Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.8K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 367
- Technical Topics 367
Praise him and exalt him above all
Hi,
I just came across a very interesting sound track of Arepsalin in English, but americanised. Well, country-music-ised.
What do you think of this?
Is this something that can be done / sang in our church???
I just came across a very interesting sound track of Arepsalin in English, but americanised. Well, country-music-ised.
What do you think of this?
Is this something that can be done / sang in our church???
Comments
I do not know if Paul is just remixing, or if they actually sing this way in the Church.. I personally haven't been to Hawaii so I do not know. But if they do, then I suppose it's like Africa, the Church in Africa does some dance...
It's mixing Christianity with the customs of the land... just like St. Mark did when he came to Egypt... As Bishop Antonious Morcos said, we are trying to make their Christians, not Egyptians.
Just to put things into perspective, this recording was done by someone named Paul from our Coptic Church in Hawaii. I have other recordings by him, some of which can be found at www.copticheritage.org.
I do not know if Paul is just remixing, or if they actually sing this way in the Church.. I personally haven't been to Hawaii so I do not know. But if they do, then I suppose it's like Africa, the Church in Africa does some dance...
It's mixing Christianity with the customs of the land... just like St. Mark did when he came to Egypt... As Bishop Antonious Morcos said, we are trying to make their Christians, not Egyptians.
Well, ok.. if we take H,G's logic then why aren't we allowed to do the tasbeha say, in France, or in the UK, or even Scotland using their cultural traditions also??
I'm not suggesting that we come to Church wearing scottish kilts or singing it with bagpipes, but.. what would be wrong with that??
[quote author=user00 link=topic=7005.msg93523#msg93523 date=1217884732]
Just to put things into perspective, this recording was done by someone named Paul from our Coptic Church in Hawaii. I have other recordings by him, some of which can be found at www.copticheritage.org.
I do not know if Paul is just remixing, or if they actually sing this way in the Church.. I personally haven't been to Hawaii so I do not know. But if they do, then I suppose it's like Africa, the Church in Africa does some dance...
It's mixing Christianity with the customs of the land... just like St. Mark did when he came to Egypt... As Bishop Antonious Morcos said, we are trying to make their Christians, not Egyptians.
Well, ok.. if we take H,G's logic then why aren't we allowed to do the tasbeha say, in France, or in the UK, or even Scotland using their cultural traditions also??
I'm not suggesting that we come to Church wearing scottish kilts or singing it with bagpipes, but.. what would be wrong with that??
it would be wrong to do INTO church(s). it's that simple.
Im not complaining here at all.. not at all. I'm just curious as to why congregations in Kenya can pray, for example, with dancing and singing and clapping during the mass and the tasbeha, yet we cannot even play the violin during the mass in the UK liturgy??
Why is that??
timeout. we sing it like all the other recordings of this hymn. he did it as something i guess to relax and enjoy. we DO NOT sing it this way, ok. lets clear that up. we sing it the traditional way
What are you talking about? The tune didn't change at all, its not more relaxed or anything, all it has is an instrument in the background and maybe the break up is different then what you are used to. But the tune and hymn did not change AT ALL.
Im just curious, but if H.G Bishop Antonios Morcos says that we should respect people's culture during the mass and the tasbeha, then why do we have to sing the tasbeha or pray the mass in a way that is done in Egypt? For example.. why not apply the same logic to what he's done in Malawi or Kenya to say , congregations in the western diaspora such as Europe/America or Australia?
Im not complaining here at all.. not at all. I'm just curious as to why congregations in Kenya can pray, for example, with dancing and singing and clapping during the mass and the tasbeha, yet we cannot even play the violin during the mass in the UK liturgy??
Why is that??
OK.......before i would said anything, this post will now go crazy.....
Why not, easily because you can't. What HGB Antonios and even Bishop Paul and maybe Bishop Makarios (just being in the same area), they all do axcept as much from the calture, ONLAY ENOUGH to not replace urs. I don't think they are dancing in our liturgies. I know the Ethiobian church have somthing similar to this, dancing in front of the sacrifice....maybe someone can confirm that.
BUT not our Coptic Church.
Also there are huge difference between us, who live in Euro US and other 1st-class country, and the people in africa that you might be jelous from for "dencing in front of the altar"......
Worry about your salvation with the way it always been where you are located.
Also btw, what's the point of using any musical instrument......."Our accepted instrument by God is our heart's strings" [HGB Rafael]
If they accept cultural traditions of the Africans to be used in the mass, why not the western cultural traditions in our mass: you know, guitar, harp, violins, organs in the mass & tasbeha?
I don't understand why?
I'm very happy with the way it is, but I'm just curious as to why not?
Its not our cultural tradition to dance during praise.. - well at least its not mine anyway, but it would be normal to sing praises with other instruments other than the cymbal and triangle. (that's just one of the traditions we have).
Also, another western tradition is the 1/4 tone. All coptic music is based on the 1/4 tone (and ARABIC MUSIC TOO!!).
In the west, the musical ladder/scales are not based on this tone. So, culturally speaking, our singing should be based on
Do Ray Mi Fa So La Ti Do. These musical notes do not appear in the tasbeha nor Holy Mass.
Do you think they should as a respect for our culture. As the person said below: our aim is to produce Christians, not Egyptians.
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=7005.msg93577#msg93577 date=1217980501]
timeout. we sing it like all the other recordings of this hymn. he did it as something i guess to relax and enjoy. we DO NOT sing it this way, ok. lets clear that up. we sing it the traditional way
What are you talking about? The tune didn't change at all, its not more relaxed or anything, all it has is an instrument in the background and maybe the break up is different then what you are used to. But the tune and hymn did not change AT ALL.
its that style of singing. this is why most people in my church are against that. he has changed other hymns tooo, like hiten, how can you change that? go listen to the whole CD its caused a lot of tension. He should't change the hymns, if you want to play them with a guitar fine, but dont change the tune, and i believe he does change parts in aripsalin.
I am pretty sure that even in Africa, they stay traditional during the services for the most part (perhaps someone who has been there may confirm)
Anything different might be their own spiritual songs apart from the services...
Like Albair Mikhail said in an interview at copticheritage.org, if the Church in every place started to add new hymns or change the tunes, there would no longer be any unity and it would be chaotic (like if in North Africa they put the alhan to rap or something like that)
So again, I never said, or at least never meant, to say that in Africa they change tunes and such of the liturgy and midnight praises... No one can really do that... you can't just change it...
If in a gathering they do their own stuff, that's another thing... but not in the services...
Sorry for the chaos that the misinterpretation of my words has caused...
yeah, but Mina,
If they accept cultural traditions of the Africans to be used in the mass, why not the western cultural traditions in our mass: you know, guitar, harp, violins, organs in the mass & tasbeha?
I don't understand why?
I'm very happy with the way it is, but I'm just curious as to why not?
Its not our cultural tradition to dance during praise.. - well at least its not mine anyway, but it would be normal to sing praises with other instruments other than the cymbal and triangle. (that's just one of the traditions we have).
Maybe i didn't make myself clear enough. WHY we don’t use instruments because:
Isaiah 38:20
"we will sing my songs with stringed instruments All the days of our life, in the house of the Lord."
The translation is not clear to prove my point. But in the Arabic, it says “فَنَعْزِفُ بِأَوْتَارِنَا” meaning our strings. HGB Youannes always say “أوتار قلوبنا” which means the strings of our hearts. Almost every single time I have seen him talk about hymns he’d always use that verse. When I asked to write something beneficial to live with on my Psalmody, he wrote that verse.
The main point here is that God wants your heart, not other things you do with to make sound better.
The ¼ tone you are talking about is not fully the Arabic way you are talking about. We are Egyptians. Even our Arabic culture in Egypt is affected by OUR original Coptic heritage. HGB Makarios have a whole 2-hour lecture about how this is so. So thinking that our coptic heritage is Arabic, that is false. Maybe affected in some ways but not all. Using the Do Ray Me…, is the music language. We don’t speak to God with music. It’s that simple. Many are doing it, but they never fully come to the really ways of hymns and tasbeha. If you find one, I would love to see. First you are not disrespecting any of the other cultures. That is something that needs to be understood. Becoming Christian always have limits. Look at the protestant churches. they did what you are talking about right now. But all based on the false bases of Christianity.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7005.msg93580#msg93580 date=1217985298]
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=7005.msg93577#msg93577 date=1217980501]
timeout. we sing it like all the other recordings of this hymn. he did it as something i guess to relax and enjoy. we DO NOT sing it this way, ok. lets clear that up. we sing it the traditional way
What are you talking about? The tune didn't change at all, its not more relaxed or anything, all it has is an instrument in the background and maybe the break up is different then what you are used to. But the tune and hymn did not change AT ALL.
its that style of singing. this is why most people in my church are against that. he has changed other hymns tooo, like hiten, how can you change that? go listen to the whole CD its caused a lot of tension. He should't change the hymns, if you want to play them with a guitar fine, but dont change the tune, and i believe he does change parts in aripsalin.
I have the whole cd and have heard it many times, i see nothing wrong with it, i personally don't like it but that doesn't mean there is something wrong with it. I see no difference in the tune at all. Its only the ukalili that is changing how it sounds giving it a different feel to it, but its has not been changed.
I know the Ethiobian church have somthing similar to this, dancing in front of the sacrifice....maybe someone can confirm that.
BUT not our Coptic Church
Mina, you are Absolutely WRONG on this one. Never infront of the sacrifice. The Tewahdo church is even more traditional than the Coptic church. By no means does it allow any bizzare instruments into its rich Church liturgical hymns.There has not been a single case of such example since the 3rd century and won't be.
The Ethiopian Tewahdo Chruch Praises the Lord exactly using the instruments of Psalmist:
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
/
mahraeel
plzz p4m sister in Christ
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7005.msg93582#msg93582 date=1217990601]
I know the Ethiobian church have somthing similar to this, dancing in front of the sacrifice....maybe someone can confirm that.
BUT not our Coptic Church
Mina, you are Absolutely WRONG on this one. Never infront of the sacrifice. The Tewahdo church is even more traditional than the Coptic church. By no means does it allow any bizzare instruments into its rich Church liturgical hymns.There has not been a single case of such example since the 3rd century and won't be.
The Ethiopian Tewahdo Chruch Praises the Lord exactly using the instruments of Psalmist:
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
and i except being wrong.....thanks for clarfying this.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7005.msg93582#msg93582 date=1217990601]
I know the Ethiobian church have somthing similar to this, dancing in front of the sacrifice....maybe someone can confirm that.
BUT not our Coptic Church
Mina, you are Absolutely WRONG on this one. Never infront of the sacrifice. The Tewahdo church is even more traditional than the Coptic church. By no means does it allow any bizzare instruments into its rich Church liturgical hymns.There has not been a single case of such example since the 3rd century and won't be.
The Ethiopian Tewahdo Chruch Praises the Lord exactly using the instruments of Psalmist:
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
Thanks Hezekiel for taking the time to prove Mina wrong. Its good for his spiritual growth.
Feel free to help him whenever you get the chance.
God bless u all