Hello,
I just like to know the spiritual circumstances that result in singing in a language that you are not familiar with NOR do u understand? is that in anyway good for you? I mean, what IS the spiritual effects that one will incur if he/she continues to sing in Coptic and not know the meaning?? Is there any harm in that?
Although Coptic is a language in its own right, if it is not used on a daily basis, it becomes redundant.
Let me explain: I speak 3 languages fluently: French, English and Arabic (but my arabic is the weakest as I do not practice that, nor do i live or have ever lived in an arabic speaking country). Now, my English is not as good as my French, but my English teacher said to me :"If u want to improve your english, you MUST practice using it.. do not be afraid of making mistakes".
So, I come on tasbeha.org -- i write a few things in English, I come on other sites, I read English where/when I can etc.. so, my English should improve.
Its well known, to improve in ANY language you MUST use it, otherwise it will always be foreign to you.
How can we ever use Coptic? No one speaks it.
But what is the mental/spiritual/psychological damage that can result in praying CONTINUOUSLY with a language that is foreign to you?? Do you end up actually praying, or just singing to appease tradition?
Yes, I know that the meaning is also there.. some or most hymns are now translated into English/French/Arabic, but even if you have the translation, you cannot concentrate on singing in Coptic whilst reading the translation at the same time.
So what's the answer? U read the translation before singing? OK..so you read the translation before singing, and what's the result? You immediately forget the words(translation) to what is being sung.
I think that unless the meaning of what we offer to God penetrates our hearts, we are not really praying, we are just singing beautiful hymns. And they ARE beautiful!! There's nothing More beautiful than the Coptic hymn Agios Athanatos Nainan (in Coptic). Arabic doesn't even come close in terms of how it sounds.. but, if I just posted ONE verse from the Coptic Hymn :"AGIOS ATHANATOS NAINAN" - would u know what it means??? Off by heart?
OK.. let's take a small test. Without going to the site with the translation, tell me if u understand what this means:
[b]
Zespota Feelan ethropon, fok pe-pi-ou nem pi ageyoun, jeh aki aksoti emmon
Now, what did that mean to YOU?? So, imagine, if u walked into Church, and u heard that.. WOuld u honestly remember what it means?? No.. but who cares, it sounds good - so why stop??
For me, all I know is "jeh aki aksoti emmon" = "because he came and saved us".
But still, we are not praying 100% as there is always going to be some things missed from the meaning because we are using a language that is redundant in our lives.
Comments
Singing hymns in coptic isn't just beautiful, but it's also our heritage so I think it has a deeper meaning for all Egyptians... but instead of saying we don't know coptic, let's just do everything in arabic (which is what some people would prefer in Egypt etc.) we should all make the effort and study coptic and revive the language (at least within church)
God Bless
Please pray for me
I agree that it's not good to sing hymns of which we don't know the meaning, so I think first you read the translation to the hymn so you know what you're saying, then you memorize the hymn, and once you've mastered it well enough and don't have to think so much anymore to sing it, you can start thinking about the meaning of each word while you say it...
Singing hymns in coptic isn't just beautiful, but it's also our heritage so I think it has a deeper meaning for all Egyptians... but instead of saying we don't know coptic, let's just do everything in arabic (which is what some people would prefer in Egypt etc.) we should all make the effort and study coptic and revive the language (at least within church)
God Bless
Please pray for me
I couldn't agree more!
But u've missed the crux of the question/thread.
Allow me to elaborate:
I learnt a hymn called "Agios Athanatos Nainan" (FOR EXAMPLE).. ok. And i read the meaning in English.
Great! So,then I start singing it... whilst singing it, i cannot help but forget the meaning of each verse. I knew what it meant when I learnt it, but whilst singing it - i forgot. Now, if i were to pray with the translation next to me, RATHER THAN praying and contemplating on the words, I'd be reading the translation. So , i won't be singing... I'd be reading. I cannot do both.
I can't read the translation at the same time as sing something in Coptic. Do you see? So our minds are not 100% focused on the prayer.. they are focused on UNDERSTANDING the prayer. Now, doesn't that, initself go against the Church's philosophy?
* The incenseisor has bells on it to draw people's attention to the prayer.. they must be focused on the prayer at all times (its a kind of wake up bell) - as far as I know.
* We only use basic instruments such as the cymbals and triangle in the mass in order to allow us to focus on the prayer, not on the music.
So, how can we focus on the prayer when we waste it in either singing something we don't understand, or in fact waste it in actually understanding then really praying from what we are singing!???
How dangerous is that?
It makes perfect sense how our youth go to the protestant Church after the mass in the CoC now... what did they do? They don't speak Coptic NOR arabic.. they speak English only. Given that they didn't participate in the prayer, they feel hungry spiritually and end up going to the protestant temple. Who can blame them then??
For example,
What does Teoi enhikanos, ehoteni ethouwab Tiro mean? I know the hymn off by heart. I can sing it backwards. But what does it mean. If i read the translation, then I'd not be praying this.. but rather READING or trying to understand the translation.
What does singing do unless my heart, mind and spirit are participating in the actual action of praise??? It has no meaning.
Now, I read the meaning MANY times. But each time I come to sing it, I forget the meaning. I have to go back and read the translation. That's how abstract the Coptic language is to me.
Isn't this dangerous? Surely, if u send ur kids to a CoC and they do not know Coptic, do you think they will be active in the tasbeha, or Church?? I doubt it. We can teach them Coptic, but if its just a case of heritage, what heritage? I mean, our heritage is heiroglyphics and papyrus paper - do we still use them to communicate in our Coptic Church? After all - its our heritage and we are the "TRUE EGYPTIANS" - no?? Shall we also bury our dead in pyramids and mommies, after all its our heritage also.
THis heritage of a Coptic Language has, I fear, become a spiritual burden. Its taken from us the time and concentration we need during prayer. We are not called to be linguistic, nor specialists in the Coptic Language.
As I said before, to know any language, u must use it. But, Coptic is not in use.
Please let me know if my question or concern on this issue is unclear. Its worrying.
Let me tell u something. The spiritual food of the Church (the Coptic Church) is perfect. There's no other Church better. THe saints, the synaxarium etc.. even our alhan/hymns sound better than anything i've heard outside the Church (i.e. Catholic / Protestant).. but to be totally honest with u, the BEST time I had spiritually was in the catholic despite their lack of orthodox spirituality. and the reason for that was I could pray whilst singing hymns in French. I didnt need to read a translation whilst singing. We waste so much precious time in doing things that do not edify us, nor our relationship with God.
This is just my concern. Does anyone here have the same concern, or any ideas concerning this problem we face in our Church?
In regards to that phrase you put up in your first post and asked us the meaning, this is where the problem occurs. There is a lot of Greek intertwined in the Coptic hymns that we sing in church; and when you learn Coptic you will begin to be able to distinguish between the Coptic words and the Greek words. For example, "Lord have mercy". In the mass we say "Kyrie Eleison", but then Abouna says "Je Nai Nan". Why are there two completely different ways to say this phrase in one language. The answer is that it's not one language, "kyrie eleison" is Greek whereas "Nai Nan" (just forget about "Je" for now) is Coptic. This will aid you a lot in understanding the meaning of the hymns.
Personally, I've always thought of hymns as a means to an end - the end being praising the name of our Lord. I've never really thought of the hymns as a praise in themselves - praise must come from the heart of the worshipper. Singing hymns is just ONE way of praising God. We can also praise God in our actions by living according to His commandments, by evangalising others - by serving Him! It doesn't matter HOW you praise God, as long as your heart is filled with praise. It doesn't matter if you understand the hymn you're singing word for word or not, if you're GENIUNELY lifting your heart to the Lord then He will accept your praise. Obviously, by reading a translation of the words later on (while you're not singing the hymn) then you will benefit even more spiritually.
This is exactly the same as reading a chapter of the Bible that we don't understand. Just because we don't understand parts of the Bible and there's no one to explain it to us, does that mean that we should just give up on them and not read them? No of course not! Because reading it over and over again no matter how little we understand it, the routine in itself is spiritually cleansing - something I heard from HG Anba Angaelos.
There's a story of a young monk in a monastery who struggled to understand the words of the Bible, as he was not very educated. This upset him very much, so he went to an older monk to help him. This older monk told him to take a basket to a well far outside the monastery, fill it up with water and then bring it back. The trouble was that this basket was very old and dirty and it was completely full of holes, so it wouldn't even hold any water. So by the time the young monk returned to the older monk with the basket, it was completely empty because the water had leaked out. The older monk instructed him to do the same thing every day, knowing the same thing would happen...but the young monk did as he was told out of obedience. Eventually, the older monk told him "What do you now notice about this basket? When I first gave it to you, it was old, dirty and wouldn't hold any water. It still won't hold any water now - but it's much cleaner now than it was before."
I think I may have gone off the point a bit, but this story teaches us that even without understanding, a routine can still be spiritually beneficial for us if our hearts are where they should be - with the Lord.
Well, I am also a multilingual person. And it has been my experience that the more languages you know, the easier it is to learn other languages, even if you don't use them that much. Now I know you would probably think I'm too ambitious to tell you to do this but it wouldn't kill you to try to learn Coptic. www.remenkimi.com is a great site to start. You don't need to learn the entire language, just some vocabulary. So that when you say "Teoi enhikanos", you would know that "hikanos" means "worthy", and you can deduce that the phrase is saying that Saint Mary is worthy. And you would learn that "ehote" means "more than", which should tell you that Saint Mary is "more worthy than ... (someone)"
In regards to that phrase you put up in your first post and asked us the meaning, this is where the problem occurs. There is a lot of Greek intertwined in the Coptic hymns that we sing in church; and when you learn Coptic you will begin to be able to distinguish between the Coptic words and the Greek words. For example, "Lord have mercy". In the mass we say "Kyrie Eleison", but then Abouna says "Je Nai Nan". Why are there two completely different ways to say this phrase in one language. The answer is that it's not one language, "kyrie eleison" is Greek whereas "Nai Nan" (just forget about "Je" for now) is Coptic. This will aid you a lot in understanding the meaning of the hymns.
OK. For me, the best way of improving my English was to use it. You know? Just use it. Use it at work, when I can, at school, at Church, anywhere.. find friends that speak it, talk to them.. etc.
Who can I have a chat with in Coptic?? Do u see what I mean. The language is redundant, yet very beautiful.
U want me to learn from www.remenkimi.com? Even if I took a coptic course, unless u practice speaking it, then its POINTLESS... u'll never learn.
OK.. Archdeacon, u're not a potato, let me ask u: Can u hold a conversation with someone in Coptic and talk about the election of the US president in 2008??? Can u!!??
Teoi enhikanos means - "U are worthy" - now, the only way to remember that as a foreign language is if I used that term outside of the tasbeha. I.e. If i said to someone "oh.. teoi enhikanos matt!!". (for example). What's the chances or probability that Matt will not only understand, but he will be able to respond.. and what are the chances of even meeting someone else coptic whilst living in the middle of NOWHERE to even apply this verse.
And finally, if Teoi Enhikanos means "u are worthy" - what does AXIOS MEAN!? Cos, i thought i knew what that meant until I read this.
it was old, dirty and wouldn't hold any water. It still won't hold any water now - but it's much cleaner now than it was before."
I swear, if a monk did that to me, just to tell me "well.. its the same basket, but its cleaner",
i'd have him deported in a new york minute.
Why not just wash it if u want it cleaner???
Sure, if i spend the rest of my life in Church singing stuff I don't understand, well.. i guess its still better than going to a pub. Isn't it?? And better than ALL this is to sing something u do understand and pray from.
This is a hard situation! The words of the tasbeha are POWERFUL.. I mean, they are beautiful prayers.. when u read the meaning.. but u cannot sing them in English. It doesnt work. I heard what they did in the monastery in LA.. it was a brilliant effort, but it just didnt work...
THe idea, the thought of singing something without understanding is driving me crazy.. and its annoying as hell to go to Church, stand quiet and read the translation of what they are singing RATHER than actually sing. Its awful.
Another thing to prove that is take thok te ti gom, during holy week you say it so many times that at the end while you say it, you will know that gom means power, o o means glory, and so forth... Learning language takes pracice as you said, so maybe you're not doing enough of that...
Also, Coptic is the final stage of the Pharaonic language so yes it is a very important part of our Egyptian heritage. It used to be written in Hyroglyphic (which is not a language but an alphabet) but later on they started using the greek alphabet (+6 symbols) to write the coptic language, probably also because of the greek presence in egypt. It might not mean much to some people, but to me, using a language that my ancestors have used, knowing it is a derivitive from a language which was in use for thousands of years, and knowing also that until the 18th or 19th century there were still some people in upper Egypt who spoke coptic as their first language, knowing that upon the foundation of our church until now coptic has been used in liturgy.... knowing all that, I think it's a big deal and it adds a lot to the church experience...
I agree that prayer from the heart is the most important thing, but instead of running off to other churches, it's better to make a real effort to preserve and revive the coptic language, especially its use in hymns, which add a lot to their spirituality in my opinion..
God Bless
Please pray for me
I agree that prayer from the heart is the most important thing, but instead of running off to other churches, it's better to make a real effort to preserve and revive the coptic language, especially its use in hymns, which add a lot to their spirituality in my opinion..
Do you have any idea of the effort EVERYONE has to go through to preserve the Coptic language. I just get the feeling that it seems more of an effort to preserve the coptic language than actually benefitting from the coptic language and just praying.
Telling me also not to quit my Church for a French Catholic one over this is hard. Its really hard. I benefitted greatly whilst I was there.
Personally I haven't really enjoyed the catholic masses I have been to, with all due respect to the catholics, I have nothing against them, and I'm in no position to judge you for going to a catholic church...
However, for me personally I value this heritage very much and I think it's worth saving and preserving. I also don't see it as a threat to prayer or praise, but as an enrichment.
God Bless
Please pray for me
I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound hard, besides I was referring to the youth you mentioned who go to the protestant churches.
Personally I haven't really enjoyed the catholic masses I have been to, with all due respect to the catholics, I have nothing against them, and I'm in no position to judge you for going to a catholic church...
However, for me personally I value this heritage very much and I think it's worth saving and preserving. I also don't see it as a threat to prayer or praise, but as an enrichment.
God Bless
Please pray for me
Its just recently, i was teaching someone Agios Yestin. Then I realised ONE huge thing.
I didnt know what it meant. So, then I came to tasbeha.org and downloaded the meaning. Then i began again and taught the hymn.. but even whilst I was singing it, I NEEDED the translation page to help me understand what i was saying. (ok.. i know its a greek hymn, but still.... it could have been anything.. its the same story, different day). Its very odd singing something for a good 1 hour and not really know what it is your are saying, and doing that in spirit of "keeping our heritage".
As for the protestant churches, i can't blame them. As u all know, i did blame them at 1st... but now, i feel bad for judging them as I'm in the same situation as they were.
And no GodisLove, i'm not mad at u at all.. why should I be mad for? U have a very good point of view.
Sorry if i have repeated anything anyone has said, i didn't have time to read all the posts.
Its very dangerous to pray anything without understanding it. We had this lesson from Anba Raphael who refuses to say a verse in a song because of what it means to him. That's very wise. It means he's in fact praying... not just singing.
It seems like your idea is the best: we have to memorise the entire hymn in English or French before singing it. WOW.. the effort that is JY!!! Its enormous though...
Apenchoise - i generally understand without translation, but ANY hoss.. ANY ipsali, any Theotokia, forget it! I need to memorise the meaning!!!
Like I said, JY is absolutely correct here - i mean, u cannot learn Coptic as a language UNLESS u speak it. There's NO way. The best thing we can do is just memorise the entire translation for each and EVERY hymn.
What worries me is that it really becomes a song not a hymn on most occassions! The worst part of all of this is MANY times I attend the tasbeha with people who can barely read coptic and start to stutter and mis-pronounce words and they have no idea what they are saying. I said to one guy :"Look, i love Coptic, but why don't u do it in arabic. I won't sing with u, but I'll listen, as I cannot read arabic well". He said "No.. we have to do it in Coptic". I said "But do u understand what u are saying?" - he said "No.. i have no idea, but its a duty to do it in Coptic".
No.. look.. its not a duty. We have NO obligation to be loyal to a language to such an extent that it renders our spiritual life into nothing but simple repetition of musical notes. There is no prayer.
I attended tasbeha once with 2 Die-Hard Coptic mo3alims, the type u find here. Now, I hate the tasbeha in ENglish, but I asked to do it half in English. They refused.. and left. Now, they ended up swearing at me for it.
I'm not hurt, but - if they were praying during the tasbeha, would they have sworn at me afterwards??? I CANNOT... i can't. You all know me here, and I can tell u that if I prayed, it would be hard to go and do something wrong. So RIGHT after the 4th Hoss, I get sworn at (and I mean, SWORN AT BADLY!). Its ok.. they apologised etc... and everything's ok.. but that's not the issue. The issue is we're not praying. We're just singing really funky tunes we like without any prayer.
Like I said, JY is absolutely correct here - i mean, u cannot learn Coptic as a language UNLESS u speak it. There's NO way. The best thing we can do is just memorise the entire translation for each and EVERY hymn.
I KNOW latin, and so do many others, and I can assure you: we DON'T SPEAK it.
Speaking a language and using it everyday in a verbal way is highly important to learn the language and to master it, I won't disagree on that. But I disagree that that's an absolute condition to understanding the language. Again I say it takes time and effort but it's possible.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92169#msg92169 date=1215019840]
What worries me is that it really becomes a song not a hymn on most occassions! The worst part of all of this is MANY times I attend the tasbeha with people who can barely read coptic and start to stutter and mis-pronounce words and they have no idea what they are saying. I said to one guy :"Look, i love Coptic, but why don't u do it in arabic. I won't sing with u, but I'll listen, as I cannot read arabic well". He said "No.. we have to do it in Coptic". I said "But do u understand what u are saying?" - he said "No.. i have no idea, but its a duty to do it in Coptic".
No.. look.. its not a duty. We have NO obligation to be loyal to a language to such an extent that it renders our spiritual life into nothing but simple repetition of musical notes. There is no prayer.
I agree, our main concern shouldn't be the language but what we're actually saying and to Whom we say it. But, I think Coptic is a beautiful language and it carries special meaning to me and other copts, which is why I hope that we don't just take the easy way and do everything in the languages we already know, but that we make the effort to study coptic so that we don't say anything we don't understand for that wouldn't be useful at all. But I don't think coptic is dangerous to our spiritual lives though, as you claim,because if learned and studied well, coptic can only enrich our spiritual life or at least make singing praises and hymns more special and enjoyable.
God Bless
Please pray for me
You have studied latin as a language. All European languages are based on latin.. u can see commonality. Coptic is far from obvious to our daily colloquial european languages.
Who can honestly take a degree in Coptology JUST to pray?? I mean, we have other things to do like reading homilies, the fathers, patristics, our Bible... the agpeya.. and above all that now to learn a language.
Sure, give me 3 years studying Coptic at degree level or A-Level, and I'll be pretty good. We don't have that luxury.
There is another alternative.
That is arabic.
Its easier to improve one's arabic than it is to improve one's Coptic, even though arabic is harder, its more accessible, and its a language that we still have some association with, therefore, when we hear praise, or worship or hymns in arabic, we spend less time trying to translate it, and more time using it to worship.
Tasbeha.org have the tasbeha in arabic from St.George's Church (shoubra). They've managed to really make it work. Its way better in arabic than it is in English.
This, I can do. Praying in arabic is more feasible than in Coptic.
Even, we had a priest once that REFUSED categorically to pray in Coptic. He didnt like the idea of praying in a language that no one understood. I never saw his point up until now.
Frankly, this is the best solution because Arabic works well with the Coptic tunes. Moreover, it even rhymns!!
My dear friend Godislove,
You have studied latin as a language. All European languages are based on latin.. u can see commonality. Coptic is far from obvious to our daily colloquial european languages.
Who can honestly take a degree in Coptology JUST to pray?? I mean, we have other things to do like reading homilies, the fathers, patristics, our Bible... the agpeya.. and above all that now to learn a language.
Sure, give me 3 years studying Coptic at degree level or A-Level, and I'll be pretty good. We don't have that luxury.
I understand that Latin might be easier for someone who knows french, but my point was that you don't have to speak a language to study it and to know it well. (Besides not all languages in Europe are based on latin, many languages (eng, german, dutch, etc. are germanic languages)
I never said you had to go get a degree in Coptology, I'm just saying that it's possible for one to know the coptic language enough to understand the words of the hymns as they're said, with plenty of exercise and use of course.
The reason why I think we should keep coptic in the coptic church is a esthetic (I think coptic is a beautiful language) and a sentimental (heritage and history) reason. I wouldn't call it practical, therefor, if one doesn't appereciate the coptic language in itself, and one only seeks practicality then I would say arabic would do it...
I have nothing against using arabic in liturgy, especially in prayers, but I don't think we should sacrifice the coptic language for the sake of comfort to the majority of the people.
But I respect the fact that some might not care about the coptic language and prefer to have everything in arabic, or another language for that matter...
God Bless
Please pray for me
JY,
There is another alternative.
That is arabic.
Its easier to improve one's arabic than it is to improve one's Coptic, even though arabic is harder, its more accessible, and its a language that we still have some association with, therefore, when we hear praise, or worship or hymns in arabic, we spend less time trying to translate it, and more time using it to worship.
Tasbeha.org have the tasbeha in arabic from St.George's Church (shoubra). They've managed to really make it work. Its way better in arabic than it is in English.
This, I can do. Praying in arabic is more feasible than in Coptic.
Even, we had a priest once that REFUSED categorically to pray in Coptic. He didnt like the idea of praying in a language that no one understood. I never saw his point up until now.
Frankly, this is the best solution because Arabic works well with the Coptic tunes. Moreover, it even rhymns!!
Yes this is for sure an option, but not one all would be happy with. I know many American raised copts who either can't stand arabic or refuse to learn it. they feel its not their language and that they aren't attached to it at all. This is not the best suggestion in my opinion. Its MUCH easier to learn coptic than arabic. MUCH easier. Most letters look close to english or other letters from various languages. Coptic really isn't that hard. It just takes time and patience. Yes arabic is a language i'm sure most of us understand but i still see no reason why what i suggest isn't plausible. Nobody has to get a degree in this, just a general understanding of the language. its very simple really.
We have Coptic TV channels (that are in Arabic), we have TV channels that are religious - in arabic. How can u practice Coptic JY?
JY, the words in Coptic.. what do they mean to u.
Let me explain.
We are both English speakers - yes?? U agree?? This means that the words of a language (English in this case) has meaning to us. For example.. let's say I said to u (as a friend!) : "JY, you're crazy!".
Now, in English, u would know very well that the term "crazy" does not mean "psychologically disturbed" - u know it means that u've done or behaved in a way that's different, not necessarily in a bad way at all. Now, if u were Egyptian, and raised in Egypt, and u didnt think in English; if I said to u "JY, u are magnoon" - all of a sudden, it will not become light hearted chit chat. U'll probably give me a lecture about being respectful. U see? In arabic, the word magnoon holds a different weighting / meaning than the english "crazy".
Likewise, what do Coptic words "mean" to u? U do not "think" in Coptic. U will never think in Coptic. I think in both French and English and a bit of arabic.. but NEVER Coptic.
It will result in the same thing: U are learning Coptic for a wrong reason: because you hate Arabic. But, regardless of whether u love or hate a language, its about worship, not about being cool..
"Its cool to pray in Coptic, because Coptic is our heretage" - yes.. ok.. but now we're learning Coptic because its for our heretage.. not that we live and THINK in this language.
Its when u begin to "THINK" in Coptic that u will end up praying in Coptic, as the words will hold a certain meaning to us.
TeoiEnhikanos means u are worthy.. Right?
Axios means u are worthy? Right?
But to a Coptic speaker, one will mean more worthy or be different than the other, the same way the subtility in English makes all the difference between how we understand.
Tell me JY. If Teoi en hikanos means u are worthy, and Axios means u are worthy, what's the difference?? U see?? we are only learning the meaning.. not the language.. we cannot distinguish exactly the correct meaning.
Look at the example of Agios Yestin.. Its a perfect example. Here we have people singing in a language they do NOT understand, and it turns out its biblically incorrect. But because its in an ancient language, it makes it Orthodox enough for us to sing it!!! Please... think people.
I feel I'm wasting time TRYING to be Orthodox rather than just praying and worshipping God.
I have NO association with the Arabic language, but I taught myself how to read JUST to sing with the Church during Khiahk. I'm not sure whether u know, but nearly all the alhan in Kiahk is in arabic (the major ones).
I'd sit down, start reading... and I'd ask my parents what each word meant from the Daleel Book. And the good thing is this: My parents MAY have used or will use these words from time to time during conversation with each other. So, hearing the words in different contexts in social life helps build my understanding and weighting of the words of that language.
When I say "Weighting" i mean "sense of". For example. We say in arabic that "Christ Fadana". Great.
So, then I hear my parents tell me "Son, Fadak" - when I break something.. so now the verb "Fadana" has new sense to me. When we say that Christ "Fadana" 3ala el saleeb, I know very well from its usage in colloquial arabic what the sense of this word is.
I WILL never have a sense of "words" in Coptic. Axios and Teoi en hikanos if BOTH are translated as "u are worthy" to me it means u are worthy. OK... so one means u are "more worthy".. but.. where then is Axios in that phrase?? See??
Do I have time to understand the reason why Axios is not used in TeoiEnhikanos?? Do i have time to understand if axios is even Coptic/Bohairic/Afrangy/Latinee/Sa3eedi ???? I just want to pray.
Being Coptic Orthodox is MORE than a language. Our heritage is ORTHODOXY, of the Oriental kind. Our dogma's our creed, or Agpeya..
Its a shame that Coptic has died from society. Its a huge shame. That's why i would love for us to be One with the Greek Church - it may help revive our own language, as well as help us know more Greek to understand and appreciate our alhan better.
Why are u also attached to Coptic, if our own alhan that we sing is also in Greek!!!!
Why not learn Greek!??
This is endless... my suggestion is just to pray. Pray!!
Look how much we talk about the "Power of Prayer" On tasbeha.org, and all we end up doing is talking about the futile power of the Coptic language - and is this dangerous for us?? I think it is, because it takes us from prayer and leads us into being parrots .. singing things we have no understanding of. That's my 2 cents.
And I'm so worried about this.
As far as "And finally, if Teoi Enhikanos means "u are worthy" - what does AXIOS MEAN!?": Axios is 'worthy' in Greek.
Perhaps "Teoi Enhikanos" is authentic Coptic, whereas hymns with Axios in them have a Greek origin, or are a translation from a corresponding Greek hymn?
Why kill off your own language? It still serves its purpose...God hears it and honors it as He does all other languages. We should just have an open mind and learn the language, as the New Testament scholars learn Greek.
And as a matter of fact, I can attest to Coptic being easier to learn than Arabic. I picked up how to read Coptic in a matter of 2 months. I still have a hard time reading Arabic, and I have been trying to learn that for quite a bit longer.
All of what you're saying is valid but a bit misplaced. I agreed with you in the sense that its dangerous to pray without understanding, but i for sure do not want to throw this amazing language out. You do not have to be able to speak coptic to understand it for liturgical use. Yes it would be awsome if you did, but thats not logical either. Us joining the greek church would also be irrelavent so i don't even know why that would be a suggestion regardless of the case. The greek church has its own traditions why should we adopt them?
Who told you I hate arabic?? I think its a very nice language and is very useful and I am actually quite fluent in it and am working on reading it, this whole time I've been speaking practically. You bring up Teoi Enhikanos to be meaning you are worthy, but you have to realize as Matt said that Axios is greek and is also just one word meaning worthy. Teoi Enhikanos roughly translated is You are more worthy, you cannot compare the two. I have more to say but i don't have time to right it. if nobody posts after me i will edit this one and add what i would like to say
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
- Coptic is our language, our original one and huge part of our heritage. keeping is one of the most important things we have to practice, being attached to almost allll our services and rites, not fully dogmatic as our communion with our sister churchs. because what separates us all, Orthodox churchs, is our heritage, being coptic = egyptian, armenian, greek...etc.
Learning Coptic as a language is the best thing to do. so i easily say this if you hav the time to learn coptic as a language, then do so.
the language is not as hard to learn. comparing it to arabic is meaningless because the arabic you think is right, is not fully close to the real arabic. there are to much arabic dialects, including our most modern accent, the Egyptian one.
Taking Coptic to be a problem in praying, to me personally, I don’t like when to much people doing that. Because all of our Coptic text is in fact translated. you can’t have the excuse of not understanding the language that is being said.
When it comes to long hymns, you have to consider the original language of the tune. Period. It’s that easy. ALL musicians believe that and fully support it. That’s speaking hymn wise.
Another thing with Coptic that I always concentrate at is the fact that there are many other things that are in Coptic we can always get to use, especially when you do many things with all 3 languages like I do.
People don’t think about Coptic, especially us copts. We never care because you’d never use the language in real life. Everyone would start speaking about that it’s our heritage…etc. but what you have to consider here is that not all people have the time to do so. “Not all are teachers, not all are deacons, not all are priests or bishops…etc” people live as close they can become to God.
Coptic, when used in the Passion Week, (Psalms etc) is ideal (as a matter of fact) simply because whilst someone is singing the Psalm, u can obviously medidate on its meaning in English/French/Gujarati or whatever translation u have.
The problem is the tasbeha, or other alhan. This u cannot. THere is no time to do so.
I'm not interested in doing away with the Coptic language. That's not my problem. My problem is that holding onto Coptic to the extent that it prevents us from actually praying is my problem.
Why is it u are all so attached to Coptic, when we have so much Greek in our Church?? Shall we get rid of that and replace it with Coptic?? What is this?? its JUST a language!!
You say its our heritage, but then so is burying our saints in Pyramids and mummfying them. Why don't we still do this? If u are so attached to your heritage, is this not also our heritage?? The Pyramids? Are we not the "true" Pharaonic descendents??? The COptic church should then build a pyramid and bury its dead there (if u really want to be a diehard Copt).
Look, I just want to pray, and its IMPOSSIBLE with Coptic.
THe solution of many of you was to learn Coptic?? Do u think its fair to impose this on us?? Its JUST a language that's used to help us pray. If the result or objective of the language is to help us communicate with God, then right now, in this point of time, its actually STOPPING us from Communicating.. we sing things we only understand from translated texts. And as I mentioned, we cannot sing and read a translated text at the same time. We are not worshipping at that time, we are understanding what is being sung. THis renders us "observers" of worshipping not participators in worshipping.
Even we have Greek in our CHurch that we hardly understand.
WHo has time to learn a language that is only used in a Church??
Even the Greek songs we have are erroneous and the Greeks do not even understand them totally.
Like I said, the problem is praying. Prayer is communicating with God. I cannot communicate to God in a language that is foreign to me. PERIOD!! And doing so, I feel, can be dangerous. We end up spiritually dead.
Look, the Pope once made a joke about this, and actually, its a very serious comment he made. He said :"When u take a small deacon, a young man and teach him Coptic and all the marradaat in the Church, he doesn't understand or know know what they mean, so then u ask him 'do u know what it means habibi?' and he'll tell u 'no.. i have no idea, bas the shoghlana me7tagha' (its a job requirement).'
Basically, i do not understand what I'm doing or saying in Coptic, but i do it anyway, because its a job requirement.
Everyone laughed when H.H said this.. even me because I felt i could relate to what he was saying. But now, its not funny anymore. We are not eating or satisfying our spiritual thirst when we do not understand what we are doing... it gets to be parrotic. And for small kids, I'm so worried about them singing stuff in Coptic that they do not understand either. We are so good, when we are young, in learning new things. We hear it, memorise it, and say it. But - what is the effect on them by not knowing or associating themselves with the meaning of what they are saying????
Are they growing???
Do they understand???
If coptic is used in a Church as part of the prayer, and prayer is meant to be communicating with God, then we are communicating with God in a language we do not understand. This is sad.
You want to hold onto Coptic? U want us to learn it?? as a language???? That's very noble. But, its use is prayer. Not for a job. I feel that if its to pray to God, I know words much better in French / English / Arabic to use this to pray from.
What if someone was dying and I wanted to pray for them?? What if it was serious?? Do u expect me to go and pray in Coptic and find the words that I need to build a sentence to ask God to heal this person????
THe 1st thing that God gave His Apostles was the ability to speak in Foreign languages. To communicate with people according to their knowledge. So that they may preach to them in their own languages. Did God ask them to teach the nations Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek so that they can know His words and understand perfectly the events of His Passion because everything was written in these languages???
Guys, we're losing the plot here by being SO attached to a language that we waste time in learning something we do not need!! Its purpose was to help us pray??? Well its now STOPPING us from praying!!!
Just a side note, axios is greek not coptic :P
And how would I know that Matt? lol. I just read the english text next to it.
And if its greek, then why are we so worried about bringing in English hymns if we've allowed Greek in our CHurch!? (and we are NOT greek!).
As far as I know, and please someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but Greek did play an important part in our Church, but I think in an oecumenical way only. Greek was a popular language at the time, so the essential parts of the mass had to be said in Greek - not Coptic so that everyone could understand.
This applied to the most sacred parts of the mass. (as far as I know).
But.. its not our heritage. Our heritage is NOT language - we are NOT a country, we are a Church. A Christian denomination. A Church never had its own language, otherwise Christ would never given His Apostles the gift of preaching in tongues. He'd have insisted that we all learn ONE language (and that would have been the language of the Church).
The language does not make up the Church. Our heritage is our patrology, our doctrines, our saints, our patriarchs.. Coptic is just a language.
The fact that Coptic is dying out and that Greek is still living, surely that should make u feel a tad bit better?? U know.. its not sooooooo bad - is it?
French is the language of France
English is the language of England
Dutch is the language of Dutch people lol
But the Coptic language was the language of Egypt at a certain period of time. This was replaced with arabic. Its just a language!! It has no impact on our orthodoxy, our rites. We are independent of language!! What we are not independent of is "meaning". We cannot start to change meaning from one thing to another.. this is wrong. But when we pray in Coptic.. there is NO MEANING. It means nothing to the most of us. Its just greek looking letters that rhymn very well when sung at a very high tempo.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jmzxez10j9y
I hope this will help you.
pray for me.