Guys do you think that Ibrahim ayad knows every single lahn in the church??

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  • [quote author=mmbotrous link=topic=4777.msg81630#msg81630 date=1201750330]
    just curious... the liturgy by abouna mettias .. St. Cyril liturgy, I couldn't find it... could someone post a link.. tasbeha.org, or if its not here.. another site?

    Thanks


    hmmm....this is TASBEHA.ORG. here is it:

    Divine Liturgies / Higher Institute of Coptic Studies, Liturgy of St. Cyril in Coptic
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=4777.msg65262#msg65262 date=1166737634]
    [quote author=jydeacon link=board=2;threadid=4777;start=15#msg65261 date=1166734065]
    well then how is st. cyril's liturgy lost we have a recording of it here on tasbeha and i have listened to it many times.


    ok there is a lot fo conterversty about that until this day. there is only 2 hymns that are recovered from the litrugy. and these are recorded by trustable sources. now the one that is here ont tasbeha.org is recorded by Fr. Mettias which is not really a source according to what i have learned. he is just not the trustable source that should be trusted in these stuff. there is a big long topic about this on coptichymns.net that you can check.

    the litrugy mostly "etrakeeb" on St. Gregory's litrugy. to make it clear to you that the whole idea of the litrugy is wrong, one simple way to explain this is:-- if you have a a suit that have pants that have a broken zipper. you can easliy get a new zipper and fix it, rit.....but if you have a zipper, can you get a whole suit and some how attached to the zipper....of course not.
    same here. there is only two hymns that are still left from the old original litrugy. now can you go get the text and make a whole litrugy upon on those two hymns. noooo....

    i know the liturgy is famous because abouna's voice is nice. i personaly love his voice. but it's not always according to the voice.


    is it possible any of the really old priests know the tune?
  • [quote author=danny_iki link=topic=4777.msg81644#msg81644 date=1201775290]
    is it possible any of the really old priests know the tune?


    not really.....these things were more learned my ma'allemin.....but none knew except the ones we have from muallem tawfik. also they searched ENOUGH and couldn't find any. what else can u do?!!
  • Mina, I resent the fact that you think Albeir Mikhail is not a good source. I believe him to be the best source compared to everyone else. The effort he goes into with his research is beyond anything I have heard or seen. He has a special zeal to try to rend every single hymn in the church as accurate as possible, if that is an unreliable source then what is considered reliable?
    GB
    Tony
  • [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=4777.msg81662#msg81662 date=1201812806]
    Mina, I resent the fact that you think Albeir Mikhail is not a good source. I believe him to be the best source compared to everyone else. The effort he goes into with his research is beyond anything I have heard or seen. He has a special zeal to try to rend every single hymn in the church as accurate as possible, if that is an unreliable source then what is considered reliable?
    GB
    Tony


    having a FULL BOOK with everything in it doesn't make it the first source. that to most of the people is the most reliable....but not to mee....or those who lead me of doing things. am not saying he's a bad source, just not my primary source.

    i don't have anything against him either....i speak to him about many things concerning hymns but again, he's not my primary source.
  • [quote author=danny_iki link=topic=4777.msg81644#msg81644 date=1201775290]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=4777.msg65262#msg65262 date=1166737634]
    [quote author=jydeacon link=board=2;threadid=4777;start=15#msg65261 date=1166734065]
    well then how is st. cyril's liturgy lost we have a recording of it here on tasbeha and i have listened to it many times.


    ok there is a lot fo conterversty about that until this day. there is only 2 hymns that are recovered from the litrugy. and these are recorded by trustable sources. now the one that is here ont tasbeha.org is recorded by Fr. Mettias which is not really a source according to what i have learned. he is just not the trustable source that should be trusted in these stuff. there is a big long topic about this on coptichymns.net that you can check.

    the litrugy mostly "etrakeeb" on St. Gregory's litrugy. to make it clear to you that the whole idea of the litrugy is wrong, one simple way to explain this is:-- if you have a a suit that have pants that have a broken zipper. you can easliy get a new zipper and fix it, rit.....but if you have a zipper, can you get a whole suit and some how attached to the zipper....of course not.
    same here. there is only two hymns that are still left from the old original litrugy. now can you go get the text and make a whole litrugy upon on those two hymns. noooo....

    i know the liturgy is famous because abouna's voice is nice. i personaly love his voice. but it's not always according to the voice.


    is it possible any of the really old priests know the tune?


    There are more than just 2 tunes that exist. There are 5. [coptic]Nenio] nem nen`cnyou[/coptic], [coptic]Ou, ou] je anon[/coptic], [coptic]Ouoh nai nem[/coptic], [coptic]Ni;ucia[/coptic], and [coptic]Vnou] vyetafjwr[/coptic]. Some of these are found in the other liturgies, but still these tunes do exist.
  • [quote author=David_the_King link=topic=4777.msg81668#msg81668 date=1201817572]
    There are more than just 2 tunes that exist. There are 5. [coptic]Nenio] nem nen`cnyou[/coptic], [coptic]Ou, ou] je anon[/coptic], [coptic]Ouoh nai nem[/coptic], [coptic]Ni;ucia[/coptic], and [coptic]Vnou] vyetafjwr[/coptic]. Some of these are found in the other liturgies, but still these tunes do exist.


    literally yes. ur right. but those are the only ones. that's it.
  • True, but he went through tons and tons of research. And Ragheb Moftah trusted him too. And he asked everyone, as is said on the copticheritage.org video, that a lot of people agreed with him, but they will not show any outward support for him. It sounds amazing, and as of now, it is the only thing we have.
  • [quote author=David_the_King link=topic=4777.msg81670#msg81670 date=1201818529]
    True, but he went through tons and tons of research. And Ragheb Moftah trusted him too. And he asked everyone, as is said on the copticheritage.org video, that a lot of people agreed with him, but they will not show any outward support for him. It sounds amazing, and as of now, it is the only thing we have.


    ya habibi we are not against that. but like i said and HE HIMSELF said in the video, he took the tunes from St. Gregory's and St. Basil's.

    our discussion here is NOT it is wrong or right, but rather the source of this. no one said anything against him in this thread, even WB who strongly disagrees with what he did....it's just that truth must be said....and that doesn't mean it was wrong.


    btw David_the_King, since you're a webmaster on coptichymn.net, can i retrieve a user name and password that i signed up for a longg time ago. i have the email, but forgot the username and password???
  • But again, it is a tough task to even put the Gregorian on the Cyrillian. Regardless of anything, he did spend a lot of time and looked at the meaning and put it according. For the litanies, he just took them from Basillian because they have the same intention, you know.

    PS email me ur info, and ill get back to u
  • Mina,

    When i said research, i was not talking about the deacon service book. I was talking about the research that is gone into finding the correct way of saying a particular hymn. The work and analyzing that is underwent when they are unable to find a recording from muallem mikhail is very thorough and that is something that should not be taken lightly. Everything that he recorded is backed up by a primary source.

    GB
    Tony
  • [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=4777.msg81676#msg81676 date=1201823732]
    Mina,

    When i said research, i was not talking about the deacon service book. I was talking about the research that is gone into finding the correct way of saying a particular hymn. The work and analyzing that is underwent when they are unable to find a recording from muallem mikhail is very thorough and that is something that should not be taken lightly. Everything that he recorded is backed up by a primary source.


    oh...about alhan. well that doesn't make much diffrence to me or my leaders. again, i stand to my list of sources from my teachers:

    First comes HICS
    than you have muallem Farag
    Muallem Sadek,
    Muallem Tawfik (very diffrent stuff),
    Muallem Faheem (very very diffrent but the only one who recorded the bigest number the hymns)
    than you have muallem Ibrahim and Gad, and others.

    I am not going to change what i know becuase of a new research. if i do a better research than him, will he and ALL of HCOC change. NO.....same here. and we already know that there is NO wrong or right hymns except if they are very clear.

    [quote author=David_the_King link=topic=4777.msg81674#msg81674 date=1201820387]
    But again, it is a tough task to even put the Gregorian on the Cyrillian. Regardless of anything, he did spend a lot of time and looked at the meaning and put it according. For the litanies, he just took them from Basillian because they have the same intention, you know.


    same idea. yes it's tough to do that, and i respect for even trying and coming out with this nice liturgy....but this also goes with what i said before.
  • I am pretty sure that Ibrahim Ayad does not know every single hymn in the Church. I mean, it is just too much for someone to be able to retain. Alhan would have to be EVERYTHING that is in his brain (which I doubt). So, I would definitely think that people who have been archdeacons the longest know plenty more hymns than Ibrahim Ayad. So, I agree with Mina, just stick with the oldies, the more trustable people that were closer to the apostolic times than we are now.
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=4777.msg81688#msg81688 date=1201846699]
    I am pretty sure that Ibrahim Ayad does not know every single hymn in the Church. I mean, it is just too much for someone to be able to retain. Alhan would have to be EVERYTHING that is in his brain (which I doubt). So, I would definitely think that people who have been archdeacons the longest know plenty more hymns than Ibrahim Ayad. So, I agree with Mina, just stick with the oldies, the more trustable people that were closer to the apostolic times than we are now.


    well it's a little different. first, as i think i've said in this post before or another, Ibrahim Ayad is just an Oghnostos.....but that doesn't effect him in beeing a muallem. he knows a lot more than you'de think and he still is learning. as to talking about other sources, most of them didn't record everything so u don't always rely on "oldies" either. also you'd NEVER, NVER find someone close to the apostalic times. during those time there was no specific coptic hymns as you have now. that's why we Muallem Mikhael's recording are a big deal cuz they were the most full collection of hymns in ONE place. but not all.

    what am trying to get to is that no one knows everything.
  • Mina,

    The church claims, atleast the clergy i know, is that the number one source to follow is muallem mikhail el kabeer. And this makes since since he is the teacher that pope kirollos the 5th appointed to record the hymns of the church so they would not become extinct. He is the one who taught every single person you just mentioned in your list of people who you deem reliable. So the goal is to be as close and faithful to what muallem mikhail taught so we would not change the hymns. Who are we to change the things that have been passed down to us? The goal of HCOC is to find all recordings of muallem mikhail and record it just like him and if they dont have a recording from him, they go to his disciples, and if they cant find it from them, they go to other disciples. But they dont just go to anyone, there is research before a decision is made as to which is considered the most accurate. I think you can find more about this in this forum...you find out a lot of stuff...: http://copticheritage.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1012&highlight=hcoc&sid=1a4565a93508d628d9dce4d14a15d7b3

    GB
    Tony
  • [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=4777.msg81693#msg81693 date=1201850790]
    Mina,

    The church claims, atleast the clergy i know, is that the number one source to follow is muallem mikhail el kabeer. And this makes since since he is the teacher that pope kirollos the 5th appointed to record the hymns of the church so they would not become extinct. He is the one who taught every single person you just mentioned in your list of people who you deem reliable. So the goal is to be as close and faithful to what muallem mikhail taught so we would not change the hymns. Who are we to change the things that have been passed down to us? The goal of HCOC is to find all recordings of muallem mikhail and record it just like him and if they dont have a recording from him, they go to his disciples, and if they cant find it from them, they go to other disciples. But they dont just go to anyone, there is research before a decision is made as to which is considered the most accurate. I think you can find more about this in this forum...you find out a lot of stuff...: http://copticheritage.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1012&highlight=hcoc&sid=1a4565a93508d628d9dce4d14a15d7b3

    GB
    Tony


    do you know how hard is it to even listen to Muallem Mikhael. you think it would be easy for us to learn.....but wait don't answer to this with out considering HICS that were created by Muallem Miakhel and led and directed mostly by Muallem Sadek (as he himself considers to be his greatest accomplishment). than if there is HICS, why would there be HCOC recording the same thing. you can't tell me you're opposing HICS cuz they are a little different even thoo they were in fact created by HIM.

    the disciples of muallem miakhel themselves did the same things in changing some things but the ORIGIN and the main structure of hymns that they learned from muallem Mikhael are in fact the same. you're telling me that tuning a paragraph in the sunday thetokeia a little diffrent is WRONG??!!! that's why i don't blame Ibrahim Ayad for anything except cuz of his multiple rites recordings...but not his tuning to words.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=4777.msg81694#msg81694 date=1201851900]
    [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=4777.msg81693#msg81693 date=1201850790]
    Mina,

    The church claims, atleast the clergy i know, is that the number one source to follow is muallem mikhail el kabeer. And this makes since since he is the teacher that pope kirollos the 5th appointed to record the hymns of the church so they would not become extinct. He is the one who taught every single person you just mentioned in your list of people who you deem reliable. So the goal is to be as close and faithful to what muallem mikhail taught so we would not change the hymns. Who are we to change the things that have been passed down to us? The goal of HCOC is to find all recordings of muallem mikhail and record it just like him and if they dont have a recording from him, they go to his disciples, and if they cant find it from them, they go to other disciples. But they dont just go to anyone, there is research before a decision is made as to which is considered the most accurate. I think you can find more about this in this forum...you find out a lot of stuff...: http://copticheritage.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1012&highlight=hcoc&sid=1a4565a93508d628d9dce4d14a15d7b3

    GB
    Tony


    do you know how hard is it to even listen to Muallem Mikhael. you think it would be easy for us to learn.....but wait don't answer to this with out considering HICS that were created by Muallem Miakhel and led and directed mostly by Muallem Sadek (as he himself considers to be his greatest accomplishment). than if there is HICS, why would there be HCOC recording the same thing. you can't tell me you're opposing HICS cuz they are a little different even thoo they were in fact created by HIM.

    the disciples of muallem miakhel themselves did the same things in changing some things but the ORIGIN and the main structure of hymns that they learned from muallem Mikhael are in fact the same. you're telling me that tuning a paragraph in the sunday thetokeia a little diffrent is WRONG??!!! that's why i don't blame Ibrahim Ayad for anything except cuz of his multiple rites recordings...but not his tuning to words.


    I strongly recommend you read the link i just sent you, and i know you didnt read it because of the remarks you are making. The problem with HICS is that, even though it was taught by muallem mikhail's disciple muallem sadek and farag it doesnt mean that they taught the hymns the same way. I can give you a good example: the hymn "Te epistoli" was changed by muallem sadek- he was the only one who changed the way the hymn was said and he taught it to the choir. There are many cases where some of his disciples changed the hymns- and Dr. Moftah didnt know hymns very well so he brought other teachers to teach the choir and in many cases they differ from muallem mikhail....that is why there needs to be research so that we can find what is to be an "accurate" rendition of the hymn. The reason why i care is because i take my service seriuosly, and i dont like it when people change the hymns. And the beauty of HCOC is that you dont have to listen to all of muallem mikhail's to learn from him.....just take the classes! I was skeptical at first too about how close albeir was teaching according to muallem mikhail, but that all the changed the second i heard the recording of muallem mikhail's lahn "So" and then i listened to how albeir taught the hymn and it was almost exactly like muallem mikhail- and no one except the muallem himself and HCOC recorded the entirety of this hymn! You are right, Muallem mikhail was the first instructor for HICS but muallem sadek/ farag taught them most of the hymns and because some of the hymns they taught were not like muallem mikhail, we must do a research to find what is to believed as "accurate." The whole idea behind HCOC is to find the most accurate recordings.....also HICS is incomplete.

    GB
    Tony
  • [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=4777.msg81695#msg81695 date=1201852653]
    I strongly recommend you read the link i just sent you, and i know you didnt read it because of the remarks you are making. The problem with HICS is that, even though it was taught by muallem mikhail's disciple muallem sadek and farag it doesnt mean that they taught the hymns the same way. I can give you a good example: the hymn "Te epistoli" was changed by muallem sadek- he was the only one who changed the way the hymn was said and he taught it to the choir. There are many cases where some of his disciples changed the hymns- and Dr. Moftah didnt know hymns very well so he brought other teachers to teach the choir and in many cases they differ from muallem mikhail....that is why there needs to be research so that we can find what is to be an "accurate" rendition of the hymn. The reason why i care is because i take my service seriuosly, and i dont like it when people change the hymns. And the beauty of HCOC is that you dont have to listen to all of muallem mikhail's to learn from him.....just take the classes! I was skeptical at first too about how close albeir was teaching according to muallem mikhail, but that all the changed the second i heard the recording of muallem mikhail's lahn "So" and then i listened to how albeir taught the hymn and it was almost exactly like muallem mikhail- and no one except the muallem himself and HCOC recorded the entirety of this hymn! You are right, Muallem mikhail was the first instructor for HICS but muallem sadek/ farag taught them most of the hymns and because some of the hymns they taught were not like muallem mikhail, we must do a research to find what is to believed as "accurate." The whole idea behind HCOC is to find the most accurate recordings.....also HICS is incomplete.


    yes i didn't read it and am not going to......

    Muallem Mikhael taught his disciples and trusted them. he even told muallem Sadek to NOT teach any else these hymns. If Muallem Mikhael trusted them to run HICS to unify the hymns, even thoo they are not similar to his, than that's it. we than ought to trust his decesion. that's a final.

    since HICS is not full than record what they didn't and perfect them but don't cuz MORE confusion and record the same things AGAIN.

    am sorry Tony but i am a realistic person. by having another recording just brings more confusion to what we allready have. and it will just harder for the deacons especially beginners.

    having knowledge, which i guess Albair have, is not always good for the rest of the ppl, in connection to what we already have.
  • I just want to make a small comment on what your wrote. Muallem mikhail trusted his disciples to teach these hymns yes, but that was assuming that they would not change, which they did! Also, i dont think you understand what they are doing...they are not duplicating everything the HICS did, the HCOC are strictly researched base. It is obvious the HICS was not always consistent with muallem mikhail, so the job of HCOC is to RESEARCH and to look for what seems to be the way muallem mikhail taught the hymn. Second of all, there are some hymns that muallem mikhail did not know. The great muallem himself learned "apetjeek evol" from an old woman in elminya-this is according to Fr. metias nasr. So he was still in search for hymns that he did not know, that was his job-to find and record the hymns of the church. HCOC also tries to find recordings of hymns that have not been known to the public. I dont really see any confusion if you just follow one source-the source that we are supposed to follow...and if that is too hard, learn from the choir or the classes online! There is not much more to it really. If deacons are to lazy to "adjust" what they know to what is the correct way, than that is a weakness on their behalf. The hymns of our church are a huge part of the taqs or "rites" in our church and they should not be taken lightly mina..

    GB
    Tony
  • [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=4777.msg81708#msg81708 date=1201893415]
    I just want to make a small comment on what your wrote. Muallem mikhail trusted his disciples to teach these hymns yes, but that was assuming that they would not change, which they did! Also, i dont think you understand what they are doing...they are not duplicating everything the HICS did, the HCOC are strictly researched base. It is obvious the HICS was not always consistent with muallem mikhail, so the job of HCOC is to RESEARCH and to look for what seems to be the way muallem mikhail taught the hymn. Second of all, there are some hymns that muallem mikhail did not know. The great muallem himself learned "apetjeek evol" from an old woman in elminya-this is according to Fr. metias nasr. So he was still in search for hymns that he did not know, that was his job-to find and record the hymns of the church. HCOC also tries to find recordings of hymns that have not been known to the public.

    now this is what i personnally HATE....takeing this with a great zeal that just sometimes gets you somewhere where you would want according to your zeal.....am not saying to take it lightly but in the same time not with to much zeal.

    i don't think assumtion have any position here. he trusted them and that's it. let's maybe talk numbers.....HICS when recorded most of their hymns, they were groups of like atleast 60 70 deacon. and i think all of them saying in voice, that's enough to show that is the best way to say it. HCOC have not enough deacons to reach that number....

    you wanna talk about research. ok than. we have muallem Mikhael hymns, if we choose to hear them than we will. but the main point of research should be which way to say it best, in a group. and of course we agree on the fact that Muallem Mikhael didn't record everything.

    for some reason tony u tend what i said before:
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=4777.msg81694#msg81694 date=1201851900]
    the disciples of muallem miakhel themselves did the same things in changing some things but the ORIGIN and the main structure of hymns that they learned from muallem Mikhael are in fact the same. you're telling me that tuning a paragraph in the sunday thetokeia a little diffrent is WRONG??!!!

    i think it explains itslef.

    I dont really see any confusion if you just follow one source-the source that we are supposed to follow...and if that is too hard, learn from the choir or the classes online! There is not much more to it really. If deacons are to lazy to "adjust" what they know to what is the correct way, than that is a weakness on their behalf. The hymns of our church are a huge part of the taqs or "rites" in our church and they should not be taken lightly mina..

    why should deacons "adjust" what they know if it's NOT WRONG. like what we agreed to before is that there is NO WRONG WAY except if it's just so different.

    am sorry Tony but i am a very conservative person and i refuse to easly change something that i am doing if there is nothing wrong with what am doing....and since that i can define what am i doing, that that makes it right.....again, i don't accept change easily for small reasons that will just create other problems around.
  • I think this is a typical argument between sides. Tony, he will not change, and Mina, Tony will not change. Just both of you stick to what you believe and just love God with all your hearts. Don't let technicalities to keep you from praising God. None of you will budge, so respect the other person's position.
  • [quote author=David_the_King link=topic=4777.msg81722#msg81722 date=1201906168]
    I think this is a typical argument between sides. Tony, he will not change, and Mina, Tony will not change. Just both of you stick to what you believe and just love God with all your hearts. Don't let technicalities to keep you from praising God. None of you will budge, so respect the other person's position.


    i guess that is the best thing to do nowadays.....but i think the main point of this argument is defining ur views. both are not wrong.....they're just not the same.
  • I respect mina's decision, we each have our opinion on the matter....but the most important thing is that we love God and we are dedicated to this service.

    GB
    Tony
  • Tony and Mina,
    The most important thing is that you are both praying to God. God doesn't care about how you pray, He just cares that you are at least trying to pray, because it is the thought that counts!!!
  • [quote author=aem581 link=topic=4777.msg81727#msg81727 date=1201908752]
    Tony and Mina,
    The most important thing is that you are both praying to God. God doesn't care about how you pray, He just cares that you are at least trying to pray, because it is the thought that counts!!!


    well you're in this concept of what me and Tony are talking...which like i said before is not a big deal.
    but i don't think GOD doesn't care about how you pray....atleast not fully. ways of prayers are unique to many...but in general the are the same in defning. like me and Tony, we pray with our church hymns, which is an important way of prayer. and we have somthing things diffrent, but not saparate enough to call it a diffrent way of prayer.
  • True. PaulS told me that one of the fathers, I believe St. Macarious (I am probably mistaken), would pray saying "God, as you know already." Basically he is not saying Through the intercession of...... and all the other prayers pray. It's quite interesting.
  • Anyways, the bottom line is: Ibrahim Ayad does not know every Church hymn. I am pretty sure he has Hazzats for many hymns that he records and/or when he is singing in the actual Cathedral. Also, Moallem Mikhail Girgis El-Batanouny, knows a lot more hymns than anyone of us knows nowadays because he is the one that practically recorded every hymns known now and gave them to Dr. Ragheb Moftah, who is considered the conservator of all Coptic hymns that we have now.
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