Filthy and Unclean

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hi Copts (and Coptessess),

I was having a chat (AGAIN!) with muslims, and they asked me about my faith. They said that in Christianity, we do not respect women.

I said :"huh!! U must be joking? Tell me where we do not respect women?".

Then they came out with this verse from Deutronomy, but they read it in Arabic. It says that if a woman has her period she is "NAJESSAH" (which means filthy).

I said.. " no .. in the english, it means UNCLEAN, why does the arabic have NAJESSAH (filthy) as a translation? This is therefore not a good translation".

They said :"Its a Christian Bible, and it is how it is translated".

Can someone check for me in the arabic bible: Are women really filthy in arabic and yet "unclean" in English?? If that's the case, God save the Queen!!

Then they said :"Why did saint paul mention that women should SHUT UP in church". Well, I have no idea.

Can someone just give me good (bible referenced) answers for these questions??

Thanks

Comments

  • Dear QT_PA_2T,
    Arabic is my first knowledge, and I can affirm that "najessa" in this sense means unclean as you right said. As much as any language does have many meanings for one word, Arabic is no exception, and by the way: God's people were full of "najassa" (= uncleanliness), as the Bible says, but God still accepted them back every time they repented, just because they became clean again. How much more do we respect women then, when God accepts us all the unclean. For sure, Muslims wouldn't understand a word of that, because it is all about symbolism, and they are ignorant in that sense unfortunately (or fortunately).
    Giving you Biblical references, I can't, due to lack of knowledge. But generally, these arguments don't appeal to me, as they do not build at all.
    God bless you and mention us in your prayers
  • THanks Oph,
    But I want to understand for me.
    So, In arabic , it says "Najessah"; but why did they translate it to meaning "filthy"?

    Does "najessah" mean filthy or "unclean"??

  • Dear QT_PA_2T,
    As I told you it has got several meanings, but the meaning that I believe the Bible meant is "unclean". However, in their book they use that word to determine if someone, or something is filthy, because they don't believe in cleanliness and uncleanliness, and you can see that for yourself :).
    I hope that clears it up a bit.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • So, "najessah" can mean filthy, and it can mean "unclean"; but the main thing is this: the arabic Bible, it uses "najessah".
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg77171#msg77171 date=1190191082]
    Then they said :"Why did saint paul mention that women should SHUT UP in church". Well, I have no idea.


    Everyone should refrain from speaking in church, both men and women. The only exceptions are those men who have been ordained as Bishops, priests, deacons, or readers.
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5767.msg77178#msg77178 date=1190207857]
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg77171#msg77171 date=1190191082]
    Then they said :"Why did saint paul mention that women should SHUT UP in church". Well, I have no idea.


    Everyone should refrain from speaking in church, both men and women. The only exceptions are those men who have been ordained as Bishops, priests, deacons, or readers.


    OK.. but why didnt he mention that: "Both of u just shut up in Church" - why single out women?
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg77183#msg77183 date=1190210821]
    OK.. but why didnt he mention that: "Both of u just shut up in Church" - why single out women?


    If the church he was writing to was anything like mine, it was the women that needed reminding  :P



    On the point of being "unclean", note that the exact same expression is used to describe men who have had a discharge (see Leviticus 15 for example).
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5767.msg77184#msg77184 date=1190211037]
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg77183#msg77183 date=1190210821]
    OK.. but why didnt he mention that: "Both of u just shut up in Church" - why single out women?


    If the church he was writing to was anything like mine, it was the women that needed reminding  :P



    On the point of being "unclean", note that the exact same expression is used to describe men who have had a discharge (see Leviticus 15 for example).


    Yeah.. same here.. Coptic Egyptian women in France are so noisy. We should introduce tasering.
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5767.msg77184#msg77184 date=1190211037]
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg77183#msg77183 date=1190210821]
    OK.. but why didnt he mention that: "Both of u just shut up in Church" - why single out women?


    If the church he was writing to was anything like mine, it was the women that needed reminding  :P



    On the point of being "unclean", note that the exact same expression is used to describe men who have had a discharge (see Leviticus 15 for example).

    Yeah, I told them that! I said : If it says about the woman she is najessah, (even though this is not the correct translation), then BE SURE that it says the same thing about the man if he has a discharge.

    But... the ONLY problem is: I didnt know how to explain "discharge" in arabic. It was very funny...

    hahahha

    I tried to explain.. and they wouldnt let me speak in English... but.. at the end they got the picture.
  • My mother language is Arabic so i looked up this word "NAJESS" in the arabic dictionary (Al Wajeez) :  it means filthy and in the islamic law NAJASSA are things like urine, blood and alcoholics that prevent a muslim from praying...
    you must know that , unfortunately , the arabic translation of the Bible isn't acuurate in many places.

    About what St.Paul said ..Orthodox11 is right , i was told that St.Paul mentioned the women particulary because there were some noble women who tried to take control over the church , but in general no one is allowed to talk.

  • Hmmm. If we examine closely the dictionary's definition it is clear that in Islamic context the word "Najess" would evoke such a reaction in these Muslims. However, "filthy" is a synonym to "unclean"- and in context of the Bible, or at least in the Apostolic Church, such a conclusion would not have been arrived. Hence, it important to urge your Muslim friends that if they are going to just quote things they heard from others, that they themselves read the whole Scripture.

    I also take issue about reading the Law of Moses. Our religion professes that the fulfillment of the Law is shown by Christ. To understand the Law properly, it's spirit and not just the letter, it must always be in the mind of the seeker the figure of Christ. That is what I believe, and I think belies the recommendation to the seeker to read the NT before the OT. For knowing the spirit of the Law, we can begin to decipher it.

  • I find it very ironic that they are telling you that in Christianity women are not respected, seeing as on many accounts women in the Islamic faith were equated to donkeys or were "sub-men" in many aspects (worship, education, domestic rights...just to name a few). But anyways thats not the topic at hand, in Christianity men and women are equal and given due respect.. but have different roles in the church function.
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg77171#msg77171 date=1190191082]

    Then they said :"Why did saint paul mention that women should SHUT UP in church". Well, I have no idea.


    That was because at that time women wer not educated so it states that when they went home they can ask. This was done so that women who had a lot of questions wouldn't disturb the prayer.
  • 1- I'm sorry did you say they were muslims. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but why do women have to wear the veil in Islam? That is one point why didn't u ask them QT_PA_2T? Please correct me if I'm wrong or seem a bit mean!
    2-To translate a certain text from one language to the other would be hard. A lot of words are present in one language but absent in another. I know there could have been alternatives to NAGESA but it might have been the best suiting one. Anyway it was not put there to be sexist and mean to women. God is not mean or horrible and God doesn't separate between genders.
    Pray 4 me
    Kirolos   
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5767.msg78744#msg78744 date=1193169851]
    [quote author=smile4ever link=topic=5767.msg78742#msg78742 date=1193164911]
    yes...



    So "Najessa" means filthy??


    yes
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