Gay Marriages

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
::) I choose Option # 1, what do YOU think???


  • uhm, one of course, it's wrong from every side, it's mentioned in the bible, what more do u need????
  • thats the first time ive ever seen anyone use the word 'gander'

    personally i dont care to much if gay people get married, i dont agree with it but i wont cast any stones at people who decided to make this choice. its not my place....

  • i'm anti-gay everything...its unatural
    i know a few gay ppl, and as long as they're not doing or talking about their gay life, it doesn't bother me, i still like them i just don't like the lifestyle they have chosen to live
    i don't think that they should be able to get married but i know thats happening in some places already....if they want "marriage benefits" from the government (such as certain tax breaks) go nuts...have them all, but NO MARRIAGE
  • I'm against gay-marriage 110%, I can't even describe it. But, to make things clear, I hate the thought of it and the actual sin, not the sinners themselves.

  • I agree with Sleepy, Remember that God created Adam
    & Eve. Male genital tract & Femal genital tract not for purpose of pleasure, This is For Reproduction.
    Sex between husband & wife not the aim of their marriage,But it helps in their releation.
  • I am against the act of same sex relationships not to mention gay marriages. It's absolutely disgusting! And to bring children into the picture through adoption, it makes me go crazy!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrr, it's haram! And I think we've all heard that God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!
  • [quote author=faithless link=board=4;threadid=464;start=0#msg7568 date=1090399426]
    I agree with Sleepy, Remember that God created Adam
    & Eve. Male genital tract & Femal genital tract not for purpose of pleasure, This is For Reproduction.
    Sex between husband & wife not the aim of their marriage,But it helps in their releation.

    Back up there buddy, yes pleasure IS OK lol God doesnt say its only for reproduction were not machines, but it is however exclusive to a married MAN and WOMAN, and guys i dont think we should be too passive about homosexuality among the people u know, because it is our job to show those who have gone astray to the right path, theres a book written by Pope Shenouda about Homosexuality, its really small and i think everybody should read it, in it the Pope talks about how we should witness to our beliefs to these people, because now theyre not only sinners but theyre sick, they think what theyre doing is so right even to the point of giving themselves a name, if i steal i dont go out in public and say HI IM THIEF solely because its wrong lol i know its wrong and theres consequences for it so i wont go out and parade myself, however society has made homosexuality so normal theyre almost like their own race or gender for that matter, so if u know somebody who is gay, try to find ways to show ur view about their decision to outwardly appear gay but of course not that u are opposing the person since after all like many have said, we oppose the sin not the person, however we can't stay quiet about it because its very serious

    in the early 90's homosexuality was considered a mental disorder and there was medicines that were used, however now the medical board has changed that decision and homosexuality is now no longer a mental condition, but of course we know differently because our beliefs arent influenced by society (Thank God!!!!!)
  • [quote author=egyptsangel16 link=board=4;threadid=464;start=0#msg7572 date=1090426274]
    I am against the act of same sex relationships not to mention gay marriages. It's absolutely disgusting! And to bring children into the picture through adoption, it makes me go crazy!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrr, it's haram! And I think we've all heard that God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

    Yea, too bad not everyone thinks the same way.
    I mean, come on now, if same sex marriages were alright from the start, don't you think that two women or two men would be able to have a child through natural processes???? The way people think these days...

  • ur assuming these guys/girls want children, some just want pleasure... these days? Sodom was way way long ago...
  • They all just want pleasure. Some want children and pleasure so they adopt. It sickens me; im absolutely disgusted by it. WAY TO GO EGYPTSANGEL, i couldntve said it better myself!!!
  • i would say adoption in extreme cases would be ok. I mean its better than nobody adopting the kid.
  • Would u want to be raised by two daddies or two mummies???????? ::)
  • Hahaha, what a sick thought... I think that it would be better for the child to remain in the orphanage than to have gay parents because that way they'd be exposed to less sin.


  • Sorry if I was astonished to read this topic.
    For a simple man cann't agree that by his
    primitive nature, and does not agree with
    all the laws in life. Are you christian and read
    the bible and what happened to such people.
    Are u. not heard about Aids. PL: look for
    other useful things and not imimtate others.
  • I think gay marriage is just another reminder of how 'messed-up' society is. Not only is it disgusting it's just so wrong.
  • If you think gay marriages are wrong, check this website out
  • U think it's ok??? :o
  • No matt, he was just showing us a website of something else that was wrong, which in this case is people calling themselves Christian gays. That’s like an oxymoron. “If you think gay marriage is wrong look at this” kind of like… “well if you thought that was bad, look at this” he was just showing something that was also wrong.
  • oh ok, caus i was shocked after looking at that site man :-\
  • People these days are finding many excuses for the things they do that are against society. These "Gay christians" have formed a church for themselves saying that they believe in the same thing as "regular christians" except that they're outcasts in their own church.

  • Cant they figure out that that same bible that they believe in says it's WRONG to be gay ::)
  • Like I said before, people will find any excuse to make what they're doing right.

  • Please, read the attachment and kindly let my weakness know if you have any questions.
    Pray for me,
    the needy


    [center]Homosexuality In The Orthodox Belief[/center]

    "Homosexuality is a predominant, persistent and exclusive psychosexual attraction toward members of the same sex. A homosexual person is one who feels a sexual desire for and a sexual responsiveness to persons of the same sex and who seeks or would like to seek actual sexual fulfillment of this desire by sexual acts with a person of the same sex." (Encyclopedia of Bioethics, Vol. 2, p. 671)

    Homosexuality is almost as old as man. The first mention in recorded history concerns Lot and the
    well-known history of Sodom and Gomorrah, which took place over 4000 years ago. Throughout all those years, homosexuality has never been accepted as a normal behavior and people have never been open about it comfortably. "

    • Are homosexuals born that way? Do genes anything to do with it? And many questions. No one is born homosexual, nor is it something over which one has no control, unless one thinks one has no control over one's sexual direction (a child's identification is established by the time he or she is five years old).
    • No one can deny that our biological makeup has a profound influence on our lives. Hormones have a great impact on our sexual drive. When it was discovered that both male and female hormones circulate the bloodstream of both sexes, was speculated that an effeminate man just had too many female hormones. However, such a theory would not explain the muscle-. Bound weight lifter who sexually prefers men to women. Obviously, his problem is not a lack of male hormones.
    • Scientists who have run extensive tests on male and female homosexuals have found their hormonal level to be the same as heterosexuals. There is no scientific evidence to support the notion that homosexuality is inherited. It is safe to say that one's genetic and biological makeup does indeed determine his or her sex, but not his or her sexual preference.

    We Know of Two Basic Causes of Homosexuality:
    1. A homosexual psychological outlook (predisposition toward homosexuality), which usually occurs so early in life that the person thinks he was born with it, yet no one, is born homosexual. It is formed in him or her mind.
    + There- are many factors, which develop homosexual behavior such as a hostile father or mother. The majority of men and women with a predisposition toward homosexuality did not turn out to be homosexuals, but married and learned to be completely heterosexuals.
    2. Homosexuality is a learned behavior. Homosexuals are made and not born. They develop homosexuality by thinking positively of homosexual practices. Participating in such practices provides pleasure and consequently leads to more positive thoughts toward homosexuals.
    + As his or her thoughts and activities become more same-sex oriented, he or she tend to think negatively about the opposite sex, so, a predisposition toward homosexuality itself does not implement it. Homosexuality requires an initial experience followed by same-sex thought patterns and more experience.

    The Coptic Orthodox Church and Homosexuality:
    • The Coptic Orthodox Church considers homosexuality a sin condemned by God in the Old and New Testaments. The Church teaches that the only proper place for the exercise of the sexual function is in marriage between a man and a woman. Nowadays the Gay Right Movement, the UFMCI (The Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches) and many psychiatrists try to change the definition of the word "homosexuality" so as to have homosexuals accepted as full members of the society and the church. The Coptic Church takes a very firm stand against homosexuality.
    • Homosexuality is a sin according to the Holy Bible, tradition, and our Church creed.
    A) Homosexuality is against God and Christianity B. Homosexuality is against the Church.
    B) Homosexuality is against the Church.
    C) Homosexuality is against humanity and society.

    Homosexuality against God and Christianity
    (a) God’s will
    (b) The Holy Bible
    (c) The Kingdom of God
    (d) The Incarnation of Christ
    (e) Repentance
    (f) Holiness
    (g) The Salvation
    (h) The Resurrection
    (i) Christianity in General
    (ii) The Truth.
    (iii) Righteousness
    (iv) The Fruits of the Holy Spirit

    Homosexuality against the Church
    (a) The Church
    (b) Tradition
    (c) Teachings of the twelve apostles
    (d) The Church Fathers
    (e) The Ecumenical Council

    Homosexuality against humanity and Society
    (a) Man and himself
    (b) Woman against herself
    (c) Man and the female sex
    (d) Woman and the male sex
    (e) Marriage
    (f) The Family
    (g) Nature
    (h) Love
    (i) Joy
    (j) Peace
    (k) Patience and Kindness
    (l) Self-Control
    (m) Faithfulness'

    In spite of all that, we did not make enemies of homosexuals, they made enemies with everything and lx everybody, and the only way for them to correct this I is to see homosexuality as a sin and repent, so that we I would give thanks to the Lord.

    A. God's will:
    • Christianity is centered in God; in fact its very goal is communion with God, through the accomplishment of His will. God wants us to be and to do what He wants.
    • Homosexuality is against God's will; when God created the human being, He created a male and a female so that a man and a woman would live their lives together in marriage as one flesh. The union of man and woman in the community of marriage is used in the Bible as the image of God's faithful love for Israel, and Christ's sacrificial love for the Church [Isaiah 54, Jeremiah 3 and Ezekiel 16].
    • For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." [Ephesians 5:23-26]

    B. The Holy Bible:
    • The Bible is the written word of God in human form. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." [Timothy 3:16-17]
    • Homosexuality is a sin condemned by God in the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, homosexuality was not only considered a sin, but it was also found to be a capital offense, that is, punishable by death. "If a man be with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them." [Leviticus 20:13] Also in Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not be with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination."
    • God gave great punishment to the city of Sodom for this sin. [Genesis 19:1-29] As a result, sodomy is another name for homosexuality.
    • The New Testament, speaking of this sinful act, uses it to illustrate the "depraved passions" of fallen humanity: "... their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way the men abandoned the natural function of women, and burned in their desire towards one another, men I with men, committing indecent acts. " [Romans I 1:24-28]

    • Homosexuality is an evil where punishment is promised. "Do you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor arsenokoitai, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God." [I Corinthians 6:9-10]
    • St. Paul in his letter to Timothy said "... understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine." [1St. Timothy 1:9-10]. The sin in Sodom was homosexuality. Jude in his letter said that its punishment is eternal fire. "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." [Jude?].

    C. The Kingdom of God:
    • God's gift of eternal life in Christ and the Holy Spirit is the Kingdom of God. Jesus brought the Kingdom of God to the world through the Spirit in the Church.
    • To live in the Kingdom of God is to live in freedom from any sin. We said before that homosexuality is a sin according to the scripture, so a homosexual person would be deceiving himself if he thinks that] he can practice that wrong life style and still go to heaven.
    • St. Paul said ". The Kingdom of God is. , Righteousness and peace arid joy in the Holy Spirit, he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men." [Romans 14:17-18]

    D) The Incarnation of Christ:
    • The incarnation of the word provided quite a different context for the discussion of homosexuality. In the book "The Incarnation of the Word", St. Athanasius sought to explicate the purpose of the incarnation of Christ "the Lord came among us" because of the fallen state of mankind. God had created man incorruptible and "willed that he should remain in incorruptibility". He continued to say "
    • For God did not only create us from nothing, but He also granted us by the grace of the Word to live a divine life." However, mankind, "by the counsel of the devil corrupted the pristine purity". People turned against nature and indulged in sin, becoming "insatiable in sinning". Homosexuality is listed as a sin by which men and women turned against nature and against the divine plan for their lives. For St. Athanasius, to be involved in homosexual behavior was to abrogate the purpose both of the creation and of Christ's advent into the world.

    E. Repentance:
    • Repentance is the act of changing the attitude and practice of a Christian. Repentance is a feeling of sorrow, which involves the mercy of God as stated in the New Testament "I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance." [Luke 5:32]
    • Repentance is meaningful and significant when it includes a sincere change of mind, heart, and attitude toward the fulfillment of the Gospel's instructions and commandments.
    • Homosexual people do not feel that their acts are sinful; they will not repent and will continue in their sin, so they are against repentance.

    F. Holiness:
    • Jesus Christ invites all of us to live in holiness like Him. "Without holiness, no one can see God." Whoever lives in holiness, lives with God and whoever lives in sin is far from God. Those who live in homosexuality live in sin and unseemliness. They live far from holiness and even against it.
    • In orthodox theology, salvation is not static but. Dynamic, it is not a completed state, but a constant moving toward theosis, toward becoming like Christ, toward receiving the fullness of God's life. The meaning of salvation is that God, through his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, saves us from our sin. As we mentioned before, homosexuality is sinful, therefore those who practice it are not saved and are against salvation. They not only commit this sin, but also enjoy it. "They not only do them but approve those who practice them." [Romans 1:32]

    G. Resurrection:
    • Paul, the apostle, said that the resurrection is the basis of the whole ministry, and without it the ministry becomes vain. "If Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.... and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, you are in your sins." [1 Cor. 15:14.17]
    • The proper sexual relation woman is part of the marriage sacrament and extends to the resurrection. The world of the resurrection is victorious over death, all aspects of weakness, isolation, evil and corruption.
    • In our final resurrection in the Kingdom of God, the natural sexual relations between man and woman will end, as the limitations of sex will disappear due to the end of sexual desires. In that aspect, Jesus Christ said, "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage." [Luke 20:34]
    • The sexual desire is related to the biological structure, which is going to disappear. The desire is there only until death. The sexual desire is a means to maintain the human race; therefore, as death disappears from the world of the resurrection, the sexual desire also disappears. This is what Jesus said "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: but they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels: and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." [Luke 20:34-36]
    • Some people want to live in the world of the resurrection while they are still on earth, as if they have reached the end of time, therefore they abstain from the natural sexual relationship and live in purity. They do that, not because they despise sex, but to dedicate all their energy to God alone, to live from now as if they are in the world of the resurrection, defeating death.
    • The Coptic Orthodox Church was the first to start monk hood. St. Antonius the Egyptian started monk hood, which thereafter spread from Egypt to the whole world. For ages and up until now, many lived the life of monk hood in complete purity, fulfilling Jesus' saying: "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it let him receive it." [Matt. 19:12]
    • If the proper sexual relationship between a man and a woman through the sacrament of marriage will end at the world of the resurrection, and if there are those who preceded the time and lived in the world of God while they are still on earth, abstaining from the natural sexual relationship, practicing the life of absolute purity to be totally united with God, in the same picture that will be the kingdom of God, then what is the status of those who practice abnormal sexual relations "homosexuality"? Indeed it is an abnormal and wrong relationship that contradicts the objectives of Christ's resurrection and the life of His kingdom on earth.

    H. Christianity in General:
    • The Gay church group and their belonging to Christianity are strange and shameful to Christianity among the other religions. Judaism fought homosexuality. It resisted and refused it as mentioned in the Old Testament, so did almost all social groups and schools of behavior. They refuse homosexuality with all its aspects. The Gay church group is a shame to Christianity, not only because it carries the name "church" but also because of their presumption that they are Christians while Christianity has nothing to do with them.

    J. Truth:
    • "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness." [Romans 1:18]. History and society defined homosexuality as untruthful.

    K. Righteousness:
    • Jesus Christ in the 'Sermon on the Mount' said, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." [Matt. 5:6]
    • St. Augustine explained that saying: "He calls them lovers of the true and unchangeable goodness. Therefore, they shall be satisfied with that food of which the Lord himself says: “My food is to do the will of My Father”. This is the righteousness, and they shall be satisfied with that water. That water of which the Lord says, “Whosoever shall drink, it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting”.

    L. Fruits of the Spirit:
    • In Romans 1:29-31 and Galatians 5:22, the sins of homosexual acts are against the fruits of the Holy Spirit that should be present in every Christian. Those sins are: they were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless and ruthless." The fruits of the
    Holy Spirit are "... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
    • Therefore, homosexuals will never obtain the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
  • I have that book. It's so good...
    I reccommend it to everyone here

  • In this post, homosexuality or, more properly, same sex attraction, is confused with homosexual practice. It is absolutely crucial that we understand the distinction between these concepts. Homosexuality is attraction to one's own sex. It is a feeling, not an action. Homosexual practice is acting upon that feeling.

    To give you a parallel, when the Bible refers to fornicators, that is, those who engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage, it does not refer to those who just feel an attraction to people they are not married to. It refers to those who act on the attraction, or, in Jesus' reference to lust in our hearts, to those who think through or mentally indulge in the attraction instead of just dismissing the feeling. The Bible refers to homosexuals in the same way. It does not condemn the feelings, which no one can help, but the actions, if there are any, and there need not be.

    Next, you don't need to establish that same sex attraction is not biological in order to support the Biblical injunction against homosexual practice. The Bible does not say that homosexual practice is wrong only if we assume that same sex attraction is a learned behaviour. Even if homosexual attraction is biologically determined, to some extent or another, homosexual behaviour is not permitted.

    And, from what we know scientifically, we don't know for certain what causes homosexuality. The fact that very few people, even extremely committed Christians, have been able to remove the attraction and exchange it for heterosexual attraction indicates that there must be some, even if small, biological or some other intrinsic cause for this attraction.

    I would insist that this is NOT a 'new' discovery. Our ancient fathers, including St. Paul, knew this. There have always been effiminate, homosexuality among animals, which any farmer knows about, and so on. It is with this knowledge, and more, considering Roman society, that St. Paul discusses sexuality in his letters.

    Finally, as Orthodox, we should always remember that our teaching on sexuality and life, is all-inclusive. We cannot separate homosexual behaviour from fornication, abortion, divorce or other such Biblically prohibited behaviour. There is no way we can consider one 'worse' that the other. Remember, whether his attraction is learned or inherited, the homosexual, like the heterosexual, cannot help the attraction. By singling him out, we are driving him out of the church. He should be treated like everyone else because he is bound by the rules that everyone else is bound by, that is, sexual expression is only permitted within the bounds of marriage between a man and woman, and so on.

    <Link deleted by admin>
  • long as even the FEELING is being FOUGHT then i agree with you...feelings give rise to thoughts..possibly thoughts of actions etc which is a as long as the person battles the feelings and thoughts so as to stop the sin from its roots, then the person has a chance.... its not like "Oh okay, a male feels he likes another male but doesnt commit the act so its all good..he can have the feelings and express them and communicate them to his crush etc." You gotta remember that were dealin with sin n its stronger than us so we battle it frum the roots so it doesnt make a home in us..whether in our feelings, minds, etc.
  • homosexuality among animals, which any farmer knows about,

    lol...forgive me for laughing...But its so true...I 've heard people say ,"Homosexuals are lower than animals,animals wouldnt even do what they do."Oviously these people know nothing about animals or the type of behavior they engage in.Any rancher or as you say "farmer" knows that animals engage in homosexual practice all the time.Take for instance cattle.If you have a 100{or any amount}steers,{castrated bulls,almost all the meat you eat,hamburgers,etc comes from castrated bulls i.e "}in a pen or pasture they will eventually single out one"effeminate" steer to engage in homosexual practice.If the rancher does not seperate this steer from the rest then the others will"ride" him to death.Thats just the way it is.

    The point is that homosexuality is a result of sin entering the world,not only disrupting the natural functioning of man but also the whole creation,all of nature is deeply affected by sin.Sin is not only something you do but it is also a living virus that affects the very fabric of our being.It is a part of us.The only way to get rid of it is to die and become a new man.We need to be "born again",to be born from above.This can only be achieved by the grace and working of the Holy Spirit.All because of the Life,Death,Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.Because the Father so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

    Another point to be made is this.Many of you claim that homosexuality is not in some some small part genetic or biological.If this is true then how do you explain the practice of homosexuality among animals?They dont have reason or will do they?Its not done by free choice is it? Of course not! They do it because sin has so warped the very fabric of nature that this abnormal and disgusting behavior is embedded in their genetic makeup.Over the course of time sin has twisted the natural drives replacing them with tendancies that are unnatural and at odds against the true natural designs of the Creator.This is the power of sin!Who can set us free fom this tyrant?Praise be to God for the Savior and Redeemer of the Cosmos,the Lord Jesus Christ!

    If man has been born,due to the ravaging effects of sin,with effeminate or homosexual tendncies,this is still no exuse for homosexual behavior!For several reasons:

    1.God commands all men to be pure and to save their sexuality for marriage.Whether you have homosexual or herotosexual feelings makes no difference!You are commanded by God to possess your vessal with honor and self control.God Himself will give you grace to achieve mastery over your fleshly body.

    2.We all have evil desires contrary to the will and character of God.Impulses,desires feelings,etc. that constantly wage war against the inner spiritual man.The flesh against the Spirit.Sin entices us to lie,steal,etc. but we must not act on these impulses but rather resist them by the power of the Holy Spirit.So it is with ALL sexual feelings,lusts,etc.We must resist them!If you have homosexual feelings,resist them!If you have herotsexual feelings,resist them!God will give you the ability!Sexuality must be preserved for marriage!God is able to change your homosexual feelings,your biological makeup if that is the case.He will make you a new creature,the old man must die and pass away.And that must happen to all men if they hope to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
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