[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68464#msg68464 date=1173732725] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I agree that we are corrupt, and that we will not cease from corruption until we finally make it home to God. I just don't think so negatively about mankind, that's all.
Κηφᾶς, it's either corrupt or not. Christ said let your yes be yes, and no be no.
We have been made in the image and likeness of God. What an honour!
yes but we have taking the honor and turned into disgrace and death. Christ came, abolished the death, but the disgrace still there until we actually get into Paradise after our death.
it's either corrupt or not. Christ said let your yes be yes, and no be no.
I don't think I ever said we weren't corrupt. I just hold mankind in higher regard than you. I don't think either of us are wrong, we just have differing views on humanity.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68469#msg68469 date=1173734777] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
it's either corrupt or not. Christ said let your yes be yes, and no be no.
I don't think I ever said we weren't corrupt. I just hold mankind in higher regard than you. I don't think either of us are wrong, we just have differing views on humanity.
and they ask why don't we have unity. i guess it's going to be the same way for the rest of the topic. my view and urs.
and they ask why don't we have unity. i guess it's going to be the same way for the rest of the topic. my view and urs.
I wouldn't go that far. We can have unity without uniformity. I think it's important to separate those two concepts. You and I are distinct individuals with distinct viewpoints and that is how God created us and wants us to be. I seriously doubt that God wants us to all be clones who think the same and act the same and such. But I think this is another topic entirely :D.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68473#msg68473 date=1173735145] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
and they ask why don't we have unity. i guess it's going to be the same way for the rest of the topic. my view and urs.
I wouldn't go that far. We can have unity without uniformity. I think it's important to separate those two concepts. You and I are distinct individuals with distinct viewpoints and that is how God created us and wants us to be. I seriously doubt that God wants us to all be clones who think the same and act the same and such. But I think this is another topic entirely :D.
God would want us to be diffrent but not towards Him. yes He did give each of us a chracteristack but to not to used in His ways that He gave is us to get to Him. don't forget the "distinct viewpoints" are what brought oour christian church to saparate.
Hi to all, I am not quite sure if I'm in the right section but I'll ask my question anyway. I recently came across a verse in the Gospel of Matthew which I am not sure I completely understand its meaning, I hope someone could healp clearify it for me:
Matthew chapter 10 verse 34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Someone told me that the sword is refered to conquering the devil...but I am still not quite sure...
This is taken from H.H. Pope Shenouda's book So Many Years with the Problems of People - Part 1: Bible Questions
Question:
How did Christ that loves peace and is the prince of peace say " Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. "For I have come to set a man against his father " (Matt. 10:34-35)?
Answer:
He meant the sword that befell the believers (Christians) because of their faith. In fact the start of Christianity incited the sword of the Roman empire, the Jews and the pagan philosophers against the believers. The saying of the Lord "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service." (John 16:2) was fulfilled. The martyrdom era which lasted till the reign of Constantine is a proof for that. There was also the division that happened between the members of the family because of the faith of some members while the others remained unbelievers.
For example, a son would believe in Christianity, so his father opposed him; or a daughter believed then her mother antagonised her. This way the division finds its way to the family between those who accepted the faith and those family members who opposed it, as the Bible said "Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." (Luke 12:53).
Often the believer was faced with a tense pressure, even fight from his household members to forsake his faith. Therefore, the Lord continued his warning "and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. " (Matt.10:36-37). He spoke about the sword against the faith not the sword in the public relations.
Therefore, His saying "I did not come to bring peace but a sword" was directly followed by His saying "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 10:33)
The sword can be an element in establishing and applying the. spiritual Christian ethics.
A division can occur between a religious girl and her mother about the subject of decency in clothing and make up. The same division can occur between a son and his father about the subject of serving the church or devoting one's life to serving the Lord or about health and fasting, or many other sides of Christian behaviour and in all that, "A man's foes will be those of his own household..." Of the normal relation between people, the Lord said in the sermon on the mount: "Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God." (Matt. 5:9).
The Lord Christ was called "Prince of Peace" (Is. 9:6). When the angels announced His birth they said "Peace on earth" (Luke 2:14). He said to His disciples "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (John 14:27). The Bible says " Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." (James 3:18), and "The fruit of the Spirit is love, Joy, peace. (Gal. 5:22).
The so-called "scriptures"; better and more accurately 'The Holy Scriptures' is the ineffable word of God.
Thus it is is the bible verses in total as well as much more that is revealed beyond the bible to the Holy Church by way of the Holy Spirit the paraclete (or comforter of the true beleivers only) without conflict with the bible; but to elevate its truths.These words are present in the teachings of the holy fathers of the one holy universal and apostolic church of God; catholic (no to mean roman catholic) and orthodox.
In simple terms however when we orthodox say the term scripture we mean the bible in its entirety.
[quote author=Amdetsion link=topic=4953.msg68592#msg68592 date=1173908155] The so-called "scriptures"; better and more accurately 'The Holy Scriptures' is the ineffable word of God.
The definition of ineffable is:
in·ef·fa·ble –adjective 1. incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible 2. not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable
Now, how exactly is the Scripture ineffable if it is written down using words, so that we can read and understand? Words are used to express the thoughts and ideas of men inspired by the Holy Spirit to convey the message of Salvation of all mankind. You've lost me here.
If I may add something, I think what Cephas means (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the bible is not the word of God in the same sense that the two tablets of the ten commandments were the word of God. The bible is of course still the word of God in the sense that it is inspired by God and includes the entire message of Christ. In regards to the bible revealing a human bias, I agree. An example would be the two books of Chronicles, which i believe were written by Jeremiah. These books are mostly historical, and It is obvious that they contain a certain journalistic twist, which can be observed in the diction used in many instances. I also have a question. In discussing the prophetic nature of scripture, is it possible that we are incorrectly assuming that time is linear? That is to say that we have no evidence that in God's eyes time is linear. In fact, certain verses in the bible suggest that to God time is circular. I ask this because I believe that to God, being omniscient and omnipresent, time is meaningless. Also, I know that linear time is something the human brain uses to keep track of events; it is not necessarily the only notion of time.
If I may add something, I think what Cephas means (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the bible is not the word of God in the same sense that the two tablets of the ten commandments were the word of God. The bible is of course still the word of God in the sense that it is inspired by God and includes the entire message of Christ.
YES! You are on the right track here. With the exception of the last sentence, simply because I distinguish the words of God from something inspired by God. To me, these two concepts are not the same. But other than that, you are exactly right.
I also have a question. In discussing the prophetic nature of scripture, is it possible that we are incorrectly assuming that time is linear? That is to say that we have no evidence that in God's eyes time is linear. In fact, certain verses in the bible suggest that to God time is circular. I ask this because I believe that to God, being omniscient and omnipresent, time is meaningless. Also, I know that linear time is something the human brain uses to keep track of events; it is not necessarily the only notion of time.
I do think that we, as humans, view time in a linear fashion. And since the writings of these prophecies were done by men, for men, I think that we can safely say that this assumption is valid. But you're right, in the case of God, time is not 'linear' in the sense that it is for us. I was actually discussing this with some of my sunday school kids and one of them provided a wonderful example. Say the course of human history is a line. As humans, we exist and live within this line. Thus, we cannot see the future, and all we can recall is the past. With God, He stands outside of the line, so He has a complete view of the line in it entirety. So that is why, God does not 'foresee' the future, He sees it. He has before Him, the past, present and future all together and sees it all happening. We use the term 'foresee', because we are bound within time, and thus, any statement about the future is considered 'foreknowledge', but for God, He's already there.
10 Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue." 11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say." 13 But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it." 14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you. 15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him. 17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it."
Matthew 24 (and in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33) 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
What Amdetsion replied is correct, in these meanings: the words of God are of the highest possible Wisdom, obviously unalterable, and that people cannot possibly speak or write the words of God by themselves.
[quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=4953.msg68605#msg68605 date=1173929377] If I may add something, I think what Cephas means (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the bible is not the word of God in the same sense that the two tablets of the ten commandments were the word of God. The bible is of course still the word of God in the sense that it is inspired by God and includes the entire message of Christ. you can't just take the bible in a literl way of uderstanding. those 2 tablets ur talkin about are very holy that when people touched the ark of the covennat which they are in it were killed. how would be touch a book that is written in God's hands.
In regards to the bible revealing a human bias, I agree. An example would be the two books of Chronicles, which i believe were written by Jeremiah. These books are mostly historical, and It is obvious that they contain a certain journalistic twist, which can be observed in the diction used in many instances.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68620#msg68620 date=1173962218] you can't just take the bible in a literl way of uderstanding. those 2 tablets ur talkin about are very holy that when people touched the ark of the covennat which they are in it were killed. how would be touch a book that is written in God's hands.
Firstly, the Bible can be read in three ways: strictly literally, strictly symbolically, and a balance between the literal and the symbolic. The latter is how I personally read the Bible. There are elements that should be taken strictly as written, and there are sections that are entirely symbolic. That being said, the original tablets of the ten commandments written by the finger of God were broken by Moses after he got them when he came down the mountain and saw the children of Israel worshiping the golden calf. So, the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant at the time that David was transporting them were the ones re-written by Moses. That being said, Moses had no problem carrying the tablets after God Himself wrote on them. The idea was whether a person was pure or not before touching something that had been sanctified.
than why r we reading a history book??
Because one can learn from history. Learning about the history and customs of the Israelites helps to put the books of the Bible in their proper context when we study them. It gives us a better understanding of what went on then.
10 Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue." 11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say." 13 But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it." 14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you. 15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him. 17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it."
Matthew 24 (and in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33) 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
What Amdetsion replied is correct, in these meanings: the words of God are of the highest possible Wisdom, obviously unalterable, and that people cannot possibly speak or write the words of God by themselves.
Peace and God bless you.
Everything you have just quoted is in reference to the spoken word that was uttered in the moment. It does not refer to the written word which was taken down some time after the events that were documented transpired. What was written down was taken from memory with the help of the Holy Spirit in recovering these memories. Do you see the difference?
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68627#msg68627 date=1173965629] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68620#msg68620 date=1173962218] you can't just take the bible in a literl way of uderstanding. those 2 tablets ur talkin about are very holy that when people touched the ark of the covennat which they are in it were killed.
2nd Q: how would be touch a book that is written in God's hands.
Firstly, the Bible can be read in three ways: strictly literally, strictly symbolically, and a balance between the literal and the symbolic. The latter is how I personally read the Bible. There are elements that should be taken strictly as written, and there are sections that are entirely symbolic. That being said, the original tablets of the ten commandments written by the finger of God were broken by Moses after he got them when he came down the mountain and saw the children of Israel worshiping the golden calf. So, the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant at the time that David was transporting them were the ones re-written by Moses. That being said, Moses had no problem carrying the tablets after God Himself wrote on them. The idea was whether a person was pure or not before touching something that had been sanctified.
didn't answer my second question.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68628#msg68628 date=1173967106] Everything you have just quoted is in reference to the spoken word that was uttered in the moment. It does not refer to the written word which was taken down some time after the events that were documented transpired. What was written down was taken from memory with the help of the Holy Spirit in recovering these memories. Do you see the difference?
and the spoken word was written. and that's why we have it today.
That being said, Moses had no problem carrying the tablets after God Himself wrote on them. The idea was whether a person was pure or not before touching something that had been sanctified.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350] and the spoken word was written. and that's why we have it today.
The writing often occurred several years after the events transpired. Being human, we sometimes forget things, which is why the Holy Spirit, which inspired these men, helped them to recall the key events.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68630#msg68630 date=1173967512] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I did answer your second question:
That being said, Moses had no problem carrying the tablets after God Himself wrote on them. The idea was whether a person was pure or not before touching something that had been sanctified.
santified through.................. if you tell Christ, than what about those who are new to the faith. they belive first in the bible and than get baptised and become believers.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68631#msg68631 date=1173967744] [quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350] and the spoken word was written. and that's why we have it today.
The writing often occurred several years after the events transpired. Being human, we sometimes forget things, which is why the Holy Spirit, which inspired these men, helped them to recall the key events.
will here you're not giving a dafinite answer by saying often. and by saying humans first, your saying that the humans, who ever in the OT, wanted to write what had happend in there time, which goes back to a history book idea, but couldn't so they asked for God's help.................isn't this what you're saying. of if it is, that's dafinitely wrong because it is the book of God who He put for us a the way to salvation.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68633#msg68633 date=1173975336] santified through.................. if you tell Christ, than what about those who are new to the faith. they belive first in the bible and than get baptised and become believers.
Sanctified through the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies the whole of creation. That is His role. The Holy Spirit was present in the OT, when kings and prophets were anointed. That was a symbol of our baptism in this day and age. I'm just addressing you issue about mankind being able to hold a book written by God Himself. You were saying how could anyone be able to touch it. I'm simply saying that if one is sanctified with the Holy Spirit, they can touch such a book.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350] will here you're not giving a dafinite answer by saying often. and by saying humans first, your saying that the humans, who ever in the OT, wanted to write what had happend in there time, which goes back to a history book idea, but couldn't so they asked for God's help.................isn't this what you're saying. of if it is, that's dafinitely wrong because it is the book of God who He put for us a the way to salvation.
You don't like the word often? Tayeb, all the books in the Bible were written several years (sometimes centuries) after the events they talk about occurred. And yes, I am saying that the humans did want to write down what happened in their time. While oral tradition was a huge part of the culture, the written tradition was also practiced, and that is why we have the OT scriptures now.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68640#msg68640 date=1173979003] [quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68633#msg68633 date=1173975336] if you tell Christ, than what about those who are new to the faith. they belive first in the bible and than get baptised and become believers.
Sanctified through the Holy Spirit....
i'll get back to you about the Holy Spirit part. please answer my second qustion about the new believers.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350] will here you're not giving a dafinite answer by saying often. and by saying humans first, your saying that the humans, who ever in the OT, wanted to write what had happend in there time, which goes back to a history book idea, but couldn't so they asked for God's help.................isn't this what you're saying. of if it is, that's dafinitely wrong because it is the book of God who He put for us a the way to salvation.
You don't like the word often? Tayeb,
i don't like it when it refares to God's will.
all the books in the Bible were written several years (sometimes centuries) after the events they talk about occurred. And yes, I am saying that the humans did want to write down what happened in their time. While oral tradition was a huge part of the culture, the written tradition was also practiced, and that is why we have the OT scriptures now.
Oral tradition is in fact one of our church sources of rites and dogmos. But saying that humans are the ones who chose to write the "bible" is wrong and unchristian. Κηφ ς, you just lost what you said before in the post since now you just said that is this just a history book and not from God. if it was written by them and they wanted to write, than why arent we beliving in them instead of God. how about you tell me what's the diffrent between the "bible" ur talking about (since i don't think that we're talking about the same one any more), any other history book that have history of ppl to leave for the generations after for good........................
please answer my second qustion about the new believers.
Not sure what your question about new believers is. They get sanctified and receive the Holy Spirit as a result of the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation.
i don't like it when it refares to God's will.
The word 'often' was not used in reference to God's Will. Not sure where you got that from.
But saying that humans are the ones who chose to write the "bible" is wrong and unchristian.
Why exactly is it wrong and unchristian? I'd like to read your views on that.
Κηφ ς, you just lost what you said before in the post since now you just said that is this just a history book and not from God
What are you talking about? When did I ever say that the Bible was not from God? Have you even read any of my posts? I'm saying the Bible is not the word of God, but the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that because God inspired the writing of the Bible, that does not make it the word of God.
Please take better care in actually reading what I've written.
Luke 10:25-28 25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
It is how we read the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who is its supreme Source, that matter.
Regarding the spoken and the written words: you cannot apply your differential rule because we all know that both have come from the same Source. Furthermore the Holy Trinity is not confined to a specific time lapse as we all understand, plus God knows how the Word will reach all people.
He will not change, divide, alter or allow alteration of His own words (except may be apparently, inside our unwilling to understand superficial human minds). He aims at giving us His Graces and His Love, always doing and saying everything wisely (including using some style variation, contextual references etc.) simply in the act of Him seeking towards us lowly humans. He does so while exercising His (extreme, eternal) Wisdom and for completing His Holy Will through some chosen men for spreading the Word to other men, that is to convince us, gain and deepen our faith by various approaches while keeping the same High Wisdom.
Matthew 5:17-18 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
We need always to pray asking the Lord for the guidance of His Holy Spirit when we read the Bible, even the historical verses in the Holy Scriptures: they are there for spiritual purpose. We should listen and read sermons explaining the Bible books and frequently ask our FOC. Note here too that we find many sermons were recorded then later partially or wholy (re)written or compiled in books.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68654#msg68654 date=1173985628] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
please answer my second qustion about the new believers.
Not sure what your question about new believers is. They get sanctified and receive the Holy Spirit as a result of the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation.
what happends is, the new person who wants to join the faith is first taught the bible which they have to believe in first before presenting themself to be baptised. if they are not sanctified, how will they learn the bible and read it.
i don't like it when it refares to God's will.
The word 'often' was not used in reference to God's Will. Not sure where you got that from.
i guess u can ignore that.
But saying that humans are the ones who chose to write the "bible" is wrong and unchristian.
Why exactly is it wrong and unchristian? I'd like to read your views on that.
we believe that the bible was sent to us from God through His men to prepare us to life after heaven with Him. that’s why some people use the word B I B L E to spell out " Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. to add to that, it was giving to us by God. God is the main person who wants to bring us back to Him. am not saying that the ppl who wrote the bible don't want us to go to heaven. But it is God who gave us the way(s) to salvation through the bible, His Word that will never fail. even after He came and abolished death, He still have the bible for us to guide us to the Paradise we once were (As John_S2000 included in some verses). Now by saying the humans were the ones who wrote it by there choice, is just wrong and unacceptable.
Κηφ ς, you just lost what you said before in the post since now you just said that is this just a history book and not from God
What are you talking about? When did I ever say that the Bible was not from God? Have you even read any of my posts? I'm saying the Bible is not the word of God, but the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that because God inspired the writing of the Bible, that does not make it the word of God.
by saying that it was desired by the humans to do so (above), ur denying the fact that it wasn't fully from God.
Exodus 4:16 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
This is how God decided it for a great and wise purpose. Note how inseparable and so close this relationship that exists between "mouth" and God who gives the words. God gives here a clear example of how He puts words in his prophet's mouth, quite simply applied with the two brothers for the sake of our understanding.
Likewise, He is the same God who later put the words in his prophet's writing hand.
what happends is, the new person who wants to join the faith is first taught the bible which they have to believe in first before presenting themself to be baptised. if they are not sanctified, how will they learn the bible and read it.
As I understand it, the first thing a catechumen is taught is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the Bible. Granted, they are probably given a Bible to read, however, they aren't just left to fend for themselves. They have a spiritual guide (usually the priest of the church that the catechumen is attending) who guides their reading and answers any questions they may have.
we believe that the bible was sent to us from God through His men to prepare us to life after heaven with Him.
I have never denied this at any point in time.
to add to that, it was giving to us by God
Once again, I have never denied this.
But it is God who gave us the way(s) to salvation through the bible, His Word that will never fail.
Here is where we don't see eye to eye. I agree with everything you have said in this statement except for the bolded part. Once again, the Bible contains the words God spoke to man (i.e. prophecies, teachings and such), but the Bible as a whole is not the word of God. It is a collection of books and letters, written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Please refer back to my post where I talk about the analogy of the poem commentary.
Now by saying the humans were the ones who wrote it by there choice, is just wrong and unacceptable.
By you saying that man did not have a choice is just wrong and unacceptable. Man has always been and will alway be given a choice. Again, God does not hijack a person's free will.
by saying that it was desired by the humans to do so (above), ur denying the fact that it wasn't fully from God.
How exactly am I denying that it wasn't fully from God? If the Holy Spirit inspired the authors to write the texts they did, how is God not fully involved. The writing of inspired text involves cooperation between the writer and the Holy Spirit within the writer in the actual writing of the text. The authors were actively participating in the writing of the books and letters that we find in the Bible today. Thus, these writings are theirs under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
If God, at any point in time, took away our free will there would no point to Christianity. It would invalidate the essential premise of Christianity, namely that we made the choice to sin, and he came to allow us to come to him on our own accord. Given this, it is obvious that the evangelists and prophets obviously must have made the decision to write the bible. Also, they must have made the decision to continue writing their particular books; this means that one must assume the Holy Spirit did not force them to write anything or prevent them from writing anything. They were inspired by the holy spirit, not possessed by it. the holy spirit made suggestions, it did not demand. Because of this, it could reasonably be assumed that just as they each wrote in their own styles, they carried with them their own humanity -and inherently, bias- to the text.
Comments
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I agree that we are corrupt, and that we will not cease from corruption until we finally make it home to God. I just don't think so negatively about mankind, that's all.
Κηφᾶς,
it's either corrupt or not. Christ said let your yes be yes, and no be no. yes but we have taking the honor and turned into disgrace and death. Christ came, abolished the death, but the disgrace still there until we actually get into Paradise after our death.
Please pray for me.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic] I don't think I ever said we weren't corrupt. I just hold mankind in higher regard than you. I don't think either of us are wrong, we just have differing views on humanity.
and they ask why don't we have unity. i guess it's going to be the same way for the rest of the topic. my view and urs.
Please pray for me.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic] I wouldn't go that far. We can have unity without uniformity. I think it's important to separate those two concepts. You and I are distinct individuals with distinct viewpoints and that is how God created us and wants us to be. I seriously doubt that God wants us to all be clones who think the same and act the same and such. But I think this is another topic entirely :D.
God would want us to be diffrent but not towards Him. yes He did give each of us a chracteristack but to not to used in His ways that He gave is us to get to Him. don't forget the "distinct viewpoints" are what brought oour christian church to saparate.
if this another topic, open a new one than.
Matthew chapter 10 verse 34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Someone told me that the sword is refered to conquering the devil...but I am still not quite sure...
Thank you.
This is taken from H.H. Pope Shenouda's book So Many Years with the Problems of People - Part 1: Bible Questions Please pray for me.
God bless you, this is more than I needed! :) Thank u
please start a new topic next time.
Thus it is is the bible verses in total as well as much more that is revealed beyond the bible to the Holy Church by way of the Holy Spirit the paraclete (or comforter of the true beleivers only) without conflict with the bible; but to elevate its truths.These words are present in the teachings of the holy fathers of the one holy universal and apostolic church of God; catholic (no to mean roman catholic) and orthodox.
In simple terms however when we orthodox say the term scripture we mean the bible in its entirety.
God bless you
Dcn Amde Tsion
[quote author=Amdetsion link=topic=4953.msg68592#msg68592 date=1173908155]
The so-called "scriptures"; better and more accurately 'The Holy Scriptures' is the ineffable word of God.
The definition of ineffable is: Now, how exactly is the Scripture ineffable if it is written down using words, so that we can read and understand? Words are used to express the thoughts and ideas of men inspired by the Holy Spirit to convey the message of Salvation of all mankind. You've lost me here.
Please pray for me
In regards to the bible revealing a human bias, I agree. An example would be the two books of Chronicles, which i believe were written by Jeremiah. These books are mostly historical, and It is obvious that they contain a certain journalistic twist, which can be observed in the diction used in many instances.
I also have a question. In discussing the prophetic nature of scripture, is it possible that we are incorrectly assuming that time is linear? That is to say that we have no evidence that in God's eyes time is linear. In fact, certain verses in the bible suggest that to God time is circular. I ask this because I believe that to God, being omniscient and omnipresent, time is meaningless. Also, I know that linear time is something the human brain uses to keep track of events; it is not necessarily the only notion of time.
Please pray for me.
10 Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue."
11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say."
13 But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."
14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you. 15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him. 17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it."
Matthew 24 (and in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33)
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
What Amdetsion replied is correct, in these meanings: the words of God are of the highest possible Wisdom, obviously unalterable, and that people cannot possibly speak or write the words of God by themselves.
Peace and God bless you.
If I may add something, I think what Cephas means (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the bible is not the word of God in the same sense that the two tablets of the ten commandments were the word of God. The bible is of course still the word of God in the sense that it is inspired by God and includes the entire message of Christ.
you can't just take the bible in a literl way of uderstanding. those 2 tablets ur talkin about are very holy that when people touched the ark of the covennat which they are in it were killed.
how would be touch a book that is written in God's hands. than why r we reading a history book??
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68620#msg68620 date=1173962218]
you can't just take the bible in a literl way of uderstanding. those 2 tablets ur talkin about are very holy that when people touched the ark of the covennat which they are in it were killed.
how would be touch a book that is written in God's hands.
Firstly, the Bible can be read in three ways: strictly literally, strictly symbolically, and a balance between the literal and the symbolic. The latter is how I personally read the Bible. There are elements that should be taken strictly as written, and there are sections that are entirely symbolic. That being said, the original tablets of the ten commandments written by the finger of God were broken by Moses after he got them when he came down the mountain and saw the children of Israel worshiping the golden calf. So, the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant at the time that David was transporting them were the ones re-written by Moses. That being said, Moses had no problem carrying the tablets after God Himself wrote on them. The idea was whether a person was pure or not before touching something that had been sanctified. Because one can learn from history. Learning about the history and customs of the Israelites helps to put the books of the Bible in their proper context when we study them. It gives us a better understanding of what went on then.
Please pray for me.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=4953.msg68617#msg68617 date=1173960993]
Exodus 4:10-17
10 Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue."
11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ? 12 Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say."
13 But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."
14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you. 15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him. 17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it."
Matthew 24 (and in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33)
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
What Amdetsion replied is correct, in these meanings: the words of God are of the highest possible Wisdom, obviously unalterable, and that people cannot possibly speak or write the words of God by themselves.
Peace and God bless you.
Everything you have just quoted is in reference to the spoken word that was uttered in the moment. It does not refer to the written word which was taken down some time after the events that were documented transpired. What was written down was taken from memory with the help of the Holy Spirit in recovering these memories. Do you see the difference?
Pleas pray for me.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68620#msg68620 date=1173962218]
you can't just take the bible in a literl way of uderstanding. those 2 tablets ur talkin about are very holy that when people touched the ark of the covennat which they are in it were killed.
2nd Q: how would be touch a book that is written in God's hands.
Firstly, the Bible can be read in three ways: strictly literally, strictly symbolically, and a balance between the literal and the symbolic. The latter is how I personally read the Bible. There are elements that should be taken strictly as written, and there are sections that are entirely symbolic. That being said, the original tablets of the ten commandments written by the finger of God were broken by Moses after he got them when he came down the mountain and saw the children of Israel worshiping the golden calf. So, the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant at the time that David was transporting them were the ones re-written by Moses. That being said, Moses had no problem carrying the tablets after God Himself wrote on them. The idea was whether a person was pure or not before touching something that had been sanctified.
didn't answer my second question.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68628#msg68628 date=1173967106]
Everything you have just quoted is in reference to the spoken word that was uttered in the moment. It does not refer to the written word which was taken down some time after the events that were documented transpired. What was written down was taken from memory with the help of the Holy Spirit in recovering these memories. Do you see the difference?
and the spoken word was written. and that's why we have it today.
I did answer your second question: Please pray for me.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350]
and the spoken word was written. and that's why we have it today.
The writing often occurred several years after the events transpired. Being human, we sometimes forget things, which is why the Holy Spirit, which inspired these men, helped them to recall the key events.
Please pray for me.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I did answer your second question: santified through..................
if you tell Christ, than what about those who are new to the faith. they belive first in the bible and than get baptised and become believers.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=4953.msg68631#msg68631 date=1173967744]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350]
and the spoken word was written. and that's why we have it today.
The writing often occurred several years after the events transpired. Being human, we sometimes forget things, which is why the Holy Spirit, which inspired these men, helped them to recall the key events.
will here you're not giving a dafinite answer by saying often. and by saying humans first, your saying that the humans, who ever in the OT, wanted to write what had happend in there time, which goes back to a history book idea, but couldn't so they asked for God's help.................isn't this what you're saying.
of if it is, that's dafinitely wrong because it is the book of God who He put for us a the way to salvation.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68633#msg68633 date=1173975336]
santified through..................
if you tell Christ, than what about those who are new to the faith. they belive first in the bible and than get baptised and become believers.
Sanctified through the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies the whole of creation. That is His role. The Holy Spirit was present in the OT, when kings and prophets were anointed. That was a symbol of our baptism in this day and age. I'm just addressing you issue about mankind being able to hold a book written by God Himself. You were saying how could anyone be able to touch it. I'm simply saying that if one is sanctified with the Holy Spirit, they can touch such a book.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68629#msg68629 date=1173967350]
will here you're not giving a dafinite answer by saying often. and by saying humans first, your saying that the humans, who ever in the OT, wanted to write what had happend in there time, which goes back to a history book idea, but couldn't so they asked for God's help.................isn't this what you're saying.
of if it is, that's dafinitely wrong because it is the book of God who He put for us a the way to salvation.
You don't like the word often? Tayeb, all the books in the Bible were written several years (sometimes centuries) after the events they talk about occurred. And yes, I am saying that the humans did want to write down what happened in their time. While oral tradition was a huge part of the culture, the written tradition was also practiced, and that is why we have the OT scriptures now.
Please pray for me.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4953.msg68633#msg68633 date=1173975336]
if you tell Christ, than what about those who are new to the faith. they belive first in the bible and than get baptised and become believers.
Sanctified through the Holy Spirit....
i'll get back to you about the Holy Spirit part.
please answer my second qustion about the new believers. You don't like the word often? Tayeb,
i don't like it when it refares to God's will. Oral tradition is in fact one of our church sources of rites and dogmos. But saying that humans are the ones who chose to write the "bible" is wrong and unchristian. Κηφ ς, you just lost what you said before in the post since now you just said that is this just a history book and not from God. if it was written by them and they wanted to write, than why arent we beliving in them instead of God.
how about you tell me what's the diffrent between the "bible" ur talking about (since i don't think that we're talking about the same one any more), any other history book that have history of ppl to leave for the generations after for good........................
Please take better care in actually reading what I've written.
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
It is how we read the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who is its supreme Source, that matter.
Regarding the spoken and the written words: you cannot apply your differential rule because we all know that both have come from the same Source. Furthermore the Holy Trinity is not confined to a specific time lapse as we all understand, plus God knows how the Word will reach all people.
He will not change, divide, alter or allow alteration of His own words (except may be apparently, inside our unwilling to understand superficial human minds). He aims at giving us His Graces and His Love, always doing and saying everything wisely (including using some style variation, contextual references etc.) simply in the act of Him seeking towards us lowly humans. He does so while exercising His (extreme, eternal) Wisdom and for completing His Holy Will through some chosen men for spreading the Word to other men, that is to convince us, gain and deepen our faith by various approaches while keeping the same High Wisdom.
Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
We need always to pray asking the Lord for the guidance of His Holy Spirit when we read the Bible, even the historical verses in the Holy Scriptures: they are there for spiritual purpose. We should listen and read sermons explaining the Bible books and frequently ask our FOC. Note here too that we find many sermons were recorded then later partially or wholy (re)written or compiled in books.
GBU
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic] Not sure what your question about new believers is. They get sanctified and receive the Holy Spirit as a result of the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation.
what happends is, the new person who wants to join the faith is first taught the bible which they have to believe in first before presenting themself to be baptised. if they are not sanctified, how will they learn the bible and read it. i guess u can ignore that. we believe that the bible was sent to us from God through His men to prepare us to life after heaven with Him. that’s why some people use the word B I B L E to spell out " Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. to add to that, it was giving to us by God. God is the main person who wants to bring us back to Him. am not saying that the ppl who wrote the bible don't want us to go to heaven. But it is God who gave us the way(s) to salvation through the bible, His Word that will never fail. even after He came and abolished death, He still have the bible for us to guide us to the Paradise we once were (As John_S2000 included in some verses).
Now by saying the humans were the ones who wrote it by there choice, is just wrong and unacceptable. by saying that it was desired by the humans to do so (above), ur denying the fact that it wasn't fully from God.
16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
This is how God decided it for a great and wise purpose. Note how inseparable and so close this relationship that exists between "mouth" and God who gives the words. God gives here a clear example of how He puts words in his prophet's mouth, quite simply applied with the two brothers for the sake of our understanding.
Likewise, He is the same God who later put the words in his prophet's writing hand.
GBU both Κηφᾶς and minagir.
lol, how did this phenomenon occur?
Please pray for me.
Given this, it is obvious that the evangelists and prophets obviously must have made the decision to write the bible. Also, they must have made the decision to continue writing their particular books; this means that one must assume the Holy Spirit did not force them to write anything or prevent them from writing anything. They were inspired by the holy spirit, not possessed by it. the holy spirit made suggestions, it did not demand. Because of this, it could reasonably be assumed that just as they each wrote in their own styles, they carried with them their own humanity -and inherently, bias- to the text.