Protestant hymns Vs Coptic hymns

edited December 1969 in Random Issues
shoot people what do you think? me personally im love protestant hymns but i value coptic hymns
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  • [quote author=Unwritten link=topic=5119.msg68829#msg68829 date=1174301039]
    shoot people what do you think? me personally im love protestant hymns but i value coptic hymns


    hhmmmm Protestant never had hymns, they don't even have a liturgy. you can't compare if there is no similarities of whatsoever.
    Protestants have songs which are mostly theologically and dogmatically wrong compared to our church. That’s one way they deceive people into there "right Christianity."
    And if you don’t like coptic hymns, that’s ok. We also have coptic songs and chants that are not hymns and that are sung by many. And these are right and approved by our church (if they are reviewed by clergy members)
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68831#msg68831 date=1174321812]
    hhmmmm Protestant never had hymns, they don't even have a liturgy. you can't compare if there is no similarities of whatsoever.

    Maybe not a valid one, but its wrong to say Protestants do not have a Liturgy. Lutherans and Anglicans, for example, have a Liturgy very similar to that of the Catholics.

    As for them never having hymns, I'm not sure what you mean.


    To answer the original question, I would say it depends on two things:
    1. Are they theologically sound?
    2. How are they used?

    The first one is obvious. If a hymn is not theologically correct and in line with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, it would be blasphemous to use it in any religious context.

    With regards to the second point, I would say it is ok to sing/listen to (theologically correct) Protestant hymns in private; but they should not be used in any Liturgical context whatsoever. The hymns of the Church (whether they be Coptic, Syrian, etc) eminate from the life of the Church and her Saints, guided by the Holy Spirit. Protesant hymns come from outside of this sacred sanctuary and therefore it would be wrong and artificial to introduce them into the services of the Church.
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5119.msg68832#msg68832 date=1174323954]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68831#msg68831 date=1174321812]
    hhmmmm Protestant never had hymns, they don't even have a liturgy. you can't compare if there is no similarities of whatsoever.

    Maybe not a valid one, but its wrong to say Protestants do not have a Liturgy. Lutherans and Anglicans, for example, have a Liturgy very similar to that of the Catholics.

    As for them never having hymns, I'm not sure what you mean.

    well yes that's what i was talking about. not a liturgy that is approved by the other churchs like Catholics and Orthodox.
    and about not having hymns; a hymn to me in more of a liturgical chant that have theological meanings and that refares back to the faith of the church.

    To answer the original question, I would say it depends on two things:
    1. Are they theologically sound?
    2. How are they used?

    The first one is obvious. If a hymn is not theologically correct and in line with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, it would be blasphemous to use it in any religious context.

    With regards to the second point, I would say it is ok to sing/listen to (theologically correct) Protestant hymns in private; but they should not be used in any Liturgical context whatsoever. The hymns of the Church (whether they be Coptic, Syrian, etc) eminate from the life of the Church and her Saints, guided by the Holy Spirit. Protesant hymns come from outside of this sacred sanctuary and therefore it would be wrong and artificial to introduce them into the services of the Church.

    i totally agree. also i wanted to add the liturgies in the coptic church have it's own hymns that are diffrent from the normal songs that are song int he church. even if they are approved and are in fact coptic.
  • The Anglican Communion have their own distinctive liturgical chant which is known as "Anglican Chant". The Psalms and Canticles are commonly chanted during Evensong (Evening Prayer), a service that is part of the Anglican Divine Office and similar to Vespers.
  • ummm well when i first read the title..........i was thinking more so about the songs used at for example youth meetings or during the church service at a Anglican church for example.......songs like all things are possible, Shine Jesus shine, How great Thou art and theres heaps more........are these the songs that you (orthodox 11) are talking about that shud be sung or listened to in private???
    even tho there is no protestant church per se...........anglicans and other new denominations fall under this banner......
    are we on the same wave length???..................
  • Well, i can't generalise, i mean, basically, we came to the conclusion that Coptic songs are not "emotional".

    One servant said that everything in the Coptic CHurch leads u to repentance. Everything: from the hymns, to the saints, to the liturgy, etc.. its all about repentance.

    Protestantism, generally, doesn't deny that repentance is essential, but they focus more on "loving God". That whatever your sins, God loves you. WHich is a bit dangerous, because they've reached the point where adultary is no longer a sin, because if God loves you, He also loves what you do; you just have to love Him back, and donate all your income to 0800-I-LOVE-GOD (calls cost 99p per minute peak/off peak).

    There are some protestant songs however, that are quite "deep". Deep in the sense that its not a weak emotional communication between us and God, its full of praise. But it depends on which songs.
    THere are some protestant songs that are literally a copy of what we say in Coptic in some of our hymns. But these are protestant french songs. I've never heard any "spiritually deep" Protestant English songs.

    The only protestant english song i heard was:
    "..I want to touch You, I want to see Your face... I want to hold You, i want to touch You, because its all about You.. OOoooOOoOOooo"..

    Yep! VERY LAME!! Compared to Apenshois, and Vol Evol, and Agios Otheos.... its a very silly song that does not belong in our Church. Yet, many coptic christians like this stuff... the weird thing is that those that like it, are in fact very active in the Church. I mean, they're not like silly young kids who have nothing to do; they really give 100% of their lives to God.

    All i can say is this: If these people say / pray such nonsense, and are so close to God, then prayer must be a very easy thing. Yet,  why do i find it so hard in that case??
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    While I realize I'm in no way contributing to this topic, I have to say:

    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68933#msg68933 date=1174578319]
    The only protestant english song i heard was:
    "..I want to touch You, I want to see Your face... I want to hold You, i want to touch You, because its all about You.. OOoooOOoOOooo"..


    this is hilarious.  :D
  • Yeah, the song was so lame. Im just surprised how abouna evaluates people's spirituality when they tell him we want to sing such songs. I don't know what he does, but the more silly songs they sing,the more responsibility they are given in the Church.

    What the heck, i'll probably go and ask him if we can sing Incy wincy spider climbing up the spout...  just to get myself my own sunday school class. He'll probably recommend me to become a bishop.

    Its good that they all love God, and pray a lot... but why do they have to bring that into our Church ? Why not become protestant and leave the Coptic as it is. If they are THAT spiritual - why not have the humility to learn arabic and sing with others!???? Surely that's the action of humility? what good is spirituality if it has no impact on your conduct?!! BUT THEY DONT! THey are all INTOLERANT OF COPTIC. As soon as we sing all their lame protestant song, and we start on the coptic songs (in ENGLISH and COPTIC by the way!), they all leave!!!! How rude!!


    Look: There's a discussion going on about learning arabic, and there are many of us who do not speak or read arabic well, have bothered to learn arabic so we can participate in the mass. There is a strong sense of anti-copticness in all this, that rather than learn arabic, or coptic, or even anything coptic, they introduce protestant songs in our church.

    I have nothing against the protestant church, but its best to leave them grow in their own spirituality, and leave us to grow in ours: don't bring their songs in our Church! please!



  • Personally, i believe that the more hymns you learn in the coptic church, the more you will begin to adore them. I love the hymns in our church because they express my soul deeply. There is a very nice interview here with one cantor thats worth checking out.......it explains what im talking about. http://copticheritage.org/PagEd+index-page_id-826.phtml

    GB
    Tony
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68933#msg68933 date=1174578319]
    "..I want to touch You, I want to see Your face... I want to hold You, i want to touch You, because its all about You.. OOoooOOoOOooo"..

    actually i tihnk that song we can say. nothing wrong with the meaning in our faith. not fully sure but i heard it from someone who is really nice with songs in my church.

    Yep! VERY LAME!! Compared to Apenshois, and Vol Evol, and Agios Otheos.... its a very silly song that does not belong in our Church. Yet, many coptic christians like this stuff... the weird thing is that those that like it, are in fact very active in the Church. I mean, they're not like silly young kids who have nothing to do; they really give 100% of their lives to God.

    again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.
    aslo please make sure to not confuse hymns with songs. just for the respect for hymns and liturgical services.

    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68939#msg68939 date=1174584254]
    Its good that they all love God, and pray a lot... but why do they have to bring that into our Church ? Why not become protestant and leave the Coptic as it is. If they are THAT spiritual - why not have the humility to learn arabic and sing with others!????
    well arabic is not easy to learn. and if ur now talking about humility, why not those who are singing arabic have enough humility to sing with the other. don't forget, you hav to think about everyone. also truth be told, english and some other languages are a lot easier to learn than arabic. ::)


    Look: There's a discussion going on about learning arabic, and there are many of us who do not speak or read arabic well, have bothered to learn arabic so we can participate in the mass. There is a strong sense of anti-copticness in all this, that rather than learn arabic, or coptic, or even anything coptic, they introduce protestant songs in our church.

    lol, learn coptic. what r u going to do with arabic.


    I have nothing against the protestant church, but its best to leave them grow in their own spirituality, and leave us to grow in ours: don't bring their songs in our Church! please!

    lol.......................you wanna address that to all the copts.....  :D;D
  • Ha! Mina!!

    You do exactly what abouna and all the servents do in our church which brought us into this mess with protestant songs: they said to us (the Orthodox bunch of youth in the Church) : Look: there's nothing wrong dogmatically with these songs.

    THe thing is this: now we have to sing them EVERY time, and on top of that, because we've said yes to such silly songs, we're now tied down to a life time contract to agreeing on such silly songs for the rest of the life of the congregation.

    All because someone said :"well.... there's nothing dogmatically wrong with it".

    Well.. ok.. there's nothing dogmatically incorrect with Abdel Halim Hafez, we can all sing that then, can't we!???

    There's nothing dogmatically incorrect with Celine Dione's My Heart will go On... we can all sing that then to God can we??!!


    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68941#msg68941 date=1174586446]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68933#msg68933 date=1174578319]
    "..I want to touch You, I want to see Your face... I want to hold You, i want to touch You, because its all about You.. OOoooOOoOOooo"..

    actually i tihnk that song we can say. nothing wrong with the meaning in our faith. not fully sure but i heard it from someone who is really nice with songs in my church.

    Yep! VERY LAME!! Compared to Apenshois, and Vol Evol, and Agios Otheos.... its a very silly song that does not belong in our Church. Yet, many coptic christians like this stuff... the weird thing is that those that like it, are in fact very active in the Church. I mean, they're not like silly young kids who have nothing to do; they really give 100% of their lives to God.

    again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.
    aslo please make sure to not confuse hymns with songs. just for the respect for hymns and liturgical services.

    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68939#msg68939 date=1174584254]
    Its good that they all love God, and pray a lot... but why do they have to bring that into our Church ? Why not become protestant and leave the Coptic as it is. If they are THAT spiritual - why not have the humility to learn arabic and sing with others!????
    well arabic is not easy to learn. and if ur now talking about humility, why not those who are singing arabic have enough humility to sing with the other. don't forget, you hav to think about everyone. also truth be told, english and some other languages are a lot easier to learn than arabic. ::)


    Look: There's a discussion going on about learning arabic, and there are many of us who do not speak or read arabic well, have bothered to learn arabic so we can participate in the mass. There is a strong sense of anti-copticness in all this, that rather than learn arabic, or coptic, or even anything coptic, they introduce protestant songs in our church.

    lol, learn coptic. what r u going to do with arabic.


    I have nothing against the protestant church, but its best to leave them grow in their own spirituality, and leave us to grow in ours: don't bring their songs in our Church! please!

    lol.......................you wanna address that to all the copts.....  :D;D
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68942#msg68942 date=1174587251]
    You do exactly what abouna and all the servents do in our church which brought us into this mess with protestant songs: they said to us (the Orthodox bunch of youth in the Church) : Look: there's nothing wrong dogmatically with these songs.

    ok, wait a minute. first there is no songs in any liturgy. NONE. may be some priest let a song or two go while the communion but not into the liturgy.

    THe thing is this: now we have to sing them EVERY time, and on top of that, because we've said yes to such silly songs, we're now tied down to a life time contract to agreeing on such silly songs for the rest of the life of the congregation.

    stop saying silly songs. they're still songs that are accepted. said it one time, ok, learn it. it's that simple.
    you can't just keep repeating the same thing over and over..

    All because someone said :"well.... there's nothing dogmatically wrong with it".

    which is true am sure.

    Well.. ok.. there's nothing dogmatically incorrect with Abdel Halim Hafez, we can all sing that then, can't we!??? There's nothing dogmatically incorrect with Celine Dione's My Heart will go On... we can all sing that then to God can we??!!

    of cource there is. it's not even christian songs. how is it bringing you closer to God.

    now if you say these songs don't bring u closer to God ok fine, but  am sure they do to others. so you should respact that. also am sure there would be a kind of balance. if not u can talk to the priest. don't tell hem we need to not sing this song, but ask niclly to sing this...
  • Mina,
    I am not kidding here: these songs were pop songs and all they've done is sing it to God. THat's it!

    Period!

    You want me to stop calling them "silly" ? ok.. they are VERY SILLY.

    there : feel better!!

  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68944#msg68944 date=1174589152]
    Mina,
    I am not kidding here: these songs were pop songs and all they've done is sing it to God. THat's it!

    Period!

    You want me to stop calling them "silly" ? ok.. they are VERY SILLY.

    there : feel better!!


    lol, am not the one whose angry about them. i just say what i know about what you said. than i really don't blame any of them , protestant, for our alhan and songs. since our stuff is the same way to them as what you say now. Silly Songs. but instead they would say, Silly ooooooooooos and aaaaaaahs ot eeeeeeeees
  • I've just received news that Anba Angelos is singing these songs at City Mission with the Coptic Youth.

    You're right, calling them silly is wrong. They are good songs. Great songs.
    Man, I'm so glad to be protestant , it feels good being a protestant - doesn't it!!

    I hope this doesn't mean we are going to ordain gay priests and bishops now.

    LOL

    God have mercy on us all.....

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68945#msg68945 date=1174589372]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68944#msg68944 date=1174589152]
    Mina,
    I am not kidding here: these songs were pop songs and all they've done is sing it to God. THat's it!

    Period!

    You want me to stop calling them "silly" ? ok.. they are VERY SILLY.

    there : feel better!!


    lol, am not the one whose angry about them. i just say what i know about what you said. than i really don't blame any of them , protestant, for our alhan and songs. since our stuff is the same way to them as what you say now. Silly Songs. but instead they would say, Silly ooooooooooos and aaaaaaahs ot eeeeeeeees
  • Easy people,
    I just realised!!!

    City Mission is where the Coptic youth mix with Khawagat (British people) in Victoria train station. Of course they're not going to sing Coptic songs in a train station.

    I understand Anba Angelos' strategy:

    a) We evangelise in a train station with Protestant songs. If anyone loves God from us singing these songs, then Great!
    b) If they DON'T love God, and find us annoying, then they'll go to the Protestant temple in London to complain and leave us alone...

    Ahh!! SMART MOVE!!!

    Yeah.. those silly protestant songs... ha!!
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68946#msg68946 date=1174589813]
    Man, I'm so glad to be protestant , it feels good being a protestant - doesn't it!!

    I hope this doesn't mean we are going to ordain gay priests and bishops now.

    Stop being sarcastic in your replies.

    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68947#msg68947 date=1174590030]
    I understand Anba Angelos' strategy:

    a) We evangelise in a train station with Protestant songs. If anyone loves God from us singing these songs, then Great!
    b) If they DON'T love God, and find us annoying, then they'll go to the Protestant temple in London to complain and leave us alone...

    Ahh!! SMART MOVE!!! Yeah.. those silly protestant songs... ha!!


    again.

    and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.

    one quick question vassilios, do you even who how diffrent protestants are from us. (please don't take this as anything differnet than a question)
  • Mina,
    I used to attend a protestant prayer group in Paris - ok.
    When there was no Coptic CHurch available.

    I just don't want the Coptic CHurch to become protestant... we're losing our orthodox identity.

  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68949#msg68949 date=1174593037]
    Mina,
    I used to attend a protestant prayer group in Paris - ok.
    When there was no Coptic CHurch available.

    I just don't want the Coptic CHurch to become protestant... we're losing our orthodox identity.

    LLLOOOLLL,
    you think 1990 years of heritage will easily put behind and change. that's really the most funny thing i ever heard vassilios.

    also how are we losing our orthodox identity. i thought there is more church around, priests, bishops, deacons,monks, and also congergation. after all we still have our Pope still standing between the great churchs on the see of St. Mark in honor.
  • Guys, calm down. No one should be worried about our faith and heritage. We will never say these things during a liturgy if thats what you're thinking, believe me.
  • Mina,
    Why is anba angelos singing protestant hymns with the youth in London?? Huh?

    Anba Boulis (of africa) did the same thing: but with a difference: he said go and sing Coptic songs in the metro (i wasn't there... but i heard!) hahah.. anyway : this is odd to hear so many "emotional" songs in our church, even if they dogmatically correct.

    Ouufff... you don't live in london! Do u??

    The spirituality is becoming a protestant movement actually; and its very charismatic.

  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68957#msg68957 date=1174644371]
    Mina,
    Why is anba angelos singing protestant hymns with the youth in London?? Huh?

    Anba Boulis (of africa) did the same thing: but with a difference: he said go and sing Coptic songs in the metro (i wasn't there... but i heard!) hahah.. anyway : this is odd to hear so many "emotional" songs in our church, even if they dogmatically correct.

    like i said before and again, there is nothing wrong with those songs.
    vassilios, you might not like the songs but others. that's why you should respect them as they would respect you to.

    Ouufff... you don't live in london! Do u??

    no i don't, i live in a worst place...lol..

    The spirituality is becoming a protestant movement actually; and its very charismatic.

    you can call spirituality what ever you want. but the spiritual is more of the person and his relationship with God. there is general spirituality to but what we're talking about is more deep to them person.
  • Mina!
    Listen!!! THis isn't about like or not like! OK!
    THis is about something has entered the coptic church, and it shouldn't have! If people want to change the liturgy into different languages - FINE! but don't change the liturgy itself!!

    These songs in the Coptic Church are so lame!! Is that clearer for you??

    I don't mind listening to them on the radio, or in a nightclub, but not in my Coptic Church!!!!

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68958#msg68958 date=1174647756]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68957#msg68957 date=1174644371]
    Mina,
    Why is anba angelos singing protestant hymns with the youth in London?? Huh?

    Anba Boulis (of africa) did the same thing: but with a difference: he said go and sing Coptic songs in the metro (i wasn't there... but i heard!) hahah.. anyway : this is odd to hear so many "emotional" songs in our church, even if they dogmatically correct.

    like i said before and again, there is nothing wrong with those songs.
    vassilios, you might not like the songs but others. that's why you should respect them as they would respect you to.

    Ouufff... you don't live in london! Do u??

    no i don't, i live in a worst place...lol..

    The spirituality is becoming a protestant movement actually; and its very charismatic.

    you can call spirituality what ever you want. but the spiritual is more of the person and his relationship with God. there is general spirituality to but what we're talking about is more deep to them person.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496]
    and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.


    So if I get everyone at church to start a Bible study or prayer meeting by saying Surat al-Fatiha, which is not dogmatically incorrect as such, we no longer need to acknowledge it as the first chapter of the Qur'an because it now "applies to our church"?

  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5119.msg68933#msg68933 date=1174578319]

    The only protestant english song i heard was:
    "..I want to touch You, I want to see Your face... I want to hold You, i want to touch You, because its all about You.. OOoooOOoOOooo"..



    never heard it b4 but yes very poor choice and lack of spiritual depth.........but this is only one amongst many

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68941#msg68941 date=1174586446]

    Yep! VERY LAME!! Compared to Apenshois, and Vol Evol, and Agios Otheos.... its a very silly song that does not belong in our Church. Yet, many coptic christians like this stuff... the weird thing is that those that like it, are in fact very active in the Church. I mean, they're not like silly young kids who have nothing to do; they really give 100% of their lives to God.

    again, if there is nothing wrong with the words, if doesn't countordict our rites and dogmos, there is nothing wrong with them.


    its more than just the words..........i mean yes these songs shouldnt contradict our teaching but also what type of emotions arose from hearing these songs? like do ppl feel like dancing etc

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5119.msg68948#msg68948 date=1174590496]

    and since they apply to our church, as i said tons of times before, they don't need to be called Protestant songs anymore.



    what do you mean?

    Ok firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the hymns song during liturgy and the ones song externally like during a youth meeting………..there are some really nice ones like I place my soul, shine Jesus shine, Mary did you know and heaps more….but I don’t like the idea of hymns like above stated sung during church, that is converting the church from a unique and traditional church to a Anglican church for example (don’t jump on me, that’s the only thing that came to mind)……in saying that some churches sing these types while communion is happening and this is a English church……….and as many have sed…….there’s no point in singing a Coptic hymn or even Arabic if u don’t understand it or grasp the meaning of it…….

    So during church NO otherwise your moving away from the essence of the Coptic Church
    External events like youth meetings YES…..i think its ok

    And finally I agree with Amoussa01…….not much to worry about we can only pray the church strengthens over time and guys……….your starting to sound like weener girls………:P
  • ok, so, we've talked about "I wanna touch u, I wanna see your face, I wanna hold you... "

    Then, if the Good Lord has mercy on us, they may sing any of the following alternatives:

    "Its all about u Lord"

    "I can see clearly now all my sins have gone".

    "I can fly on eagles' wings"

    "I'll never know, how much it cost, to put my sins on that cross..."

    "I'll be there"

    "You've got that loving feeling, yes that lovin feelin".

    "My God"
  • and your point being?
    where are you getting these songs from??? ive never for the life of me heard them b4, it sounds like a issue with churches in france or what ever church your refering to not a wholistic one
  • My point being that ALL the songs they sing are lame. Very lame.

    You said that u thought it was only ONE song... no.. they are all silly.

    Look: "I can fly now on eagles wings" ... what is THAT?
    its all romantic stuff...

  • Perhaps the second sermon under the following link will give some clarification of why these protestant hymns aren't wrong per se, but liturgic worship simply is better ;D

    http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=132&Itemid=26
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Awwwwww Matt, way to ruin such an inane argument.  ;)
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