hi everyone my church has only recently started using the projector and i kinda like it! i usually dont know whats going on but the projector helps me concentrate and it gives 3 languages so i always know what everything means. ever since weve been using it, ive truly felt the blessing of the liturgy and at our church, we have some people who are not egyptian so this is also beneficial to them... also, Abouna made 2 of my friends dress as deacons last sunday and they knew what to say and everything because of this...its the first time ive seen them deacons and they were praying along with the older deacons cuz of the projector
Dear 2_live_is_Christ, I never said or hinted that the projector or the kholagy have any advantages: what I am saying is in all honesty, I don't see this as ideal being used in the church; neither of them to be honest. If we take the kholagy it is less of a problem for me, as one can check out something that they don't follow and get back to focusing their eyes and mind on what is happening at the "mangaleya", or in the altar. But it still is a problem. The projector comes as a bigger problem for me (not that it doesn't have advantages) as it keeps distracting the congregation from the things being read (why do you have to listen to the deacon reading any of the readings when you have got a projector with every thing), and from the rituals being undertaken by the priest, and the deacons during the Mass (no one would have the time if they are just reading what the priest is praying raising the Cross one time, and an empty kerchief another). I disagree about people not being able to see the altar when they go to church, except maybe in feast days when the church is too crowded. Other than that, the church is built in a way that the altar is raised above the level of the floor so that every one can see. Dear jsangel_23, I agree with you it has many advantages especially for those who don't know the language (especially Coptic) but that is what we should do: help them learn a bit of Coptic so that they learn what is being said (and it is all just church expressions, I am talking about the hymns), and to stick to the rituals that we have received. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5820.msg78337#msg78337 date=1192481229] Dear 2_live_is_Christ, I never said or hinted that the projector or the kholagy have any advantages: what I am saying is in all honesty, I don't see this as ideal being used in the church; neither of them to be honest. If we take the kholagy it is less of a problem for me, as one can check out something that they don't follow and get back to focusing their eyes and mind on what is happening at the "mangaleya", or in the altar. But it still is a problem. The projector comes as a bigger problem for me (not that it doesn't have advantages) as it keeps distracting the congregation from the things being read (why do you have to listen to the deacon reading any of the readings when you have got a projector with every thing), and from the rituals being undertaken by the priest, and the deacons during the Mass (no one would have the time if they are just reading what the priest is praying raising the Cross one time, and an empty kerchief another).
so the reading are online.....why would u go to church than....wait does that mean people wont go to church since we have broadcasting online here on tasbeha.org.....of course not. people are not that ignorent of our faith.......making easier for them doesn't mean they'll fully ignore our rights and the way of woship.
I disagree about people not being able to see the altar when they go to church, except maybe in feast days when the church is too crowded. Other than that, the church is built in a way that the altar is raised above the level of the floor so that every one can see.
wait.....than this kind of counterdicts ur view of how the old monestary churchs are kind of more spiritual to pray in. those churches are very old and the altar is dafintly covered, if not by the level of the floor it would be by the iconestasis..... our congregation knows what is the altar. they know what's on it and what is practiced. what do you think our priests and deacons and servants teach.
in an indirect way ur counterdicing urself.....that happends by disagreeing with the projector idea which teaches poeple more and than concentrating more on the altar which is ALSO a way of teaching and nothing more. u learn and know GOd by the understanding of our sacremetns and services. watching them is great even thoo from the back where u can't see anything....but learning what is going on is more important.
don't get me wrong.....i personnaly mostly, if possible, stay in the altar, i do....especially in a church like mine...the oldest in the US. but that doesn't happend all the time and that is not dafinit for everyone.
That is some great, frank exchange of views, guys and gals. Perhaps, if you could, use proper grammar; it's hard to read when you use improper grammar. Oh, and spelling! I might just be so arrogant or stupid that I can't understand your posts, or refuse to spend the time to decipher them, but it would make it much easier to understand!
Dear minagir, I was in no way contradicting myself: it is just that you taught me something new saying that the altar in the monasteries of old (as I understood) was concealed behind the iconstasis, or with the altar curtain. But, let's think about it that way: those monasteries and churches even in earlier eras didn't have a kholagy; and how was the spirituality in the church then? That doesn't mean that I see no spirituality with the use of the modern technology nor does that imply that I am anti-it, but I just view it as a useless luxury, which adds nothing to the beauty of our church, and the spirituality and knowledge of the rights of her congregations, but takes away from it. Our church is an educational church in her own right, and stayed so for milleniums, and we are adding an extra means of educational support to it in the twentiesh century? But why? I appreciate that does help some people, especially those who are foreign, or don't know Coptic, but that does happen in SOME churches, and not all. For example, here in the church of St. Mark in London, there is no use of such a device, and thank God for that the most interactive British white community (or at least how I view them) is present in that church in comparison to other churches in England; I have been to a few. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5820.msg78348#msg78348 date=1192524394] Dear minagir, I was in no way contradicting myself: it is just that you taught me something new saying that the altar in the monasteries of old (as I understood) was concealed behind the iconstasis, or with the altar curtain.
not fully all the time but the altar door is very small that you wont be able to see much during liturgy.
But, let's think about it that way: those monasteries and churches even in earlier eras didn't have a kholagy; and how was the spirituality in the church then? That doesn't mean that I see no spirituality with the use of the modern technology nor does that imply that I am anti-it, but I just view it as a useless luxury, which adds nothing to the beauty of our church, and the spirituality and knowledge of the rights of her congregations, but takes away from it.
who said they didn't have kholagies.......books were there all the time. we have katameroses from a long time ago and they are still in the church. this the deal.....technology is part of the world that is develped byt somone's idea/mind which was created by our God. and since it is somthing good, than why not use it. what's wrong with using what's good to our advantage. it's all our God's anyway.... yes i have to say there are many limits to this use but i don't think projectrs are of them.
Our church is an educational church in her own right, and stayed so for milleniums, and we are adding an extra means of educational support to it in the twentiesh century? But why? I appreciate that does help some people, especially those who are foreign, or don't know Coptic, but that does happen in SOME churches, and not all. For example, here in the church of St. Mark in London, there is no use of such a device, and thank God for that the most interactive British white community (or at least how I view them) is present in that church in comparison to other churches in England; I have been to a few. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
why....becasue if the world moves and we stay where we are we are than not doing our job in preaching the word to all nations. you need to use good things to do what we're supposed to do. also no one knows everything......you can one day learn somthing in the liturgy even thoo you been attending the same liturgy for a lot of yrs. education doesn't stop at anything or in anything
I think it's nice having projectors. The reason I think that is because like say for example in Kiahk, sometimes we sing in arabic, sometimes english, sometimes coptic. But when we have different versions of Kiahk books in our hands, people start screwing up each other because of the difference in words. When we have the projector, everybody says the same thing. Liturgies have the same problem. My last point is that, when you have non-coptic visitors in the church, on person from the congregation usually spends the whole time helping out that visitor. With a projector, they can follow along and never get lost in the book. PK
Dear all, As I said before projectors do have many advantages, but I don't see them as ideal being used in the church for several reasons I mentioned before. I am glad we all had a chance to exchange our views, but I think we are running round in circles now, as we don't seem to discuss the idea as a whole; rather we are just debating point by point that each of us is making. It will be good to hear other members' opinions as well. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Doubting Thomas, you previosly wrote this : "the use of Coptic and Arabic in the West is heaps more distracting than any of these technologies, yet the prominent Deaconate tells us it is unorthodox, unpatriotic, not in the best interest for unity of the Churches to get rid of it"
all i want to know is that if your talking about gitting rid of the coptic from the mass? because im very confused about this point. Surley you dont expect to go to a COPTIC orthodox church and have no coptic? so please enlighten me about this statement which you have made thanx mate
I think there should be an option for me and other Christians to celebrate the Mystery of the Communion in a Church that does not use languages we cannot fathom, in a country that does not use these foreign languages without being portrayed as liberal fundamentalist (if such a term could exist). When St. Paul went to the Gentiles did he teach Syriac or Hebrew? God gave the Apostles tongues; now the Orthodox clergy persist that the laymen to appreciate the Liturgy must learn another language- be it Greek, Coptic etc. That is not tradition- you make nill the work of the Holy Spirit with these traditions. If the Liturgy is best done in Coptic because of the heritage, and whatever glory that comes from it- fair enough for those who care. But how about the Christians who don't care (and give me any reason regarding their Salvation why they should!)?
You say that using books and reading from a screen is distracting; how about the fact the chants are in a foreign tongue? Come on, be real. What hypocrisy! You defend the use of a dead language for the sake of keeping heritage, but you make abysmal our efforts to participate in the Liturgy by calling it a distraction. You say we should be concentrating on the Altar- if that is so, why keep Coptic? If the whole thing is on contrary to meditate on the prayers, then again I ask- why Coptic?
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5820.msg78377#msg78377 date=1192591641] I think there should be an option for me and other Christians to celebrate the Mystery of the Communion in a Church that does not use languages we cannot fathom, in a country that does not use these foreign languages without being portrayed as liberal fundamentalist (if such a term could exist). When St. Paul went to the Gentiles did he teach Syriac or Hebrew? God gave the Apostles tongues; now the Orthodox clergy persist that the laymen to appreciate the Liturgy must learn another language- be it Greek, Coptic etc. That is not tradition- you make nill the work of the Holy Spirit with these traditions. If the Liturgy is best done in Coptic because of the heritage, and whatever glory that comes from it- fair enough for those who care. But how about the Christians who don't care (and give me any reason regarding their Salvation why they should!)?
You say that using books and reading from a screen is distracting; how about the fact the chants are in a foreign tongue? Come on, be real. What hypocrisy! You defend the use of a dead language for the sake of keeping heritage, but you make abysmal our efforts to participate in the Liturgy by calling it a distraction. You say we should be concentrating on the Altar- if that is so, why keep Coptic? If the whole thing is on contrary to meditate on the prayers, then again I ask- why Coptic?
wwooooww...
great way of thinking....but i don't think it's that serious. having projectors in churchs can never be in the same lavel of keeping coptic or not. i think the "why Coptic?" question is in another post....but not this on.
take it easy ya habibi......it's just a projector.....may be 2 in some churchs ;D.
Dear Doubting Thomas, First of all as Mina is saying, that is a topic for another post. Second, the answer is people who come to a Coptic Orthodox Church are not expecting to be preached about God in the way that St. Paul went to the Gentiles. They already have faith in Christ, and don't need to be preached in their own languages. It is what Pi Onkh said: you come to a "COPTIC" Orthodox Church, what do you expect to find? Arabic, English, French? Well, that IS found in these churches in foreign countries; however, the practice to me is not 100% correct, as we do have a British Orthodox Church now, a French Orthodox Church, an Indian Orthodox Church and so on. I think it is our role "who care" as you pointed out to teach the people Coptic, and not to do without it altogether. Back to our topic, I think, and it is only my personal opinion, if you give one or two lessons on Coptic, and get rid of the projector thing, people will work their minds and try to understand what they have been taught: so the point in my personal opinion is if you don't teach them, and give them every thing on a silver platter then it is worth nothing. Children of the next generation will keep do with the projector and never learn Coptic. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Are you serious? Teach them Coptic. Make them work for it. Never mind that Coptic has nothing to do with Christ! Never mind that the Projector allows participation. Never mind the reality that a couple of lessons can not bridge the disparity of understanding and participation by the Congregation to what is optimum. Never mind that the congregation is half-asleep because it has no idea what is going on. Never mind our role to Evangelize. Never mind that in America and Australia we do not have any other Church to go to without being heretics. If this arrogance persists I will leave this Church, for what Church makes the struggler struggle needlessly to be in communion with the Saints, through the Liturgy. Instead, Christ portrays the He on contrary is like the shepherd who left his 99 sheep and looked for the lost one, and like the father of the prodigal son, ran as soon as he saw his repentant son from afar.
What the issue here is the contradiction- you say that the Projector is a distraction, but I told you that Coptic is more so. You say now that the projector is handing it to the Congregation (that is already ignorant) on a silver-plater- and propose that people learn not only the Liturgy off by heart, as well as understanding Coptic. Please. Never mind that they should be memorizing the Psalms, the Law, the parables, and hymns for their daily struggle.
Let's burden them even more. I wonder would Christ say about a Church that burdened it's people needlessly- oh wait a minute, He did. "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments." (Matt. 23:4-5) I wonder "have you left your first love" (Rev. 2:4)? Did not Christ say, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." (Rev. 3:20) This is regarding how much Christ helps us in what is actually Spiritually beneficial, yet you insist that we should lament that our participation in the Liturgy is too easy.
I understand where you are coming from. You know the beauty of the Liturgy, and you have experienced it in its original form in Coptic. Thus you think it a dire situation that less and less are grasping the language, and much so the Liturgy.
Remember, my argument is only valid in Australia and America. This struggle is optional if you live in UK or France.
You had opinions that were shaped by your passion and love for the Coptic heritage; what I challenge is its relevance to the common laymen.
You have not sinned; it I who came rather strongly. It is I who am humbled. My frustration is what drove me to the rather judgmental and sarcastic post before. It is the power of rhetoric. I used it inappropriately to close serious and frank dialogue between us. My post was done in frustration, not out of love. Yours was done of love. You even went "my personal opinion". Instead, I wrote as if I am in position of authority. It is I who sinned.
Dear Doubting Thomas, I can clearly see your point. You haven't sinned at all; in fact, you helped me see something which I didn't take into account. Let's just pray for each other. God bless you and pray for us a lot
I am truly humbled and enlightened, by your love great and christianity...I say this honestly with all my heart.
Now I think we have reached Orthodoxoy on this discussion thread...the true way, that Christ preached 2000 odd years ago, to love, to respect your brother, "not to Lord it over others", "to forgive", to practice "love and mercy...for you tithe cummin, mint and annise but the weighter matters of the law you have left undone" for Christ desired "mercy and not sacrafice", for David the repentant understand this well when he said "You do not desire sacrafice or else I would give it, but You desire a broken and contrite heart"...
This is what the Lord wants! A true and sincere relationship with Him, he wants true Christian solidiers ("ambassadors" in St Pauls words) who reflect His light and Glory amongst others NOT to stumble and hinder others by language, linguistics, or technology for tghat matter...St Paul himself said if eating meat stumbles my brother I will never eat meat again, likewise should Coptic be a stumbling block for the new beliver why burden them further, why choke them to the point faith becomes unbearable??
shouldn't you teach them christianity first?! TRUE christianity...the beauty of Christ, maybe then they will be keen to learn and practice the other traditions and cultures as a wise man once said...."you do not reveal a majestic house by showing a man the hidden and dusty foundations that support it from underneath but you take him through its glorious door and show him the awesomeness inside" likewise we should show men our christianity by the beauties of it, the peace and love we experince day by day, then we can reveal to them the foundations that unerpin such pearls, the vigils, fasting, the struggles, and even the Coptic if you like!
With Love in Christ...please pray me for a sinner!
2_liv_is_Christ is quite correct, and Ophadece and Thomas have provided us with a wonderful example of how Christians can diverge in opinion but come back to each other in love and understanding; here we all benefit.
Of the two issues that have arisen here, the language question can perhaps be left where Ophadece and Thomas have left it; as early as the first Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) the Apostles decided it was more important to speak to the people in a language they could understand; but given the history of the Copts and their oppression by Islam, there is an excellent case for continuing to revive it in Egypt. Elsewhere, well, that may be another matter.
On the use of technology, well, if it gets in the way of our worship, then perhaps its use should be reconsidered; but there is much that can distract us if we let it, and in big Churches its use may actually help people.
There is no one option - except the one that Ophadece and Thomas have given to us of Christian humility.
I was unjustly derisive of the clergy, and portrayed them as stubborn and mindless when it comes to tradition. However, as someone raised Coptic I can surely see why we would keep Coptic (ironic now huh) because many of the original hymns were written in this language, as well as our tunes are much more suited to Coptic making the utilizing of the language quite legitimate. I just have concerns that this is a stumbling block for the gentiles and seekers. I am sorry Ophadece (and indeed all) for my inflammatory remarks, and sarcasm, and greatly humbled that my feeble attempt at an apology has been accepted after such a display of malice.
On the use of technology, perhaps it should just be tested in parish's that can afford such, and see if it beneficial overall. "Test everything, hold fast to what is good" - 1 Thess. 5:21
I repudiated the arguments that were given based on an unfair comparison with the use of Coptic. I still hold on to what I say about its benefits, but I should not have marginalized the cons elicited by brothers and sisters.
Comments
my church has only recently started using the projector and i kinda like it!
i usually dont know whats going on but the projector helps me concentrate and it gives 3 languages so i always know what everything means. ever since weve been using it, ive truly felt the blessing of the liturgy and at our church, we have some people who are not egyptian so this is also beneficial to them... also, Abouna made 2 of my friends dress as deacons last sunday and they knew what to say and everything because of this...its the first time ive seen them deacons and they were praying along with the older deacons cuz of the projector
just my opinions
I never said or hinted that the projector or the kholagy have any advantages: what I am saying is in all honesty, I don't see this as ideal being used in the church; neither of them to be honest. If we take the kholagy it is less of a problem for me, as one can check out something that they don't follow and get back to focusing their eyes and mind on what is happening at the "mangaleya", or in the altar. But it still is a problem. The projector comes as a bigger problem for me (not that it doesn't have advantages) as it keeps distracting the congregation from the things being read (why do you have to listen to the deacon reading any of the readings when you have got a projector with every thing), and from the rituals being undertaken by the priest, and the deacons during the Mass (no one would have the time if they are just reading what the priest is praying raising the Cross one time, and an empty kerchief another). I disagree about people not being able to see the altar when they go to church, except maybe in feast days when the church is too crowded. Other than that, the church is built in a way that the altar is raised above the level of the floor so that every one can see.
Dear jsangel_23,
I agree with you it has many advantages especially for those who don't know the language (especially Coptic) but that is what we should do: help them learn a bit of Coptic so that they learn what is being said (and it is all just church expressions, I am talking about the hymns), and to stick to the rituals that we have received.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear 2_live_is_Christ,
I never said or hinted that the projector or the kholagy have any advantages: what I am saying is in all honesty, I don't see this as ideal being used in the church; neither of them to be honest. If we take the kholagy it is less of a problem for me, as one can check out something that they don't follow and get back to focusing their eyes and mind on what is happening at the "mangaleya", or in the altar. But it still is a problem. The projector comes as a bigger problem for me (not that it doesn't have advantages) as it keeps distracting the congregation from the things being read (why do you have to listen to the deacon reading any of the readings when you have got a projector with every thing), and from the rituals being undertaken by the priest, and the deacons during the Mass (no one would have the time if they are just reading what the priest is praying raising the Cross one time, and an empty kerchief another).
so the reading are online.....why would u go to church than....wait does that mean people wont go to church since we have broadcasting online here on tasbeha.org.....of course not.
people are not that ignorent of our faith.......making easier for them doesn't mean they'll fully ignore our rights and the way of woship.
I disagree about people not being able to see the altar when they go to church, except maybe in feast days when the church is too crowded. Other than that, the church is built in a way that the altar is raised above the level of the floor so that every one can see.
wait.....than this kind of counterdicts ur view of how the old monestary churchs are kind of more spiritual to pray in. those churches are very old and the altar is dafintly covered, if not by the level of the floor it would be by the iconestasis.....
our congregation knows what is the altar. they know what's on it and what is practiced. what do you think our priests and deacons and servants teach.
in an indirect way ur counterdicing urself.....that happends by disagreeing with the projector idea which teaches poeple more and than concentrating more on the altar which is ALSO a way of teaching and nothing more. u learn and know GOd by the understanding of our sacremetns and services. watching them is great even thoo from the back where u can't see anything....but learning what is going on is more important.
don't get me wrong.....i personnaly mostly, if possible, stay in the altar, i do....especially in a church like mine...the oldest in the US.
but that doesn't happend all the time and that is not dafinit for everyone.
lol. Thanks!
I was in no way contradicting myself: it is just that you taught me something new saying that the altar in the monasteries of old (as I understood) was concealed behind the iconstasis, or with the altar curtain. But, let's think about it that way: those monasteries and churches even in earlier eras didn't have a kholagy; and how was the spirituality in the church then? That doesn't mean that I see no spirituality with the use of the modern technology nor does that imply that I am anti-it, but I just view it as a useless luxury, which adds nothing to the beauty of our church, and the spirituality and knowledge of the rights of her congregations, but takes away from it.
Our church is an educational church in her own right, and stayed so for milleniums, and we are adding an extra means of educational support to it in the twentiesh century? But why? I appreciate that does help some people, especially those who are foreign, or don't know Coptic, but that does happen in SOME churches, and not all. For example, here in the church of St. Mark in London, there is no use of such a device, and thank God for that the most interactive British white community (or at least how I view them) is present in that church in comparison to other churches in England; I have been to a few.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear minagir,
I was in no way contradicting myself: it is just that you taught me something new saying that the altar in the monasteries of old (as I understood) was concealed behind the iconstasis, or with the altar curtain.
not fully all the time but the altar door is very small that you wont be able to see much during liturgy.
But, let's think about it that way: those monasteries and churches even in earlier eras didn't have a kholagy; and how was the spirituality in the church then? That doesn't mean that I see no spirituality with the use of the modern technology nor does that imply that I am anti-it, but I just view it as a useless luxury, which adds nothing to the beauty of our church, and the spirituality and knowledge of the rights of her congregations, but takes away from it.
who said they didn't have kholagies.......books were there all the time. we have katameroses from a long time ago and they are still in the church.
this the deal.....technology is part of the world that is develped byt somone's idea/mind which was created by our God. and since it is somthing good, than why not use it. what's wrong with using what's good to our advantage. it's all our God's anyway....
yes i have to say there are many limits to this use but i don't think projectrs are of them.
Our church is an educational church in her own right, and stayed so for milleniums, and we are adding an extra means of educational support to it in the twentiesh century? But why? I appreciate that does help some people, especially those who are foreign, or don't know Coptic, but that does happen in SOME churches, and not all. For example, here in the church of St. Mark in London, there is no use of such a device, and thank God for that the most interactive British white community (or at least how I view them) is present in that church in comparison to other churches in England; I have been to a few.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
why....becasue if the world moves and we stay where we are we are than not doing our job in preaching the word to all nations. you need to use good things to do what we're supposed to do.
also no one knows everything......you can one day learn somthing in the liturgy even thoo you been attending the same liturgy for a lot of yrs. education doesn't stop at anything or in anything
PK
As I said before projectors do have many advantages, but I don't see them as ideal being used in the church for several reasons I mentioned before. I am glad we all had a chance to exchange our views, but I think we are running round in circles now, as we don't seem to discuss the idea as a whole; rather we are just debating point by point that each of us is making. It will be good to hear other members' opinions as well.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
"the use of Coptic and Arabic in the West is heaps more distracting than any of these technologies, yet the prominent Deaconate tells us it is unorthodox, unpatriotic, not in the best interest for unity of the Churches to get rid of it"
all i want to know is that if your talking about gitting rid of the coptic from the mass? because im very confused about this point. Surley you dont expect to go to a COPTIC orthodox church and have no coptic? so please enlighten me about this statement which you have made
thanx mate
You say that using books and reading from a screen is distracting; how about the fact the chants are in a foreign tongue? Come on, be real. What hypocrisy! You defend the use of a dead language for the sake of keeping heritage, but you make abysmal our efforts to participate in the Liturgy by calling it a distraction. You say we should be concentrating on the Altar- if that is so, why keep Coptic? If the whole thing is on contrary to meditate on the prayers, then again I ask- why Coptic?
I think there should be an option for me and other Christians to celebrate the Mystery of the Communion in a Church that does not use languages we cannot fathom, in a country that does not use these foreign languages without being portrayed as liberal fundamentalist (if such a term could exist). When St. Paul went to the Gentiles did he teach Syriac or Hebrew? God gave the Apostles tongues; now the Orthodox clergy persist that the laymen to appreciate the Liturgy must learn another language- be it Greek, Coptic etc. That is not tradition- you make nill the work of the Holy Spirit with these traditions. If the Liturgy is best done in Coptic because of the heritage, and whatever glory that comes from it- fair enough for those who care. But how about the Christians who don't care (and give me any reason regarding their Salvation why they should!)?
You say that using books and reading from a screen is distracting; how about the fact the chants are in a foreign tongue? Come on, be real. What hypocrisy! You defend the use of a dead language for the sake of keeping heritage, but you make abysmal our efforts to participate in the Liturgy by calling it a distraction. You say we should be concentrating on the Altar- if that is so, why keep Coptic? If the whole thing is on contrary to meditate on the prayers, then again I ask- why Coptic?
wwooooww...
great way of thinking....but i don't think it's that serious. having projectors in churchs can never be in the same lavel of keeping coptic or not. i think the "why Coptic?" question is in another post....but not this on.
take it easy ya habibi......it's just a projector.....may be 2 in some churchs ;D.
First of all as Mina is saying, that is a topic for another post. Second, the answer is people who come to a Coptic Orthodox Church are not expecting to be preached about God in the way that St. Paul went to the Gentiles. They already have faith in Christ, and don't need to be preached in their own languages. It is what Pi Onkh said: you come to a "COPTIC" Orthodox Church, what do you expect to find? Arabic, English, French? Well, that IS found in these churches in foreign countries; however, the practice to me is not 100% correct, as we do have a British Orthodox Church now, a French Orthodox Church, an Indian Orthodox Church and so on. I think it is our role "who care" as you pointed out to teach the people Coptic, and not to do without it altogether.
Back to our topic, I think, and it is only my personal opinion, if you give one or two lessons on Coptic, and get rid of the projector thing, people will work their minds and try to understand what they have been taught: so the point in my personal opinion is if you don't teach them, and give them every thing on a silver platter then it is worth nothing. Children of the next generation will keep do with the projector and never learn Coptic.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
What the issue here is the contradiction- you say that the Projector is a distraction, but I told you that Coptic is more so. You say now that the projector is handing it to the Congregation (that is already ignorant) on a silver-plater- and propose that people learn not only the Liturgy off by heart, as well as understanding Coptic. Please. Never mind that they should be memorizing the Psalms, the Law, the parables, and hymns for their daily struggle.
Let's burden them even more. I wonder would Christ say about a Church that burdened it's people needlessly- oh wait a minute, He did.
"For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments." (Matt. 23:4-5)
I wonder "have you left your first love" (Rev. 2:4)?
Did not Christ say, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." (Rev. 3:20) This is regarding how much Christ helps us in what is actually Spiritually beneficial, yet you insist that we should lament that our participation in the Liturgy is too easy.
I have sinned; pray to God to forgive me.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Remember, my argument is only valid in Australia and America. This struggle is optional if you live in UK or France.
You had opinions that were shaped by your passion and love for the Coptic heritage; what I challenge is its relevance to the common laymen.
You have not sinned; it I who came rather strongly. It is I who am humbled. My frustration is what drove me to the rather judgmental and sarcastic post before. It is the power of rhetoric. I used it inappropriately to close serious and frank dialogue between us.
My post was done in frustration, not out of love. Yours was done of love. You even went "my personal opinion". Instead, I wrote as if I am in position of authority. It is I who sinned.
I can clearly see your point. You haven't sinned at all; in fact, you helped me see something which I didn't take into account. Let's just pray for each other.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
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Dear doubting Thomas and Ophdace....
I am truly humbled and enlightened, by your love great and christianity...I say this honestly with all my heart.
Now I think we have reached Orthodoxoy on this discussion thread...the true way, that Christ preached 2000 odd years ago, to love, to respect your brother, "not to Lord it over others", "to forgive", to practice "love and mercy...for you tithe cummin, mint and annise but the weighter matters of the law you have left undone" for Christ desired "mercy and not sacrafice", for David the repentant understand this well when he said "You do not desire sacrafice or else I would give it, but You desire a broken and contrite heart"...
This is what the Lord wants! A true and sincere relationship with Him, he wants true Christian solidiers ("ambassadors" in St Pauls words) who reflect His light and Glory amongst others NOT to stumble and hinder others by language, linguistics, or technology for tghat matter...St Paul himself said if eating meat stumbles my brother I will never eat meat again, likewise should Coptic be a stumbling block for the new beliver why burden them further, why choke them to the point faith becomes unbearable??
shouldn't you teach them christianity first?! TRUE christianity...the beauty of Christ, maybe then they will be keen to learn and practice the other traditions and cultures as a wise man once said...."you do not reveal a majestic house by showing a man the hidden and dusty foundations that support it from underneath but you take him through its glorious door and show him the awesomeness inside" likewise we should show men our christianity by the beauties of it, the peace and love we experince day by day, then we can reveal to them the foundations that unerpin such pearls, the vigils, fasting, the struggles, and even the Coptic if you like!
With Love in Christ...please pray me for a sinner!
2_liv_is_Christ is quite correct, and Ophadece and Thomas have provided us with a wonderful example of how Christians can diverge in opinion but come back to each other in love and understanding; here we all benefit.
Of the two issues that have arisen here, the language question can perhaps be left where Ophadece and Thomas have left it; as early as the first Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) the Apostles decided it was more important to speak to the people in a language they could understand; but given the history of the Copts and their oppression by Islam, there is an excellent case for continuing to revive it in Egypt. Elsewhere, well, that may be another matter.
On the use of technology, well, if it gets in the way of our worship, then perhaps its use should be reconsidered; but there is much that can distract us if we let it, and in big Churches its use may actually help people.
There is no one option - except the one that Ophadece and Thomas have given to us of Christian humility.
In Christ,
Anglian
On the use of technology, perhaps it should just be tested in parish's that can afford such, and see if it beneficial overall. "Test everything, hold fast to what is good" - 1 Thess. 5:21
I repudiated the arguments that were given based on an unfair comparison with the use of Coptic. I still hold on to what I say about its benefits, but I should not have marginalized the cons elicited by brothers and sisters.