Hi,
Im not sure where this thread goes, but I just wanted to know: Do we believe that the Catholics DO in fact partake of the Holy Body & Blood of Christ during Communion?? Even though we are now separated, do they still take the Eucharist??
I know they believe that they are having the Holy Body. But do we believe that it is in fact the Holy Body on their alter DESPITE the fact that we are separated??
Thanks
Comments
My opinion (only MY view) is that they beleive that they partake of the bidy of Christ. This is evident that they consider the Eucharist the pinacle of the church and sacrements.
Pray for my weakness,
Coptic Youth
Hi,
Im not sure where this thread goes, but I just wanted to know: Do we believe that the Catholics DO in fact partake of the Holy Body & Blood of Christ during Communion?? Even though we are now separated, do they still take the Eucharist??
I know they believe that they are having the Holy Body. But do we believe that it is in fact the Holy Body on their alter DESPITE the fact that we are separated??
Thanks
Hello everyone concerned about this topic.
As far as I am aware Holy Communion, the partaking of the Body and Blood, is connected irrevocably with the nature of the Church, ie the Church is the One Body of Christ, the True Vine and we are grafted on (baptised)into that Body.
The priest is operating as a member of that body and cannot use his priestly function (so to say) outside of that Body, as, for example, in a schismatic or heretical body.
The Roman Catholic church is in schism from an Orthodox point of view so its sacraments are not valid (just as for similar reasons the RC church does not recognise the Anglican eucharistic).
God is merciful however so he would not allow people of good will to be without help wherever they are, so Scripture says. How that works I don't know.
God bless you all for keeping the faith
You are saying that because they are in schism with us, their sacraments are NOT valid.
marriage is also a sacrament. Therefore, by virtue of this logic, it would imply that all those married in the catholic church are in fact living in adultary or still living in fornication and sin - UNTIL they get married in the Orthodox Church?
Aiden,
You are saying that because they are in schism with us, their sacraments are NOT valid.
marriage is also a sacrament. Therefore, by virtue of this logic, it would imply that all those married in the catholic church are in fact living in adultary or still living in fornication and sin - UNTIL they get married in the Orthodox Church?
Marriage is different. I don't think anyone would expect you to be remarried if you converted.
Communion is connected to the oneness of the one,catholic and apostolic church. I'll give you an example, a Catholic priest could celebrate mass when excommunicated hence talk of 'black masses'. I believe this is impossible for orthodox priests. Their power is not conferred personally but only 'works'(crude lingo') if they are in good order with the church
Marriage is different. I don't think anyone would expect you to be remarried if you converted.
Well, actually - for your information, if a protestant or catholic decides to become Orthodox, not only do they have to be RE-BAPTISED, but they have to be RE-MARRIED.
So, it means the CoC sees married protestants and Catholics living in adultary?
Well, actually - for your information, if a protestant or catholic decides to become Orthodox, not only do they have to be RE-BAPTISED, but they have to be RE-MARRIED.
what's your source of this? a book or a sermon we can listen to....
When a Catholic priest prays a Catholic liturgy does he pray it with any less faith than our priests? Does he believe any less that he is dealing with the Body and Blood of Christ? No! I think God respects sincerity far more than title.
Its interesting to note that the Catholics have had just as many (if not more) Eucharist miracles (i.e. turning to PHYSICAL flesh and blood tissue light, emerging from wafer etc.) than we have in the Coptic Chruch. That says something for its authenticity does it not?
Pray for me!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7020.msg93689#msg93689 date=1218316301]
Well, actually - for your information, if a protestant or catholic decides to become Orthodox, not only do they have to be RE-BAPTISED, but they have to be RE-MARRIED.
what's your source of this? a book or a sermon we can listen to....
Hi Mina,
I think its so well known this issue. I mean, if a Coptic Person marries outside the Coptic Church (say in the Catholic or Protestant Churches), then he will be ex-communicated from the Church. He is considered to be living in adultary (as far as I know). He needs to be re-married in the Orthodox.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7020.msg93695#msg93695 date=1218341929]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7020.msg93689#msg93689 date=1218316301]
Well, actually - for your information, if a protestant or catholic decides to become Orthodox, not only do they have to be RE-BAPTISED, but they have to be RE-MARRIED.
what's your source of this? a book or a sermon we can listen to....
Hi Mina,
I think its so well known this issue. I mean, if a Coptic Person marries outside the Coptic Church (say in the Catholic or Protestant Churches), then he will be ex-communicated from the Church. He is considered to be living in adultary (as far as I know). He needs to be re-married in the Orthodox.
the phrase "well known" is not a source.
are you are aware that a Coptic cannot marry in the Catholic Church, and if he does he will be ex-communicated from his Church? Are you aware of this??
OK Mina,
are you are aware that a Coptic cannot marry in the Catholic Church, and if he does he will be ex-communicated from his Church? Are you aware of this??
yes i am.
For protestants however, they dont believe it is the true Body and Blood, so for example if a child drops the juice (not even wine) on the floor its no big deal, because its not his real blood jsut a symbol. In this case, the lord would not perform the conversion because as Paul says "whoever eats of the flesh and drinks of the blood unworthily shall be condemned of the body and blood of Christ".. And Christ would not give his Body and Blood to those who dont believe it otherwise all protestant would be condemned of his Body and Blood. So the Lord would just let them drink and eat juice and bread without converting it. If he did convert it, without them knowing or believing, than just like I said people might drop the blood or throw away the extras without the knowledge that this is the true Body and blood, and this would cause a seriouse problem for them with God. So it makes sense that God would not convert it.
So, Mina, now you are aware that a man will be ex-communicated for marrying outside his Coptic Church, then it means the Coptic does not recognise marriages outside its Body? It means therefore that it must see those being married in the Catholic or Protestant as living in adultary UNTIL they are remarried in the Coptic Church? You agree?
NO. that's totally different. if i take what you are considering and apply to the rest of the sacraments, then they would have to get rebaptized again if he wants to repent....which is not necessarily as we all know because it's only one canonical baptism in a lifetime. So unless this is a full clear rule in our Church, WITH A SOURCE, then your opinion doesn't make sense here.
NOW about the "adultery" you are talking about. What's worst is fully living in darkness, not in Christ light. The Church wouldn't care as much of those people being "adulterers" rather then being dead in darkness and soul. so you have to look at the big picture and consider.
Having offered my credentials I would mention that no priest has ever asked me if my wife converted to Orthodoxy when I did. Our marriage is taken to be just that even though we were married first civilly and then in a Roman Catholic service.
Am I right in thinking that you would be excommunicated when 'marrying out' as a Copt. That's different from one spouse converting and the other not wishing to. Surely your marriage would be recognised as such and not an adulterous relationship.
Firm info only, please.
By the way, the British Orthodox Church, does not 'do' anything to other Orthodox who wish to join. Hope that information is relevant to a conversation I'm finding hard to follow.
This isn't entirely my arguement being a member of the Russian Orthodox church. I'm labouring under the assumption that we are not too separated and that one day, God willing, we will be united.
Having offered my credentials I would mention that no priest has ever asked me if my wife converted to Orthodoxy when I did. Our marriage is taken to be just that even though we were married first civilly and then in a Roman Catholic service.
Am I right in thinking that you would be excommunicated when 'marrying out' as a Copt. That's different from one spouse converting and the other not wishing to. Surely your marriage would be recognised as such and not an adulterous relationship.
Firm info only, please.
By the way, the British Orthodox Church, does not 'do' anything to other Orthodox who wish to join. Hope that information is relevant to a conversation I'm finding hard to follow.
Well, i can say, and Mina also agrees with this point, that if a Copt marries in the Catholic Church he/she will NOT be ex-communicated, but will not be allowed to have the Holy Communion until he/she repents and remarries in the Coptic Church.
This idea of "you have to repent, and then remarry in the CoC" leads me to believe that they (the CoC) do not acknowledge Catholic marriages. By logical conclusion of this, it would appear, or definately give me the impression that the CoC sees all those who are married in the Catholic Church as living in adultary.
i don't think it really matters in what kind of church you are married, as long you are married in front of God.
Hi Magdalena,
But why is it then that the CoC requires that those who get married outside in the Catholic repent 1st and get married in the CoC? you are also banned from the Holy Communion until so, and you are required to get married again in the CoC.
Why doesn't it recognise Catholic weddings?? It recognises that the Holy Communion in the RC IS the sacred Eucharist, so why doesn't it see weddings as the same, as well baptism?
[quote author=*magdalena* link=topic=7020.msg93771#msg93771 date=1218617521]
i don't think it really matters in what kind of church you are married, as long you are married in front of God.
Hi Magdalena,
But why is it then that the CoC requires that those who get married outside in the Catholic repent 1st and get married in the CoC? you are also banned from the Holy Communion until so, and you are required to get married again in the CoC.
Why doesn't it recognise Catholic weddings?? It recognises that the Holy Communion in the RC IS the sacred Eucharist, so why doesn't it see weddings as the same, as well baptism?
i am not sure but maybe, about the baptism and wedding, that is something you only do once right?
the Holy Communion is something that continues and takes place several times, like as if after a while the influence has to be charged, i know it is a strange way to say it but i don't know how else.
about the mariage, what if the two persons both have a diffrent religion?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7020.msg93773#msg93773 date=1218618080]
[quote author=*magdalena* link=topic=7020.msg93771#msg93771 date=1218617521]
i don't think it really matters in what kind of church you are married, as long you are married in front of God.
Hi Magdalena,
But why is it then that the CoC requires that those who get married outside in the Catholic repent 1st and get married in the CoC? you are also banned from the Holy Communion until so, and you are required to get married again in the CoC.
Why doesn't it recognise Catholic weddings?? It recognises that the Holy Communion in the RC IS the sacred Eucharist, so why doesn't it see weddings as the same, as well baptism?
i am not sure but maybe, about the baptism and wedding, that is something you only do once right?
the Holy Communion is something that continues and takes place several times, like as if after a while the influence has to be charged, i know it is a strange way to say it but i don't know how else.
about the mariage, what if the two persons both have a diffrent religion?
Look, if a person is baptised in the Catholic, they need to be rebaptised in the Orthodox or just have the Myron added afterwards. If they were baptised in the protestant, they are considered NOT baptised in the Orthodox.
If u read the writing of H.G Anba Bishoy he really (REALLY!!!) takes pride in the Coptic Baptism. He tells of a story of a young child that was protestant that had cancer. I think, if I can remember correctly the story, the child AND parents were baptised when the child was around 10 years of age - during the period when this child had cancer. (i think it was leukemia). The family then decided to become Orthodox so the Pope had to rebaptise them again. After the child was rebaptised again, the leukemia went. I mean, from near death to complete healing.
So, basically what H.G. Bishoy was saying was that there is a difference between protestant baptism and orthodox baptism. lol. I cannot help laugh at this as, the difference is quite significant.
U can read about this, as well as other stories from his website.
But suffice to say we do not acknowledge other baptisms, nor weddings done outside the Coptic Church.
Therefore, to return to my original question: does the CoC see all those who are married in the Protestant faith as living in adultary??
[quote author=*magdalena* link=topic=7020.msg93776#msg93776 date=1218619412]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7020.msg93773#msg93773 date=1218618080]
[quote author=*magdalena* link=topic=7020.msg93771#msg93771 date=1218617521]
i don't think it really matters in what kind of church you are married, as long you are married in front of God.
Hi Magdalena,
But why is it then that the CoC requires that those who get married outside in the Catholic repent 1st and get married in the CoC? you are also banned from the Holy Communion until so, and you are required to get married again in the CoC.
Why doesn't it recognise Catholic weddings?? It recognises that the Holy Communion in the RC IS the sacred Eucharist, so why doesn't it see weddings as the same, as well baptism?
i am not sure but maybe, about the baptism and wedding, that is something you only do once right?
the Holy Communion is something that continues and takes place several times, like as if after a while the influence has to be charged, i know it is a strange way to say it but i don't know how else.
about the mariage, what if the two persons both have a diffrent religion?
Look, if a person is baptised in the Catholic, they need to be rebaptised in the Orthodox or just have the Myron added afterwards. If they were baptised in the protestant, they are considered NOT baptised in the Orthodox.
If u read the writing of H.G Anba Bishoy he really (REALLY!!!) takes pride in the Coptic Baptism. He tells of a story of a young child that was protestant that had cancer. I think, if I can remember correctly the story, the child AND parents were baptised when the child was around 10 years of age - during the period when this child had cancer. (i think it was leukemia). The family then decided to become Orthodox so the Pope had to rebaptise them again. After the child was rebaptised again, the leukemia went. I mean, from near death to complete healing.
So, basically what H.G. Bishoy was saying was that there is a difference between protestant baptism and orthodox baptism. lol. I cannot help laugh at this as, the difference is quite significant.
U can read about this, as well as other stories from his website.
But suffice to say we do not acknowledge other baptisms, nor weddings done outside the Coptic Church.
Therefore, to return to my original question: does the CoC see all those who are married in the Protestant faith as living in adultary??
Well, we acknowledge the baptism and marriage of the Eastern Orthodox, don't we?
As far as Protestant marriages, you pretty much got it. If we go by the book, their marriage was not administered by a priest, so what you said, I believe, does apply.
Regarding QT's question its not for us to go about and say you are all living in adultery and expect that the COC is the only church in the world who's marriage is accepted by God, to say so is completely ignorant. However to say either is not for us to say because we are not God. Let Him do the judging and worry about your own salvation.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness