There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your lives

edited October 2008 in Faith Issues
This statement is going on a lot of London Buses as part of an Evangelisation effort by aetheists to make people stop and think that God does not exist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7681914.stm

What is one slogan a Christian can write to make others be aware that God does exist?

I'm worried as those who are mocking our faith and enticing others into "enjoyment of life" with no rules have a much louder voice.


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Comments

  • I would be pulling out my trusty sharpie and write.


    "Probably? What if there is a God? "
  • Here is the statement:

    "There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life"


    How does believing in God stop you from enjoying your life??


  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7244.msg96066#msg96066 date=1224608355]
    Here is the statement:

    "There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life"


    How does believing in God stop you from enjoying your life??





    Their interpretation of 'enjoyment' is carnal sin, unfortunately  :-[
  • I've read statements like these in ROME! the capital of catholicism
  • [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7244.msg96068#msg96068 date=1224616317]
    I've read statements like these in ROME! the capital of catholicism



    I think that tasbeha.org should put an advert on the side of metro trains with: "Yeah, OK, but what IF God does exist".

    I don't know, but Im just astonished at why atheists are working so hard to evangelise that God doesn't exist?? Why? As Christians, do we evangelise that God exists?

    Why don't atheists believe in God?? What is their problem?
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7244.msg96069#msg96069 date=1224617129]
    I don't know, but Im just astonished at why atheists are working so hard to evangelise that God doesn't exist?? Why? As Christians, do we evangelise that God exists?

    Why don't atheists believe in God?? What is their problem?


    well simply is that because that's their religion. religion is belief, and that's what there belief is.

    the main reason that i consider for anyone to not believe there is a "GOD" is that to not be LIMITED by that God....not knowing that HE is the Creator and the Almighty and there is no escape from HIM. personally, i think atheists are just very unintelligent human beings (meaning another word i can't say here).
    they keep arguing with a weak-faith person to prove that there is no God, using all kind of meaningless scientific words and concept not knowing that the more the consider the world, the earth and what's in it, the more evidence they bring to the table that there is A FULL ALMIGHTY source who did and who is managing all of this.
    and sooner or latter you keep arguing with them and then just prove that what they believe is also "just a religion" as you do, just based on their own thoughts.....not being in the realm of being limited by anyone.

    As to the sign of "NO GOD" in London.....not surprising.....we know all Europe is turning into Babylon anyway.....
  • This reminds me of a conversation a believer and an atheist had(idk if its true or not but its very practical). The atheist was saying don't you think its going to be pathetic if you die and found out you lived you're life the way you did for nothing. The believer said, I would rather live my life the way I do and find out there is not God, then to live life the way you do and find out there is a God.
  • i know this isn't the place or the mood for it, but i got an e-mail naed Athiest in the woods, so i will put it on here... pleaze no body critisize me for it.... it is somewhat humerous...


    Atheist in the Woods.....
    >
    > An atheist was walking through the woods.
    > 'What majestic trees'!
    > 'What powerful rivers'!
    > 'What beautiful animals'!
    > He said to himself.
    >
    > As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes
    > behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards
    > him.
    >
    > He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw
    > that the bear was closing in on him.
    >
    > He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer. He tripped &
    > fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear
    > was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his
    > right paw to strike him.
    >
    > At that instant the Atheist cried out, 'Oh my God!'
    >
    > Time Stopped.
    > The bear froze.
    > The forest was silent.
    >
    > As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. 'You
    > deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even
    > credit creation to cosmic accident.' 'Do you expect me to help you out of
    > this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer'?
    >
    > The atheist looked directly into the light, 'It would be hypocritical of me
    > to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could
    > make the BEAR a Christian'?
    >
    > 'Very Well,' said the voice.
    >
    > The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped
    > his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:
    >
    > 'Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through
    > Christ our Lord, Amen.'
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7244.msg96096#msg96096 date=1224626539]
    This reminds me of a conversation a believer and an atheist had(idk if its true or not but its very practical). The atheist was saying don't you think its going to be pathetic if you die and found out you lived you're life the way you did for nothing. The believer said, I would rather live my life the way I do and find out there is not God, then to live life the way you do and find out there is a God.



    You see JY, that's why I wanted to open this discussion: to help us know how to answer atheists. Here, you are totally wrong.

    Atheists regard themselves are "humanists" - people that do charitable deeds and good deeds out of the goodness of their heart. THey propose and claim that someone doesn't have to be a Christian or religious person (i.e. believe in a "GOD") to do good deeds nor to behave morally. Some atheists may be against prostitution. But they don't believe in God.

    How can we answer them?

    How can we tell them that God does exist?

    We say in the mass "We preach your death O Lord, and Your Holy Resurrection, we acknowledge".

    We have a duty to preach this.
  • I witnessed and participated in the conversion, through God's Grace, of an atheist once. That person is now baptised and evangelising CHristianity.

    How did it happen?

    Someone who didnt believe or was educated about God since their childhood:

    Well, to cut a long story short, what is ONE thing that as Christians we believe in:


    "I am the Vine, and my Father is the Vine dresser"  - This is the words of Our Lord.

    But now check this out:

    ".... to abide in Me, and Me in you - obey My commandments".

    So, since the beginning of time, since Genesis and all through Exodus, God has given us Commandments. What to do and what not to do. Atheists differ from us with respect to a few of these commandments. What makes them believe in God afterwards is soooooooooo simple:

    That if you believe in God or not, these Commandments protect you. THey are there for your benefit, and for your well being. Whether you love God or not, His Commandments are for your personal interest.

    And this particular person could see that. Society was telling them "DO as you wish". THen they realised that doing "as they wished" in all honesty, and living a life that was typical to so many young people today, they came to realise that the ONLY Person who cared enough about their well being was Christ who told them not to harm themselves through obedience of His Commandments.

    Atheists perhaps can be accused of some ignorance concerning Christianity. They think its just a bunch of laws we have adhere to in order to appease a God, who is a blood thirsty God at that, who cannot sleep at night unless He gets His pound of flesh. They have painted a picture of God as this: someone insecure who needs to be obeyed. WHo needed a sacrifice to be appeased, as He couldn't forgive unless a sacrifice was paid.

    To some extent, with incorrect theology flowing around and people unable to explain why Christ came to save us, atheists can be forgiven for thinking this. They definately do not see that His Commandments are for our benefit. That we are called to live life in His Image and this is the purpose of life: to be in His Image. What they see instead is what their eyes have shown them:

    * Fanatical Christian groups bible bashing people into a way of life that they themselves do not understand
    * Fanatical muslim groups blowing people up (and themselves) in the name of their God.

    They've used our weaknesses against us to say :"Look, if they are christians and are like this, then please God, stay far from me.VERY FAR!!".

    A lot of them have lost respect for Islam and they don't consider this a religion anymore; but with respect to Christianity, this is what has made them begin to hate God.

    If you tell someone "Christ came because the punishment is proportional to the status of the offended party, and God being eternal therefore required an eternal sacrifice" - this is what pushes them away from God. Just read any book from R. Dawkins. He's used incorrect theology to attack us.

    We've discussed this now in the atonement section. Divine Justice was required but was not the sole reason for CHrist to come and die for us. It was a by-product of our Salvation that Justice was served. There's no other way to put this.

    This is their claim against Christians, and the existence of Christ: What kind of God do you want us to worship?? One that cannot forgive and requires His Only Son to die in order for Him to satisfy His Justice?? Then they say "God, if that's really You.. pLEASE STAY AWAY FROM ME".

    But this is why I raised the topic of atonement - is  because it affects us and atheists. The Catholic Church preach that God had to come to repay the Divine Justice. As Coptic Christians, as any Orthodox Christians, we believe that man chose the path of death and corruption, and out of the goodness of His Will, God came to save us: To return us back to life - to redeem us back to life and back to Him. Not because we deserved it, but because He is Good.

    You see how the topics I raised were important. Now we have busses we anti-Christian slogans - promoting atheism. And what do we have to answer them???

    We turn to these atheists and tell them: "The punishment is proportional to the status of the person being offended".

    Rather than preach God's death and resurrection, we've pushed people away from God by preaching something that does not reflect God's character. Divine Justice was achieved as a by-product of salvation. Justice was achieved. This is equilibrium. But to have a God that cannot forgive unless He has blood, how do you expect someone to behave after hearing this?? Does this type of comment encourage you to know God?

    We are dead in sin, and Christ came to sanctify us and to renew life in us. This life is what we celebrate and His love for us and His humility in taking the form of a man to die for us, shedding His Blood and allowing us to become justified by His Blood so that the Holy Spirit can abide in us is what we should be preaching. But instead, we focus more Justice.

    Anyway, these are my thoughts, and I prefer to address the topic directly  & honestly so that we can become a strong community able to respond to atheism and other attacks on our faith more efficiently.


    Look at the following conversation:

    --> Atheist:  ---> Why did Christ come to die for us?

    --> Christian ---> He came to die to repay back the Divine Justice as the punishment is proportional to the status of the person being offended.

    --> Atheist ---> WHy couldn't He just forgive??

    --> Christian --> You've offended the Eternal God, and so now an Eternal punishment is required.

    --> Atheist --> I still don't understand at why He couldn't forgive, and why He insisted on someone dying to appease His justice?

    --> Christian -- > Because you've offended God!!!!!

    ---> Atheist ---> Is HE THAT Weak and insecure to require and INSIST on someone dying just to appease His justice?

    What can we answer?? Is this the right way we should be addressing such questions??? Using anselm?? Does this encourage people to know God??

    I do not want to talk about atonement here - we've been through this, I want to talk about how you answer atheists who use our explanation of atonement to tell us we are worshipping a God who is insecure and requires a pound of flesh to forgive us our sins. Unless He gets His blood, He CANNOT forgive us.

    This is the current picture we've painted. ANd frankly, we will be judged on that!!!!
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=7244.msg96093#msg96093 date=1224626417]
    personally, i think atheists are just very unintelligent human beings (meaning another word i can't say here).


    Were it so easy...no unfortunately that just ain't true. Many athiests are VERY intelligent human beings but they lack the will or the desire to see the truth.

    " There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your lives "

    Well, one way to refute that quickly and simply is to bring people's attentions to the fact that its actually very hard to enjoy a life without God...
    The world sucks, we can all say with 100% confidence that no-one can find any fulfilment anywhere on this Earth except from God, who is not from this Earth. Can anybody see where I'm going with that? But how do you say that succinctly...hmmm?
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7244.msg96137#msg96137 date=1224650341]
    Atheists regard themselves are "humanists" - people that do charitable deeds and good deeds out of the goodness of their heart. THey propose and claim that someone doesn't have to be a Christian or religious person (i.e. believe in a "GOD") to do good deeds nor to behave morally. Some atheists may be against prostitution. But they don't believe in God.


    The idea of 'humanism' without God is actually just plain hypocrisy. If there is no God, there are no objective moral absolutes. There is no such thing as good or evil because it all depends on your opinion. According to athiests, the Holocaust was only evil by our standards, but to the German soldiers, it was good. Most won't admit this but its the logical conclusion of their belief system - then again others openly admit that, which is even more disturbing.

    And just as food for though, My Dad is writing an anti-atheism book as a sort of response to The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and he told me another really interesting thing: if there is no metaphysical existence (the spiritual world i.e. angels, demons, our spirits and God Himself etc.) then free will is just an illusion. Because, of we do not have souls, then the only thing that 'operates' our body is our brains yeah? But our brains are nothing more than really complicated computers. The thing about computers is, 2 + 2 must always equal 4. So that means that all our choices in life are not choices, but calculations! The thing is though, we at the very least have the ILLUSION of free will right, but if we have no souls, who is recieving the illusion?It doesn't make sense!!!

    PRay for me!
  • WOW WOW!!! thats really an amazing and intelligent way of looking into it!!! well done epchois_nai_nan... i definitely agree...
  •                                           +++
    Hello dear friends,

    Let me share this article with you.

                            The Existence of God 
    Objective:
    Confirm the Existence of God, by natural proofs
    Reference:
    Holy Bible,
    Fr. Mikhail Mina,
    “Study of Divinity”

                              God is the Creator

          A. Look around at all the creation

      1. Do you think it is all done without a creator?

      2. Ask the creatures and they will tell you!

    "But now ask the beasts, and they will teach you; and the birds of the air, and they will tell you; Or speak to the earth, and it will teach you; and the fish of the sea will explain to you.  Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this, In whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind?  (Job 12:7-10)
      3. We will see the existence of God from 4 points:

        a) The Order of the Universe
        b) Consciousness and the state of being
        c) Human Instinct of “Religion”
        d) History and the Bible

                              The Order of the Universe

        A. This great universe – does it have a creator?

    1. Logically: every creation has a creator

    2. This Creator is well-organized

    3. It is No coincidence!

      a) Law of Entropy: Everything goes toward a state of chaos (less energy)

                  (1)    Evolution can never be accepted scientifically – it defied entropy
                  (2)    If Evolution is true, why haven’t humans evolved?
                  (3)    As things age, they deteriorate: buildings, plants, animals
                  (4)    Experiment: drop ten pieces of paper, and see if they fall “in order”

      (a) If this simple task cannot be done “coincidentally”, how can the universe be created “coincidentally”?

              B. The Human Body

                  1. Who “engineered” it?  How does all the organs work together?
                  2. We know every chemical that makes up the body, but can be “build” a human?

              C. The Skin: a simple organ

          How many receptors and nerve endings, and layers and sub-layers, etc.

              D. The Brain or Heart - Who “engineered” them?

              E. Air:
                    1. Oxygen (flammable) and Nitrogen (anti-flammable)
                    2. Is it coincidental or is there a “God”?

              F. Heavenly bodies: Sun

            1. It can burn the whole earth, and it can freeze it, but it does neither!

              G. Cycles:
                      1. Night and Day
                      2. Four Seasons

              H. Animals, plants, humans, etc.

                                I. Biblical references:

                  1. “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse”  (Rom 1:20)
                2. “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork.” (Psa 19:1)

                        Consciousness and the state of being

          A. “God has created in the heart of man a court. He appointed the mind as a judge, the conscience as a plaintiff, and the thought as a witness.  With His precious fingers, He wrote on the pages of the heart: His existence, Oneness, Eternity, and His creation of the world.” (St. Augustine)
          B. Proof of a “good” God: The internal war between good and evil

          1.Pride and happiness for doing good
          2. Guilt and sadness for doing bad
          3. Even atheist, can not deny these internal feelings
          4. They may deny God, but their conscience will not

          C. Many times, people may be in a position to benefit by abusing someone else

        1. Even if they will not get caught
        2. They refrain, because their conscience “bothers” them
        3. Proof that there is a God who punishes the evil and will avenge the oppressed

          D. It is mentioned that the most atheists dreaded the moment of death so much, feeling the punishment of the “God” they denied who is just and will judge them rightly

          1. Many confessed on their death bed
          2. Ex: King Antiochus (Maccabies): could not remember any of his victories on his deathbed – just his sins.

          E. Humans know right from wrong without being instructed

        1. Ex: children – Even if you try to confuse them, they will not accept it
        2. “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)”  (Rom 2:14-15)

                  Human Instinct of “Religion”

            A.    Everyone agrees that there is a “god”
      1. Some people worship "idols"
      2. Some worship other creatures (animals, insects, etc.)
      3. Some worship mammon
      4. Some worship the True God

      B. God placed this instinct in man to help him recognize His existence
      C. This has been an un-broken chain of faith since the beginning of time, until now
                D. It cannot be a big lie!

                                History and the Bible

              A.The Bible is full of prophecies that came true and are proven and recorded in history
              B. They can not be just coincidence, but rather a strong proof about God’s existence

              C. Prophecy against Babylon (Isa 13:19-22)

    1.      This prophecy was uttered when Babylon was in its full glory and no one would have believed it
    2. But now, if you visit Babylon, You will see that it is deserted, destroyed, burned and desolate.
    3. It is home for the wild animals.
    4. Even the Arabians have deserted it

            D. Prophecy against Nineveh (Zep 2:13-15)

                    1. When this prophecy was uttered, it was described as:
      a) The height of its walls is 100 feet
      b) It was protected by 150 citadel, each which is 100 feet high
                    2. Now, Nineveh is a barren land

            E. Scientific proofs:

              1.Earth is round: Isa 40:22
              2.Job 38 – full of scientific data still not understood until now


  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7244.msg96137#msg96137 date=1224650341]
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7244.msg96096#msg96096 date=1224626539]
    This reminds me of a conversation a believer and an atheist had(idk if its true or not but its very practical). The atheist was saying don't you think its going to be pathetic if you die and found out you lived you're life the way you did for nothing. The believer said, I would rather live my life the way I do and find out there is not God, then to live life the way you do and find out there is a God.



    You see JY, that's why I wanted to open this discussion: to help us know how to answer atheists. Here, you are totally wrong.

    Atheists regard themselves are "humanists" - people that do charitable deeds and good deeds out of the goodness of their heart. THey propose and claim that someone doesn't have to be a Christian or religious person (i.e. believe in a "GOD") to do good deeds nor to behave morally. Some atheists may be against prostitution. But they don't believe in God.

    How can we answer them?

    How can we tell them that God does exist?

    We say in the mass "We preach your death O Lord, and Your Holy Resurrection, we acknowledge".

    We have a duty to preach this.


    Oh yeah, i completely agree with you, that was just a story I heard and I thought that it was very practical to say to a stubborn athiest(not one who is actually willing to learn but one who is out to disprove you). The fact is, if they aren't willing to learn, then why waste our breath? I know this mentality isn't the best but I have yet to come across an athiest who was geniunely willing to learn and not just prove me wrong. The objective to them, isn't to find the truth out, its to cause others to stray and prove that God does not exist. I think it is our duty as well to preach, but through actions not words. I would say we only get into discussions with those who want to learn and thats it. Everyone knows about Christianity now, so we don't need to do as the apostles did and spread the Word around the world. We just need to be beacons and hopefully through our actions people will see us as "different" than others and from then they will possibly be interested to really learn.
  • I was talking to an athiest friend yesterday.... I convinced Him to start reading the Bible (starting with the Gospel of Saint Mark) and we talked on MSN for around an hour... when i asked him what he would tell GOD when he dies, he told me he would tell GOD that there was no real PHYSICAL proof that you exist.....  my simplest answer was: LOOK AROUND YOU... nature, humans, existance, and the complections of the human body and its function and all that, and he just replied and said it could be ALL explained by sciences....    what can i tell him to make him believe that God really exists? I told him thats where faith comes in, but he didn't accept that..... help please?
  • What is the purpose of life for atheists? How do they see it?

    We are born with a body that is so complicated, so brilliantly designed, for what purpose? What do they see the purpose as? To just have sex? To live in pleasure? Do you or they even, honestly feel that we were given this body only to have pleasure?

    What to them is the purpose of life?

    If they base their theories of creation on science, then scientifically - there is a reason and explanation for everything; and this reason can be tested.

    If this life was created to only live for pleasure and for one's ego, let them test this. I welcome such tests as it is through such experiences that one really does discover God. In Christianity, our purpose is to become Godly; to become united with God. Its beyond pleasure and the ego, and self-satisfaction. The perfectly designed body is for a perfect God who uses our body as His Temple, as His Dwelling Place.

    To them, as they do not see God, all this is just nonsense. But I believe that it is totally UNSCIENTIFIC, and unprofessionally scientific to assume that God does not exist because you cannot see Him. We are discussing matters of the Spiritual Nature. All this is spiritual. For them to experience God, to test God's existence, they must enter or engage themselves in spirituality by sincere prayer and supplication to ask God to reveal Himself to them.

    I can only suggest that we use the story of St. Moses the Black as an example for ourselves and for them. With all sincerity, he prayed earnestly and wanted to seek out where God is. What was his driving force behind doing this??

    Despite being raised as not knowing God, he came to the conclusion that there had to be more to life than sex and fullfilling one's every human desire. If life was about fulfilling your desires, why then did he feel so "empty" ?  Why then did he feel so "incomplete"; a bit like the prodigal son, after eating "pods". Pods are basically hard round crusts that you give to pigs. They contain absolutely no nutritional value in them (i.e.there are 0 calaroies). You give it to pigs so you fill their stomachs in order that they don't go off and eat something else. But no matter how much you feed them with Pods, they are still hungry.

    I think Christ is telling us that this is how the human being is: that we are searching for something to fill us, yet we were not created for pods, but for the heavenly manna that nourishes our body and souls and fills us.

    If atheism is correct, then the purpose of life would be to "stop worrying and enjoy your life" - this is the purpose of most atheists. To "enjoy life". The difference between joy and enjoy is quite serious. Enjoy is limited. it only lasts for a small period of time. Like the pod. You eat it, and you are satisfied. Then you have to keep on enjoying yourself.

    But "Joy" on the other hand is beyond this. It is a gift of being with God, as being close to God is Joy. We were created to be "Joyful". They wouldn't experience this if they didn't see how limited their way of thinking is.



  • Well, quite simply, your friend is wrong. It cannot be explained by sciences. It is a FACT that modern science is still completely oblivious as the origin of life which leaves a gaping hole in the theory of evolution. The whole evolution situation is like this: one day a person found a beautiful picture in the middle of the desert. At first everyone wondered where it came from, but one day, they found a bottle of paint in the area of where the painting was found. Everyone said 'HAH! That explains it, they used PAINT!" And now they think they know it all. It doesn't explain who painted the picture or who made the paint or who put it there. It is less than half the story and even evolution has some holes in it! If you want to convince him of this, here are some quotes from scientists in the field NOW, who are not Christians but actually prominent athiests:

    "More than thirty years of experimentation on the origin of life in the fields of chemical and molecular evolution have led to a better perception of the immensity of the problem of the origin of life on Earth, rather than to its solution. At present, all discussions on the principle theories and experiments in the field either end in stalemate or in a confession of ignorance."
    Klaus Dose, famous bio-chemist

    "Every time I write a paper  on the origin of life, I swear I will never write another one because there is too much speculation running after too few facts." --Francis Crick, (the man who discovered DNA)

    He currently believes that life originated in outer space and was engineered by aliens, which many scientists think is insane! He admits that life is too complex to have developed on Earth completely by chance. When you have men this intelligent thinking up stuff this crazy, you know that this is definitely a big problem!

    PS: I'm getting this from a book called 'The Case for Faith' by Lee Strobel (the same person who wrote the 'Case For Christ' ) which is full of info like this. Its a book that examines in depth the greatest objections to Christianity and explains why they do not have any weight. ONe of them is the fact that Evolution has explained God. Its a great book, you might be interested.

  •    First off, I think epchois_nai_nan is absolutely correct. The discussion is no longer currently surrounding evolutionary design on planet earth, because earth has been almost inscrutably rejected as a premier host for life-suitable conditions. The discussion has now shifted to what scientists and astrophysicists term "Panspermia"; whether life could have actually originated on other planets aside from our own. Unless verifiable proof that can be tested and retested helps to promulgate the evolutionary model up and beyond the current constraints the creation model imposes upon scientific veracity, then there is no enter-way for such a model to begin to make its entrance.

        Moreover, the discussion of the existence of God, thus far, has barely begun to enter into the playpen of modern philosophical and theological propositions; over which God's nonexistence is barely hanging off with its pinky. The statement that "God does not exist, therefore, enjoy life and be happy" is presumptuous at best. For indeed, if God does not exists, as the apostle Paul cautioned, "drink, eat and be merry, for tomorrow we die". A godless life is indeed not worth concerning yourself over with. However, is the atheist correct? Does God have no remedial arguments in support of His existence? On the contrary, I would stand to think the very reverse. I would change the question to more soundly ask, does Atheism have any insuperable arguments for its claim that God does not exist? To which one may unhesitantly answer with an outstanding no. What I typically find in my discussions with atheists is that the redundant old-aged arguments of the existence of evil, evolution, the uncertainty of the gospels or the uncertainty of God’s ontological nature popping up again and again. Such rephrasing of well-refuted rebuttals sort of reminds me of an antique misshaped accordion that is constantly used in exuberance to create a cocaphany of alienated and irritating sounds. All the mores so, the evidence for God’s existence proves to be utterly overwhelming. So that, when one mentions arguments that include the reality of contingency, the origin of the universe, the fine-tuning of the universe, the reality of moral values, the historical reliability of the resurrection and the personal experience of God in human life, atheism really proves to hold no indiffusible attacks on the truth-claims of theism. In fact, the grip of atheism on modern-day Christian Apologetics is so pathetically weak, that it stands to reason that the really undergirded issues for the skeptic are much more emotional than intellectual.

      Finally, but briefly, I would like to add that the notion that enjoyment in life is breachable aside from the existence of God is lacking in philosophical muster. For indeed, the Christian may heartily respond that unless one can establish an absolute origin for the experience of such gregarious beliefs (i.e, enjoyment, peace, hope, satisfaction etc.) those experiences are no more than relativized expressions of exactly that, mere experience. Such insight would be true that in any particular instance a person may assert that in his worldview, enjoyment entails the destruction and annihilation of other members of his own species. Thus, when the Islamic terrorist strikes innocent civilian domains and expresses that his experience is girded on an enjoyable and satisfactory understanding of life, who can really argue that his reasoning is wrong ? At best one may argue that his reasoning is equivocally unshared by the majority of members of his own species, but they cannot conscionably assert that his reasoning is utterly and objectively wrong. For then, where does such objectivity come form? If enjoyment is a faculty of "goodness" then goodness must emanate from objective right and objective right form immutable objective moral values. Yet, such values only exist if God exists. Therefore, those skeptics on the London train have at best attempted to borrow from the Christian worldview in order to debunk it.
  • [quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7244.msg96161#msg96161 date=1224719090]
    I was talking to an athiest friend yesterday.... I convinced Him to start reading the Bible (starting with the Gospel of Saint Mark) and we talked on MSN for around an hour... when i asked him what he would tell GOD when he dies, he told me he would tell GOD that there was no real PHYSICAL proof that you exist.....  my simplest answer was: LOOK AROUND YOU... nature, humans, existance, and the complections of the human body and its function and all that, and he just replied and said it could be ALL explained by sciences....     what can i tell him to make him believe that God really exists? I told him thats where faith comes in, but he didn't accept that..... help please?


    Have seen the movie "The song of Bernadette"? It is about the peasant girl who had the vision about the Holy Mother in Lourdes,France. At the end of the movie,there is a verse that goes ""For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible".

    At any rate,you might want your Science-oriented friend to read the following story:

    Dialogue with an Atheist Professor

    An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

    Prof: So you believe in God?

    Student: Absolutely, sir.

    Prof: Is God good?

    Student: Sure.

    Prof: Is God all-powerful?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

    (Student is silent.)

    Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Is Satan good?

    Student: No.

    Prof: Where does Satan come from?

    Student: From...God...

    Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: So who created evil?

    (Student does not answer.)

    Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

    Student: Yes, sir.

    Prof: So, who created them?

    (Student has no answer.)

    Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever

    seen God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your

    God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

    Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

    Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

    Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

    Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

    Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: No sir. There isn't.

    (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

    Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even

    more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

    (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

    Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

    Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

    Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if
    you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make
    darkness darker, wouldn't you?

    Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

    Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

    Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

    Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.

    Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

    Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

    Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

    Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

    Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

    (The class breaks out into laughter.)

    Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.

    With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

    (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

    Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

    Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.



  • Here is our slogan as christians!!!

    I Would rather live my life as if there was a GOD and find out there isn't a God than
    than to live my life as if there is no GOD and find out there is a GOD!

    ;)

  • [quote author=Conqueror link=topic=7244.msg96266#msg96266 date=1224916326]
    Here is our slogan as christians!!!

    I Would rather live my life as if there was a GOD and find out there isn't a God than
    than to live my life as if there is no GOD and find out there is a GOD!

    ;)




    Pascal's argument.....a very incisive slogan indeed
  • [quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7244.msg96260#msg96260 date=1224900627]
    [quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7244.msg96161#msg96161 date=1224719090]
    I was talking to an athiest friend yesterday.... I convinced Him to start reading the Bible (starting with the Gospel of Saint Mark) and we talked on MSN for around an hour... when i asked him what he would tell GOD when he dies, he told me he would tell GOD that there was no real PHYSICAL proof that you exist.....  my simplest answer was: LOOK AROUND YOU... nature, humans, existance, and the complections of the human body and its function and all that, and he just replied and said it could be ALL explained by sciences....     what can i tell him to make him believe that God really exists? I told him thats where faith comes in, but he didn't accept that..... help please?


    Have seen the movie "The song of Bernadette"? It is about the peasant girl who had the vision about the Holy Mother in Lourdes,France. At the end of the movie,there is a verse that goes ""For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible".

    At any rate,you might want your Science-oriented friend to read the following story:

    Dialogue with an Atheist Professor

    An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

    Prof: So you believe in God?

    Student: Absolutely, sir.

    Prof: Is God good?

    Student: Sure.

    Prof: Is God all-powerful?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

    (Student is silent.)

    Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Is Satan good?

    Student: No.

    Prof: Where does Satan come from?

    Student: From...God...

    Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: So who created evil?

    (Student does not answer.)

    Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

    Student: Yes, sir.

    Prof: So, who created them?

    (Student has no answer.)

    Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever

    seen God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your

    God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

    Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

    Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

    Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

    Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

    Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: No sir. There isn't.

    (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

    Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even

    more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

    (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

    Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

    Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

    Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if
    you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make
    darkness darker, wouldn't you?

    Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

    Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

    Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

    Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.

    Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

    Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

    Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

    Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

    Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

    (The class breaks out into laughter.)

    Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.

    With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

    (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

    Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

    Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.






    Thanks Hezekiel for that thought-provoking post.

    It raises an important issue that cannot be denied in fact: Those who are proponents of atheism are in fact "preaching" atheism based on lack of faith that God does not exist; just as much as those preaching the existence of God are preaching the message that He does exist, based on existence of their faith.

    Its all faith. Society has to respect people's faiths.

    I heard an interview recently by a Professor at Carnegie Melon, I'm not sure if he's an atheist or not, but Dr Randy Pauch was saying that there are no scientists that can disprove fairies are dancing on the grass in the park; and his point was that one cannot and should not interefere with people's faiths using science.
  • Many people disagree, but I firmly believe that faith and Science can co-exist very very happily! They don't contradict each other, they compliment each other. Faith is the Who and Science is the How. The only reason intelligent design is regarded as pseudo-science is because the whole topic is so emotionally charged...people don't want to believe in God. That's where the stories about aliens and parallel dimensions come in. The idea that an intelligent being created the universe is nowhere near as outlandish as those. All in all, extraordinary evidence i.e. our very existence, demands an extraordinary verdict: that God does indeed exist. So what I'm saying is, our faith is not just blind faith, its a well drawn conclusion based on all the evidence that we are surrounded with.
  • woah good job binC.

    Prooving the Existence of God in the form of a Scientific experiment :)
    Well done.



    Christopher.
  • Idea: you can put another sticker below this one saying:
    "Living with God is the ultimate joy."

    GBU
  • [quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7244.msg96260#msg96260 date=1224900627]
    [quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7244.msg96161#msg96161 date=1224719090]
    I was talking to an athiest friend yesterday.... I convinced Him to start reading the Bible (starting with the Gospel of Saint Mark) and we talked on MSN for around an hour... when i asked him what he would tell GOD when he dies, he told me he would tell GOD that there was no real PHYSICAL proof that you exist.....  my simplest answer was: LOOK AROUND YOU... nature, humans, existance, and the complections of the human body and its function and all that, and he just replied and said it could be ALL explained by sciences....     what can i tell him to make him believe that God really exists? I told him thats where faith comes in, but he didn't accept that..... help please?


    Have seen the movie "The song of Bernadette"? It is about the peasant girl who had the vision about the Holy Mother in Lourdes,France. At the end of the movie,there is a verse that goes ""For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible".

    At any rate,you might want your Science-oriented friend to read the following story:

    Dialogue with an Atheist Professor

    An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

    Prof: So you believe in God?

    Student: Absolutely, sir.

    Prof: Is God good?

    Student: Sure.

    Prof: Is God all-powerful?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

    (Student is silent.)

    Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Is Satan good?

    Student: No.

    Prof: Where does Satan come from?

    Student: From...God...

    Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: So who created evil?

    (Student does not answer.)

    Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

    Student: Yes, sir.

    Prof: So, who created them?

    (Student has no answer.)

    Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever

    seen God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your

    God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

    Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

    Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

    Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

    Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

    Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: No sir. There isn't.

    (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

    Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even

    more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

    (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

    Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

    Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

    Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if
    you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make
    darkness darker, wouldn't you?

    Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

    Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

    Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

    Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.

    Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

    Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

    Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

    Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

    Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

    (The class breaks out into laughter.)

    Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.

    With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

    (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

    Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

    Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.






    I have read this dialogue before and I have two questions:

    1. I heard it was Einstein who spoke the words the student spoke, is that true?
    2. Can we say that there is a place where God is not? Where He is absent?
        (The absence of God being the abscense of good and love, being the presence of evil..)

      "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into
        heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

    God Bless
    Please pray for me
  • [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7244.msg96369#msg96369 date=1225117330]
    I have read this dialogue before and I have two questions:

    1. I heard it was Einstein who spoke the words the student spoke, is that true?
    2. Can we say that there is a place where God is not? Where He is absent?
        (The absence of God being the abscense of good and love, being the presence of evil..)

      "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into
        heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."



    NEVER....God is everywhere at all times. He is "Ineffable, invisible, infinite, without beginning; everlasting, timeless, immeasurable, incomprehensible, unchangeable Creator of all; Savior of everyone....", St. Gregory Liturgy > The Anaphora.

    That concept is made up my Jehovah's witnesses.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=7244.msg96375#msg96375 date=1225124667]
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7244.msg96369#msg96369 date=1225117330]
    I have read this dialogue before and I have two questions:

    1. I heard it was Einstein who spoke the words the student spoke, is that true?
    2. Can we say that there is a place where God is not? Where He is absent?
        (The absence of God being the abscense of good and love, being the presence of evil..)

       "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into
        heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."


    NEVER....God is everywhere at all times. He is "Ineffable, invisible, infinite, without beginning; everlasting, timeless, immeasurable, incomprehensible, unchangeable Creator of all; Savior of everyone....", St. Gregory Liturgy > The Anaphora.

    That concept is made up my Jehovah's witnesses.


    Exactly, that's what I thought, but then this dialogue is not right is it??? Since David said that he can never escape from God, not even in hell...
    But this dialogue explains evil as the abscense of God as cold is the absence of heat...

    God Bless
  • [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7244.msg96378#msg96378 date=1225126756]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=7244.msg96375#msg96375 date=1225124667]
    [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7244.msg96369#msg96369 date=1225117330]
    I have read this dialogue before and I have two questions:

    1. I heard it was Einstein who spoke the words the student spoke, is that true?
    2. Can we say that there is a place where God is not? Where He is absent?
        (The absence of God being the abscense of good and love, being the presence of evil..)

      "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into
        heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."


    NEVER....God is everywhere at all times. He is "Ineffable, invisible, infinite, without beginning; everlasting, timeless, immeasurable, incomprehensible, unchangeable Creator of all; Savior of everyone....", St. Gregory Liturgy > The Anaphora.

    That concept is made up my Jehovah's witnesses.


    Exactly, that's what I thought, but then this dialogue is not right is it??? Since David said that he can never escape from God, not even in hell...
    But this dialogue explains evil as the abscense of God as cold is the absence of heat...

    God Bless


    not exactly. evil is the absence of "good" not exactly GOD. that's what was said. the professor just tried to trick the kid in the concept of the being of opposite things.

    I don't know why they have not included the freewill that men have. other then what the student said, the freewill that God gives us confirms the absence of "good" from mankind's side not God's.
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