GOd, that wouldn't be good for us as Christians and followers of the BIble, or for others.
can you define for me this phrase that we been saying to respond to the statment "There is probably no god, now stop worrying and enjoy life"
"It's better to live knowing that there is a god - if there isn't - THAN to die not knowing there is a god, and there is."
define it for me, and tell me why is this true?
To start off with, Anba Soriel is not resorting to force in order to impose the moral views of the church on any body.His job is to restate the church's constant teaching and that is what he did in this sermon. We need not forget, that the Orthodox church is a tradtional church that sticks to its traditional teaching, no matter how huge cultural shift the world experiences. As time goes on, moral behaviours that ancients catogorically rejected and renounced are becoming a norm today. For example, Anba Soriel mentions ,that in the 1970's people believed that same sex marriage was a taboo that could not find acceptance in society. Also,to my knowedge, in the 1970's,abortion was hardly known,let alone practiced. Pornography was a illegal and a shameful deed. Such uncouth practices were totally condemned without any reservation. Today,they have become a popular culture. To come back to the issue at hand,HS is now accepted as a normal form of sexuality. Ever since the medical world ruled that HS is no longer a disease,people started throwing their gowns to declare their orientation,preferances and taste.No more hiding in the closet,they proudly began bragging about being gay,lesbian or bi ad nauseum.Now the courts are saying Homosexuals should be allowed to tie the knot. To advance their agenda,they use the majic formula of 'human rights'. But Anba Soriel is asking those who use this term to define it correctly. To those of you out there who think, that gays have the right to do what they wish ,here is an advise from the Bible. In Romans 1 :32, God tells you " Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Anba Soriel referred to the document of the US declaration of independnces for a right reason,-the Almighty is the foundation of that document. The document states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights'. As His Grace said, God alone giveth and taketh the rights of his creatures. The idea of civil rights is meant to galvanize the government to interfer into the lives of the people when basic principles erupt and explode into obvious acts against peace and social order.Outlandish and bizzare social behaviours such as HS is one of them.
Finally, the question that Anba Soriel is asking is that whether we should forbid religious views in order to pave way to destructive practices? The answer is clear, destructive actions should be uprooted and outlawed without ifs and buts.We should not expect our church to encourage the state to grant marriage licences for everyone who requests them citing" human rights". The church is not going to encouarge the state to grant marriage licence for an adult man and a young male child ,grant adoption rights of children who need a mother and a father (that is what comes next ) or to a group of 8 people who want a a group marriage.There is a saying that goes that when marriage becomes anything it becomes nothing.
When the sacred institution of marriage is cheapened, infidelty and adultery is accepted as ordinary, alien sexual expressions are applauded, the long devastating effect is that the youth would become unstable and defiled ,leading to the destruction of the values of tradtional family.
If such repulsive practices are not challenged head on by the church, then I do not know what its role should be.After all,
if the behaviour of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah had been wrong and displeasing to our God ,what makes them right in our today's society? If you think God changes ,check Malachi 3:6.
Our church has the moral obligation to speak out against ungodly behaviour until the coming of our Lord.
Let me explain myself, I give the example of Egypt for a simple reason, I'm not comparing the suffering that some copts go through with whatever gays go through. I'm talking about a prinicipal, when you have religion interfere with state matters, it becomes very difficult for those who don't share your beliefs to live in their country.
We are viewed by some muslims, as we view homosexuals, sinners. However, Egypt is our country as much as it is theirs, and we should get the exact same rights. Even if what we are doing in Egypt, like worshipping Jesus, might seem like a great sin in the eyes of muslims..
Does anyone know what hypocrisy means?
I said in my first post, I admired how HG stood up for our orthodox faith in the synod and declared that what they were doing, considering themselves CHRISTIANS, is completely against the teaching of the Holy Bible.
But HG's sermon wasn't, in my most humble opinion, fair at all. HG wanted to prove a point, but he went through extremes to do so, without giving a complete, well-argumented picture of the situation. In his sermon, he makes homosexuals, all of them, seem like pedophiles and monsters with an 'agenda' to ruin the world. I at least know of some that aren't, and I'm sure there are more. Hence, it is in my view, completely inacceptable that a bishop of the Coptic church would speak about them in that manner, disregarding the truth and the majority and mentioning only the extremes.
I said before, I'm not only talking about gay rights in America, hence it is not of much importance to me in this issue what it says in the declaration of Independence... I'm not arguing what the Americans think, I'm saying, all civilians should have the same rights, as a prinipal...
And again, there is a big difference between homosexuals and pedophiles, as the first are grown-ups who make a certain decision together and the others are hurtful...
Also I would love to add that the sanctity of marriage is not dependent on civil marriage, our christian marriage was sanctified by God Himself as it is a sacrament in our church where God binds a man and a woman together, according to our beliefs.
Civil marriage is a judicial and social thing where you have common goods with eachother, where if one dies, the other has the right to inherit his goods etc. Hence, gay marriage will by no means influence the sanctity of our marriage.
And about pornoghraphy being widely spread, unfortuantely nowadays there is a universal decline in morals. In all countries, religious, atheist, ... everywhere we see a decline in morals. But morals aren't necessary accompanied by religion. What I mean is, there are those who don't have a religion but still uphold certain morals and ideals. Although I must admit that in theory, morals should be upheld better by those who do have a religion as they are under the laws and morals of a divine being, and not just their own conscience.
Finally, I would like to add, brothers and sisters, that it is not my goal to judge, offend or hurt anyone, I say this because I'm aware sometimes my words can be misunderstood...
I'm only a very strong believer in the concept of separation between religion and state and I try not to be hypocritical although sometimes it can be difficult, but as we ask for equal rights so should we be able to grant them also (as long as there is no one who is hurt of course, so no equal rights for murderers as someone previously mentioned..)
God Bless you all
Please pray for my weakness
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97441#msg97441 date=1227272322]
GodHelpme, you keep talking about God and his laws... but that's exactly the problem NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN GOD AND HIS LAWS, we cannot force our opinions upon others.
I agree with you 100%. We can’t force our views on other people. But, what we CAN do is uphold basic human values, like Marriage. Christianity encompasses basic HUMAN views which are established in every human being, Christian or not.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97441#msg97441 date=1227272322]
we cannot be hypocrites and demand freedom and equality in our own country, but not grant it to others when they ask.
Every person has the freedom to live the way he/she chooses UNLESS it interferes with the morals of society. For instance, an executioner wishes to live a life in which he slaughters innocent children for his pleasure. Why is that fundamentally wrong?
1. Because it is against the established and essential morals of society.
2. Because it intrudes on other people’s lifestyles.
It’s the same with gay marriage/homosexuality. Sure…it may have no effects now…maybe even for a few years. But slowly, it will sink into everyone’s mind and this type of sin will affect people’s way of thinking and their lifestyles. Kids in school will not only have to deal with drugs, pre-marital sex, and the host of other adolescent problems, but homosexuality as well. Imagine a kid changing in the locker room in school while having to look over his shoulder, wondering why his male Gym teacher is glaringly staring at him. Why will this happen? Because gay marriage and the gay lifestyle will be accepted.
One thing’s for sure…if we don’t take considerable action now against this so called lifestyle…our kids will be paying the price, trust me…and we’re going to have a splendid time telling our kids why homosexuality is wrong when the media will be saturated with pro-gay antics and the like.
One of the BIGGEST problems we have today with Coptic youth is telling them why pre-marital sex is wrong. Imagine 20 years from now trying to tell your kid why they shouldn’t have intimate relations with their best friend Steve? That’s insane.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97441#msg97441 date=1227272322]
Discrimination is a terrible thing, once you've tasted it you'll know why I feel so strongly about this. What if in Egypt, they made a law forbidding christianity. In their eyes, christians are kafirs (very bad sinners), and they might make that law to prevent sin as you say... Do you think that's fair, would you agree then???
Race and lifestyle are two separate entities. No one chooses their race (or the color of their skin for that matter), which is why everyone should have basic civil rights. Lifestyle on the other hand is a different story. When a lifestyle can be potentially damaging for future generations, as well as possibly damage the structure of basic society, that’s when the habit must not be allowed to run its course. I will say this again, I ENTIRELY agree with you on the issue of discrimination. But damaging lifestyles that affect society CANNOT be tolerated.
Remember…the moral glue that keeps civilizations together is kinda important. Don’t fidget with it. Civilizations depend on it. Morals = Civilized nation (Human).
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97441#msg97441 date=1227272322]
As I said before, gay marriage isn't hurting anyone.
See, that’s the problem. HURT doesn’t have to be physical only. You can indeed hurt or severely damage someone mentally, as you may have already experienced at some point in your life. In many cases, it can actually be more damaging mentally than physically. That’s what the church is afraid of. The mental fallout of this whole scenario. People’s minds will be altered and more inclined to sin than ever. Just because a person doesn’t believe in sin…doesn’t mean it isn’t there… (Remember sin equals physical and spiritual death, whether you are Christian or not).
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97441#msg97441 date=1227272322]
But if Amerika, or any other country, claims to have seperation between religion and state then they should not take away someone's right just because they are in the eyes of christianity sinning.
Separation of church and state was originally intended so that the church can never overpower the government. In other words, it was implemented so that the church can never tax people or so that a priest can never run for office. It was later refined with Lemon v. Kurtzman…which states:
1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
Banning gay marriage qualifies. Preserving the minds of people from immoral decay is not a religious thing…and is actually quite secular. We aren’t promoting religion either. My basic point: Banning gay marriage is a moral and civil duty…as a civilized society…not as a church. This has more to do with basic HUMAN principles, than the church’s opinion.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97441#msg97441 date=1227272322]
The laws of God should be obeyed by us, christians, above everything else, but we CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT force others to do the same.
Like I said before, we’re not forcing our opinions. We are upholding HUMAN beliefs that have existed since the beginning of time itself. If humans can’t uphold human beliefs, than one or two things is wrong:
1. They’re not thinking logically or rationally (consistently thinking of the consequences of their actions)
2. They are selfishly looking after their own self-interests and do not give a care about others or others around them.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97456#msg97456 date=1227351955]
Hence, gay marriage will by no means influence the sanctity of our marriage.
But it will eventually affect the minds of people who do get married…as well as their children.
Think of the youth. Think of what the youth will be growing up with in 20 years. This is not limited to arguing gay marriage alone. This whole topic delves into something bigger: what can and can’t be accepted by society. See this is the first step. It starts with gay marriage; allowing homosexuals to do as they please. Then the gay lifestyle becomes a normal and accepted thing that is likened to a race of people. Then that lifestyle breeds other lifestyles such as gay adoption and a host of other morally-defying habits…“If homosexuals have rights, why can’t I have the right to kill my baby?” “Why can’t I marry my pet dog named Snuffy?” “I truly love my pet monkey...you can’t define love.” You see my point? Don’t help open the door to madness…If madness is God’s will, and if He sees that something good will come out of it in the long run, than it will indeed happen…but don’t help it happen…don’t LET it happen.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97456#msg97456 date=1227351955]
And about pornoghraphy being widely spread, unfortuantely nowadays there is a universal decline in morals. In all countries, religious, atheist, ... everywhere we see a decline in morals.
Then why encourage it? Why go through the trouble? Why dig the grave for a generation of youth in the name of upholding a bad habit in which you do not believe in? Does this make sense? Like you said “there is a universal decline in morals.” Let the immoral have their way and the moral, theirs.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97456#msg97456 date=1227351955]
But morals aren't necessary accompanied by religion. What I mean is, there are those who don't have a religion but still uphold certain morals and ideals. Although I must admit that in theory, morals should be upheld better by those who do have a religion as they are under the laws and morals of a divine being, and not just their own conscience.
Exactly. Basic HUMAN morals. Any human has these fundamental seeds implanted in them by GOD, even if they don’t believe He exists. Which is why banning gay marriage is not such a religious thing; it’s more of a HUMAN thing.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97426#msg97426 date=1227211197]
(as long as there is no one who is hurt of course, so no equal rights for murderers as someone previously mentioned..)
Why not? Don’t they have their fair share of rights? Why can’t they murder as they please? Shouldn’t they be considered equal?
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97426#msg97426 date=1227211197]
Please pray for my weakness
Please pray for mine, for my weakness is much greater.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97426#msg97426 date=1227211197]
the Coptic Orthodox Church, which I, the undeserving, am blessd to be part of...
If indeed you truly consider yourself blessed to be part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the church that has withstood this same exact attack hundreds of hundreds of times in a span of thousands of thousands of years, than I strongly and humbly suggest you reconsider your opinion.
Look, we’re all mistaken sometimes…I am the first. What we can do in the future is learn from our errors…make better judgments when faced with an issue; consider all possible outcomes of the situation. That way, we actually improve ourselves in the long run. Life is about always revising yourself…always examining yourself on a daily basis.
In your life, which takes greater precedence…democratic law or God’s law? There is nothing wrong with defending freedom…it is actually strongly encouraged. God is not against freedom…he gave us FREE will…the freedom to do what we want. But we must ask ourselves this inevitable question:“All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify” (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NKJV)
Another translation: "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive” (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NIV).
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)
Thank you for giving me the honor of responding to your question.
Please forgive me and pray for me,
GodHelpMe
I agree with you 100%. We can’t force our views on other people. But, what we CAN do is uphold basic human values, like Marriage. Christianity encompasses basic HUMAN views which are established in every human being, Christian or not.
Homosexuals think what they're doing is fine as in they don't view it as immoral, do they not qualify as human beings in your eyes???
Imagine a kid changing in the locker room in school while having to look over his shoulder, wondering why his male Gym teacher is glaringly staring at him. Why will this happen? Because gay marriage and the gay lifestyle will be accepted.
Clearly, the bad effects of HG's sermon are already visible...
You are not referring to a homosexual gym teacher, but a pedophile
there is a BIG DIFFERENCE, in contradiction to what HG's sermon makes it seem like, being a homosexual who willingly and freely commits him/herself to a relation with someone of the same sex is NOT the same as being a heartless pedophile who enjoys taking advantage of week children
Also, banning homosexual marriage will BY NO MEANS ban homosexuality
Race and lifestyle are two separate entities. No one chooses their race (or the color of their skin for that matter), which is why everyone should have basic civil rights.
If you would have read my post well, you would have known I wasn't comparing discrimination against homosexuals between discrimination against blacks or something (race). Because you are a christian by choice just as a homosexual is one by choice and even if he was like that by birth. None of the above are reasons to discriminate against homosexuals...neither them choosing to be so (like we choose to be christians) or them being born so (like blacks don't choose to be black)
what's important is that they're civilians who should have the same rights!
See, that’s the problem. HURT doesn’t have to be physical only.
I agree, but as I have stated before, gay marriage will not influence our marriage which is sanctified by the Lord Himself.
But damaging lifestyles that affect society CANNOT be tolerated.
So we should kill everyone in the world and take away their rights and their freedom, for I can assure you homosexuality is not the only 'damaging lifestyle' around.
Let us keep anyone from speaking for their freedom of speech might 'damage' someone, let us keep boys from ever seeing girls, cuz they might have 'damaging' thoughts...
Everything has the potential to be damaging, and we are living in a world where very few are truly righteous.. But we cannot eliminate all those who aren't, or not tolerate them.. what do you suggest we do with them then???
Btw, what's damaging in your eyes, might not be in someone else's...
(Remember sin equals physical and spiritual death, whether you are Christian or not).
Yes, I remember very well, which is why I'm really thankful to be christian, unlike many who don't believe it's a sin and that it can lead to death...
Why can’t they murder as they please?
Again, if you would have read my post well, you would have seen that I said as LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT anyone, now I don't know about you, but I think KILLING qualifies as HURTING someone, as in a breach in their right to live!!!!
Then why encourage it?
I don't encourage homosexual marriage, I encourage freedom!!!
Look, we’re all mistaken sometimes…I am the first.
At last we agree on something, I too see myself as the first to sin! I'm open for discussion, obviously, but I feel very strongly about this issue and I won't change my mind unless I'm faced with substantual arguments, and you haven't answered my question on hypocrisy...
Let me explain myself, I give the example of Egypt for a simple reason, I'm not comparing the suffering that some copts go through with whatever gays go through. I'm talking about a prinicipal, when you have religion interfere with state matters, it becomes very difficult for those who don't share your beliefs to live in their country.
We are viewed by some muslims, as we view homosexuals, sinners. However, Egypt is our country as much as it is theirs, and we should get the exact same rights. Even if what we are doing in Egypt, like worshipping Jesus, might seem like a great sin in the eyes of muslims..
Does anyone know what hypocrisy means?
For muslims, worshipping a mere human being and claiming to eat his flesh and blood ''interferes with the morals of society''...
Please just answer me this
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
+mahraeel+
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
Imagine a kid changing in the locker room in school while having to look over his shoulder, wondering why his male Gym teacher is glaringly staring at him. Why will this happen? Because gay marriage and the gay lifestyle will be accepted.
Clearly, the bad effects of HG's sermon are already visible...
You are not referring to a homosexual gym teacher, but a pedophile
there is a BIG DIFFERENCE, in contradiction to what HG's sermon makes it seem like, being a homosexual who willingly and freely commits him/herself to a relation with someone of the same sex is NOT the same as being a heartless pedophile who enjoys taking advantage of week children
But in a homosexual’s eyes…mostly EVERYTHING is ok! Possibly even looking at a kid in the locker room. If I can marry someone of the same gender…why can’t I have a little fun with a kid who’s a little underage? See, this topic leads to too many variables being freely exercised.
We wouldn’t be having this problem if gay-marriage/homosexuality was outlawed (just like polygamy and prostitution are outlawed). Locker rooms are like rest rooms…Males can’t go into females’ rooms and vice versa. Promoting this sinful lifestyle and the rights they are supposedly entitled to (which you are doing unknowingly) is WRONG and is considered aiding the further progression of a sinful act. Not only that, giving Satan the key, as well as the opportunity to open the door to such unknown sins the human mind can’t even imagine, is also WRONG. You are part of the church right?
Hear me out for a minute. Let me tell you a story that may help in this discussion (take it for what its worth). There was a guy named Curley who broke into someone’s house and beat the owner senseless (fatally) for $50.00. Curley’s friend, Mo, who was with him, was just looking at what his friend was doing to the other person. Curley hit the owner four times in the head with a sledgehammer, but he wasn’t quite dead yet. So Curley asked Mo to finish him off with a fifth and final blow to the head. Mo politely refused. So Curley finished him off. Curley then asked Mo to help him wrap the body in a blanket and carry it to the car. “What’s the risk? I didn’t kill him,” Mo asked himself. So Mo helped him carry the body to the car and helped Curley bury the body as well as wash off the remains from the car. To make a long story short, the police found out. Curley got life in prison without parole for his heinous crime. Mo on the other hand, got 30 years in prison without parole. Why such a heavy punishment for Mo you may ask? He didn’t kill the guy?
1. He didn’t stop the crime from occurring. He didn’t care to notify the police or do anything about it.
2. He AIDED in the crime. Maybe not the murder itself, but in the further progression of it. He helped carry the body, helped bury it, and helped wash down the car from possible incriminating evidence.
You see where I’m going with this. You believe that homosexuality/gay marriage is wrong. Correct? Yet you are continuing to say that you are justified in carrying and burying the body, fighting to give homosexuals the rights to marriage. The bottom line: It’s still a murder scene! And you’re helping with the crime being committed! Not only that, you are aiding a murderer, a thief, and the father of lies all in one! The devil!
If this discussion was a trial with God being the judge, would He charge you with aiding the crime and not doing anything to prevent it?
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
Then why encourage it?
I don't encourage homosexual marriage, I encourage freedom!!!
Too much freedom = pure chaos. Plain and simple. We need to find a balance of freedom. Hence, this is why we are selective with the issue of freedom.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
But damaging lifestyles that affect society CANNOT be tolerated.
So we should kill everyone in the world and take away their rights and their freedom, for I can assure you homosexuality is not the only 'damaging lifestyle' around.
Let us keep anyone from speaking for their freedom of speech might 'damage' someone, let us keep boys from ever seeing girls, cuz they might have 'damaging' thoughts...
Everything has the potential to be damaging, and we are living in a world where very few are truly righteous.. But we cannot eliminate all those who aren't, or not tolerate them.. what do you suggest we do with them then???
Btw, what's damaging in your eyes, might not be in someone else's...
Also, banning homosexual marriage will BY NO MEANS ban homosexuality
BUT we can’t give everyone unbridled, unrestricted, and unlimited freedom! If that were to happen, we would be living in the Un-United States of Chaos! That’s why we Christians are mostly conservative on most issues. Too much freedom = pure chaos. We wouldn’t want that…would we?
We can’t do anything about the already present dangers…what we can do is prevent and strongly oppose those hazards that could potentially pose as a threat to the moral security and soundness of the God-created human individual, in which homosexuality/gay-marriage is and is doing.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
Race and lifestyle are two separate entities. No one chooses their race (or the color of their skin for that matter), which is why everyone should have basic civil rights.
If you would have read my post well, you would have known I wasn't comparing discrimination against homosexuals between discrimination against blacks or something (race). Because you are a christian by choice just as a homosexual is one by choice and even if he was like that by birth. None of the above are reasons to discriminate against homosexuals...neither them choosing to be so (like we choose to be christians) or them being born so (like blacks don't choose to be black)
I agree with you. Discrimination and hate is entirely wrong and unorthodox. I agree with you, His Grace may have used some strong words. But those strong words were meant to show the affects of the sin on the human being. You may have misunderstood a bit. We as a church (which includes you and me) hate the SIN not the sinner. But there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious effects of sin, which is what His Grace was trying to do.
I agree with you though. We CAN do a little better changing the focus from the sinner to the sin.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
Why can’t they murder as they please?
Again, if you would have read my post well, you would have seen that I said as LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT anyone, now I don't know about you, but I think KILLING qualifies as HURTING someone, as in a breach in their right to live!!!!
You already agreed that you can hurt someone mentally on a global scale…Correct? A breach, if you will, on their right to think rationally and humanly (Christianly).
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
(Remember sin equals physical and spiritual death, whether you are Christian or not).
Yes, I remember very well, which is why I'm really thankful to be christian, unlike many who don't believe it's a sin and that it can lead to death...
You agree that it leads to DEATH…that’s something we agree on…Correct? Why in the world would you encourage something that leads to DEATH? Are we the kind of people that encourage DEATH? You probably already know that the church is Pro-Life…correct? (a whole other topic).
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
See, that’s the problem. HURT doesn’t have to be physical only.
I agree, but as I have stated before, gay marriage will not influence our marriage which is sanctified by the Lord Himself.
The essential problem with our discussion seems to be whether homosexuality/gay-marriage is harmful to society…I (as well as the church) say it is, while you say it isn’t. If you think sin is not harmful, than you are indeed justified in your opinion. But, since you are indeed Coptic, and assuming that you ALWAYS take a firm, offensive, stance against sin, you should be on the church’s side on this issue. SIN is SIN. WE do not encourage sin, by any stretch of imagination and in any form possible. Since Christianity is based on fundamental and basic human beliefs, there should be no problem agreeing to this.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
Does anyone know what hypocrisy means?
you haven't answered my question on hypocrisy...
Like I said before, it can’t interfere with basic human principles and values (caring for others, marriage, selflessness, and countless other essential beliefs). The church is not hypocritical if you understand its doctrine correctly. Homosexuals may do whatever they please, EXCEPT marriage. This concept of marriage is something that we can’t as humans redefine. It’s just not in our capacity. The Original Artist is the only one that can make amends to HIS picture.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
I feel very strongly about this issue and I won't change my mind unless I'm faced with substantual arguments
Feeling strongly about something is a very invigorating feeling. But you just can’t defend something that is obviously humanly wrong…Al-Qaeda feels very strongly about what they’re doing…it’s still wrong.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
For muslims, worshipping a mere human being and claiming to eat his flesh and blood ''interferes with the morals of society''...
First off, are you implying that Christ is a mere human being?
Second, if Muslims actually upheld their God-given HUMAN morals, you wouldn’t see the extremists strapping bombs on mentally disabled women or decapitating a busload of American civilians in Iraq. Muslims (extremists) don’t uphold their HUMAN morals; they exchange them with Quranic concepts that are foreign to the natural human being. So yes, they would see intertwining with God in a mysterious and holy way in which no human can ever fathom as something “immoral.”
This goes back to my essential point: the VALUE of upholding HUMAN (Christian) morals! So that what happens in Egypt doesn’t happen here…we must encourage the already-established CORE HUMAN VALUES so that people who are indifferent to basic human concepts don’t end up turning America into something similar to Egypt (Homosexuals).
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7359.msg97465#msg97465 date=1227371180]
I agree with you 100%. We can’t force our views on other people. But, what we CAN do is uphold basic human values, like Marriage. Christianity encompasses basic HUMAN views which are established in every human being, Christian or not.
Homosexuals think what they're doing is fine as in they don't view it as immoral, do they not qualify as human beings in your eyes???
Homosexuals are indeed human believe it or not. But, what they do is that they exchange their HUMAN values with purposely-implemented foreign ideas and thoughts. Just for the record, you said it yourself…Gays are NOT born gay…please confirm this point so that I know we’re at least on the same page.
After reading this forum, the average person would undoubtedly say you are defending homosexuals. But, you say that you are against homosexuality, and that you consider it a sin. I hate to say it, but there seems to be something out of place with your argument. You can’t be for it, when you’re against it. “…What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14). I won’t take it personally if you concede, for you won’t be conceding to me. You will be conceding to the Church, which is immeasurably more honorable to concede to than me.
Why don’t you pray a bit about this topic…Really…ask God whether it is ok to give a sinful lifestyle its due rights…I can guarantee you He will give you an answer…Or maybe…He already did.
By the way, you haven’t answered my question on democracy…
In your life, which takes greater precedence…democratic law or God’s law? There is nothing wrong with defending freedom…it is actually strongly encouraged. God is not against freedom…he gave us FREE will…the freedom to do what we want. But we must ask ourselves this inevitable question: “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify” (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NKJV)
Another translation: "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive” (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NIV).
“Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.”
“…What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?”
“…What communion has light with darkness?”
(2 Corinthians 6:14)
May God continue to bless you, as I see He already has.
Please forgive me and pray for me,
GodHelpMe
Going through all the posts, I thought I'd share something that I came across while searching for Orthodox-friendly material online. Its a sermon by Fr.Jon Braun of the Antiochian Orthodox Church and thought was relevant.
http://www.st-anthony.org/our_faith/audio/sermons/Appeal for Absolute Values.mp3
God bless,
Paulos
But in a homosexual’s eyes…mostly EVERYTHING is ok!
Where did you get that??? Now before you 'accuse' me of supporting homosexuals, I am saying this because unlike HG, I think the whole truth should be told and not just rare extremes.
This statement is completely untrue, most homosexuals don't support anything and do have a set of morals they live by, but in their eyes being homosexual is not immoral.
Also, you keep giving that silly example about the gym teacher, guess what??? you don't have to be a homosexual to be a pedophile!!! There are also perfectly 'moral' men (aka heterosexuals) who seem to find pleasure in raping little kids...
You see where I’m going with this. You believe that homosexuality/gay marriage is wrong. Correct? Yet you are continuing to say that you are justified in carrying and burying the body, fighting to give homosexuals the rights to marriage. The bottom line: It’s still a murder scene! And you’re helping with the crime being committed! Not only that, you are aiding a murderer, a thief, and the father of lies all in one! The devil!
If this discussion was a trial with God being the judge, would He charge you with aiding the crime and not doing anything to prevent it?
Wow, I must say, if anything, you have a very active imagination. Now please you hear me out...
(before you convict me of being part of a murder scene lol)
1. you think it's a sin to have pre-marital sex
2. unless you like the way things go in Saudi-Arabia (where men and women are kept separated most the time) then you don't mind men and women being together in the same room
3. Oh no, the accuser has become the accused! You aid any man and woman in having pre-marital sex because you don't try to completely separate them from eachother
1. you think it's a sin to call God bad names
2. you support freedom of speech (or at least I hope so)
3. Oh no again! Some people might use that freedom to call God bad names, so by you not completely banning freedom of speech you have become a accomplice in the crime, woe to you
As you see in the above examples, your argument is completely flawed.
I said before, I don't support homosexuality, but I do support a free society where they would have the freedom to get married.
Btw it's a CIVIL marriage, it has judicial and economical effects mostly, I don't see why you are making it such a big deal. If they're living together anyway, they might as well enjoy the advantages that civil marriage has to offer.
Too much freedom = pure chaos. Plain and simple. We need to find a balance of freedom. Hence, this is why we are selective with the issue of freedom.
I agree with you on that, too much freedom is chaos, but where we don't agree, is what's too much freedom...
We can’t do anything about the already present dangers…what we can do is prevent and strongly oppose those hazards that could potentially pose as a threat to the moral security and soundness of the God-created human individual, in which homosexuality/gay-marriage is and is doing.
Woah, what hazard is that, as I said before, they would not just be living together but also enjoying the advantages of civil marriage! How will that affect you ? Why can't you live and let live!!!
There are also atheists who claim that christianity is ruining the youth by teaching them to believe in fairytales, so that's why atheists oppose christianity. But they can't have it banned just because they believe that. They have the freedom to be atheists and we have the freedom to be christians.
You already agreed that you can hurt someone mentally on a global scale…Correct? A breach, if you will, on their right to think rationally and humanly (Christianly).
If you compare any country in Europe with America then you would see morals are A LOT higher in Europe. God Bless America where it's legal to own a gun which can lead to terrible consequences (8 year old kid shoots his father and a friend with the gun legally purchased by his father), why don't you fight that instead of fighting gay marriage?
God Bless America, the land of freedom and democracy, the land of Christian morals...
(By the way, I don't hate America or Americans, but I hate pretentiousness and arrogance)
But anyways someone tried to stop same-sex marriage with practically the same argument that you gave. He said : "I too get a civil marriage, but I'm a strict catholic and I wouldn't want the institution (namely civil marriage) to get spoiled by homosexuals using it too..."
You know what court decided??? To disregard such a foolish argument, and I agree with them fully on that... As long as there is no breach on your right to get a civil marriage and a church marriage then you have no right to complain
You agree that it leads to DEATH…that’s something we agree on…Correct? Why in the world would you encourage something that leads to DEATH? Are we the kind of people that encourage DEATH? You probably already know that the church is Pro-Life…correct? (a whole other topic).
PLEASE read my post well, so I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself in the hope that someday you would read it...
I believe homosexuality is a sin and it will lead to death (just as lying, stealing, etc is a sin)
I don't ecourage homosexuality
I do encourage freedom (freedom to believe in whatever you want, and freedom to have the sexual orientation you want/ think you were born with without having the state take your rights away)
Allowing homosexual marriage or not allowing it has nothing to do with the acutal homosexuals who are practising the sin anyway...
And yes, I am aware of the views of our beloved church concerning abortion (but as you said this is a whole different topic)
Let me ask you a question
you think not believing in Jesus will lead to death right??? (I mean I suppose since you say you're a christian, that would be your point of view)
so by the same logic you use, we should ban any other religion (hence not believing in Jesus as God) from existing and ban all people from believing anything else
after all, you do know that our church is pro-life éh??? ;)
Feeling strongly about something is a very invigorating feeling. But you just can’t defend something that is obviously humanly wrong…Al-Qaeda feels very strongly about what they’re doing…it’s still wrong.
You know, it would make things a lot easier for both of us if you read the post...
I don't see freedom as something that is obviously humanly wrong, and I feel really bad that you do have that idea...
Secondly, I said I don't think of myself as infalliable or anything, but I will not change my mind UNLESS I'm presented with substantial arguments that prove me wrong
And, if AlQaeda (wow, you compare me to Al Qaeda already, I'm so honoured (sarcasm)) would just listen, I'm sure many people can present them with substantial arguments that what they're doing is wrong
First off, are you implying that Christ is a mere human being?
Oh dear, ok, I think I mentioned the fact that I was CHRISTIAN more than one time!!!!!
So, no, I'm not implying that Christ is a mere human being, but maybe you might be unaware of the fact that not all humans agree with me on that. Eg: ALL OTHER RELIGIONS IN THE WORLD !!!
end up turning America into something similar to Egypt (Homosexuals)
I would appreciate it if you would stay respectful to my country...the way you say this is as if Egypt is the worse possible country in the world, but there is so much good in Egypt, America can only dream of...
Please don't compare America with Egypt, I'm Egyptian and I take this as a personal offence!!!
Also what are you implying ya3ni?? Egypt doesn't have more homosexuals than anywhere else in the world...
I give the example of Egypt, cuz it's close to my heart, but it applies to many countries, what I'm saying...
I said hypothetically: Imagine if Muslims(not just in Egypt but all muslims all over the world) IN WHOSE EYES (not mine, cuz I'm not a muslim) Jesus is a mere human being, and worshipping Him is a great sin. (Just as we believe homosexuality to be a sin) Imagine now if they, based on their belief (that worshipping Jesus is a sin) took away our right to be christians and all our civil rights?
If you would consider that fair, then the discussion is over
If you would see that as unfair, then you would be a hypocrite, because that's exactly what you would be doing if you took away someone's civil rights based on your belief
I hate to say it, but there seems to be something out of place with your argument. You can’t be for it, when you’re against it.
I'm NOT for gay marriage, I'm for FREEDOM to marry whom you want as this is your CIVIL RIGHT
I won’t take it personally if you concede, for you won’t be conceding to me. You will be conceding to the Church, which is immeasurably more honorable to concede to than me.
Dear brother/sister, the reason I'm not conceding is not that of pride (although I do confess I make myself guilty of this sin quite a lot) but not this time.
The reason I won't yield is simply because I haven't been presented with any substantial arguments to prove me wrong... The minute I am convinced that I'm wrong, I will yield to anyone, church or no church. It's a matter of being fair, which I think is very important and christian also...
By the way, you haven’t answered my question on democracy…
In your life, which takes greater precedence…democratic law or God’s law? There is nothing wrong with defending freedom…it is actually strongly encouraged. God is not against freedom…he gave us FREE will…the freedom to do what we want. But we must ask ourselves this inevitable question: “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify” (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NKJV)
Btw, you still didn't answer my question on hypocrisy, but don't worry I asked you again (see above)
I will answer your question now
IN MY PERSONAL LIFE, I hold God's law above anything else (Yanbaghi an yota3 Allah akthar men al nas) God should be obeyed more than humans.
So even if homosexual marriage is allowed, I would hold God's law higher and marry someone from the opposite sex, and I would be glad that I would have the right to do that thus I can't be a hypocrite and take someone else's right away...
But I DON'T FORCE ANYONE ELSE to hold His law above anything else...
May God continue to bless you, as I see He already has.
I don't know what you mean by this exactly, it sounds a bit sarcastic to me since you had just accused me of being a accomplice of the Devil above, so I doubt you think God blessed me...
Anyways, I can only ask you one thing: Pray for my weakness
God bless you
God has given everyone a free will to chose how to live their life but as Christians we should not approve of lifestyles that are displeasing to God. We should not support something that is clearly wrong, just because its their "right" or "freedom".
The quran makes its views on christianity and worshipping human being very clear
Hence, in muslim countries, christians should not be allowed to exist or to have any civil rights, just because it's their ''right'' or ''freedom"
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I see where you are coming from and the points you are trying to make. It is always a good quality to try to view things from different perspectives, it make us less judgemental and more understanding. But we must always ask ourselves what does God have to say about this or that issue. We must use the Bible to guide us. It's a great and rare quality to be tolerant and open minded but we must wisely chose what things we support and it must always align with Gods teachings.
I try to be as openminded as possible
But you and I who uphold God's law above everything, don't have to marry someone from the same gender and would thus not be breaking any divine laws...
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In our view, marriage is the unity of two people through the grace of the Holy Spirit, its a holy thing, a mystery, something divine. Not simply a contract between two people, deciding to live under one roof. So basically, civil marriage in the church view is not valid as a marriage in the first place. Two christian people living together as being married, while only having a civil marriage are considered unmarried by the church, and therefore in a state of sin right?
In that case, does it matter who is joined in this civil marriage? Whether its a male and female, two males, two jellyfish even? It's all not considered a lawfull marriage anyway!!!!!! For that reason, i think debating this whole issue is not relevant. Here in my country by democratic laws, the majority of the people approved of same sex marriage...what do we do? Go yell in front of the parlement and say all these people will go to hell? I don't think that's the way a democracy works. I can disagree with the majority, but i live in peace with those who think otherwise. The majority of the people here don't believe in God, but as we live in a democracy i'm granted the right to worship as i like, to believe in God, to believe that same sex marriage is wrong, but I cannot force this upon anyone.
In that sense i agree with godislove on most of what she said, its too long to mention all the seperate points, so i'll just the post nice and short ;)
Civil rights, are as it may seem from the name, rights of civilians, and there shouldn't be any discrimination between those civilians based on sex, religion, social background or status, race, colour, or sexual orientation. Such rights are for example the right to own goods, the right to get married, etc. The most fundamental rights can be found in the Constitution of any country, such as the right to be treated equally by the state, the right for education, etc.
HG might not have said anything wrong (as in a lie or something) in itself, but he wasn't fair and didn't give the whole picture. And he potrayed so many people as monsters based on a minority, this is wrong. The way he talked about homosexuals, is to me, unacceptable, especially since he's a bishop in the Coptic Orthodox Church, which I, the undeserving, am blessd to be part of...
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Hello Godislove,
I read always your comments, and I respect deeply your opinions, not only because they are presented with clarity of thought but with a certain spirit of humility.
Now, I have listened to the entire sermon. H.G Bishop Sorial in no way depicts homosexuals as monsters. I can assure you. Not at all. I'm surprised you have taken his sermon this way.
When listening to the sermon of H.G, one has to see the full picture: H.G starts his sermon based on a problem he wishes to address: That problem is the war against God's word, as clearly described by his quote of St. Anthony who says "The madman will one day call the sane "mad" for not thinking like him".
He is addressing the problem that not only homosexuality is growing, but it's proponents are questioning the validity of heterosexuality. This in turn gives rise to another problem: the education of our youth. They are now being taught that you do not know you are gay unless "you've tried it".
H.G. is addressing this as a true father: the care for saving his children seems paramount than saving face. I have profound admiration him for this, and let me tell u, I'm no fan of any australian bishop.
In this light, H.G was talking about the matters that concern the Church in this war with sexual immorality.
NAMBLA - does exist. They advocate sexual relations between men and boys. With all these associations being given a platform in high society to spurt out their venom, what is our Church doing??
When the Anglican Church itself not only supports homosexual activity, but starts on a destructive path to ordain homosexuals, then what position does that leave the Coptic Church??
If you listen carefully to H.G., there is something very special about how he phrases his words. There is a deep concern in his rhetoric and sermon about the safety of his youth. This is quite serious.
I think if we hold onto the ideals that we only show love to the sinner - we fall unwittingly to the traps of satan that through our ideals, we have created the monster that will attack us. How can we show love towards homosexuals??
This is your question???
The answer is simple. How did God show us love? How do your parents show you love?? They correct you. They tell u off. God's punishment of immorality from the times of the OT was Him "telling us off".
Proof? Didn't God give us His Commandments?? Weren't they engraved in stone? When Christ came and said "If you love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".
Now, some parents correct their kids in a way that literally destroys their children - this is extreme. Correcting has to be done with edifying the person, not destroying them. The father figure is there to put limits on what kids do/cannot do.
Those that do not care the LEAST about your kids will be quiete and never say a word to correct them.
Godislove, correction can be done with humility also. not with sarcasm, nor mockery.
The issue, as H.G. mentioned, is not something that will just go away. Its here to stay. And we have to deal with it.
The only issue I may disagree with him about is that I believe God created us as "sexual beings". Our sexuality is holy and is part of being. For example: I don't think one can disassociate his/her personality from their sexuality. Our sexuality is God given.
H.G Bishop Sorial perhaps sees our human nature beyond sexuality (i.e. beyond sexual desire) - which in that case, I totally agree with also, as we are far more than just sexual urges.
In summary, I do not see H.G's sermon on homosexuality, in anyway, demonizing homosexuals. Not at all. He is simply stating that we are at war with an ideology that is rooted in the false premise that it is a human right to be homosexual.
First, it wasn't a right - it was a condition.
Spongebob is a cartoon character that appears on TV. Any kid from the age of 0 to 10 years of age will have a homosexual cartoon character to help them identify with homosexuals.
Stating the truth is by no means a sign of failure that we are not showing Christian love.
I dont know how things are organised in the states, but where I live (and in belgium, my neigbour country ;)), civil marriage doesnt mean anything close to our sacramental marriage. Civil marriage is some kind of contract that gives two people who share a living some legal advantages, and they are registered as living together etc.
In our view, marriage is the unity of two people through the grace of the Holy Spirit, its a holy thing, a mystery, something divine. Not simply a contract between two people, deciding to live under one roof. So basically, civil marriage in the church view is not valid as a marriage in the first place. Two christian people living together as being married, while only having a civil marriage are considered unmarried by the church, and therefore in a state of sin right?
In that case, does it matter who is joined in this civil marriage? Whether its a male and female, two males, two jellyfish even? It's all not considered a lawfull marriage anyway!!!!!! For that reason, i think debating this whole issue is not relevant. Here in my country by democratic laws, the majority of the people approved of same sex marriage...what do we do? Go yell in front of the parlement and say all these people will go to hell? I don't think that's the way a democracy works. I can disagree with the majority, but i live in peace with those who think otherwise. The majority of the people here don't believe in God, but as we live in a democracy i'm granted the right to worship as i like, to believe in God, to believe that same sex marriage is wrong, but I cannot force this upon anyone.
In that sense i agree with godislove on most of what she said, its too long to mention all the seperate points, so i'll just the post nice and short ;)
Wow, thank you, although I LOVE discussions and don't mind argumenting on something I believe in, I'm so glad to agree with someone on something for once! ;D
Indeed you basically summarized most my points in your short post, well done, I still have a long (get it? LOOOONG way to go to learn to say what I want in less words lol)
Long live people who live in neighbouring West-European countries !!!
God Bless
Please pray for me