God's Direction

edited December 1969 in Random Issues
Hi,

For those of you who are not aware, our Catholic brothers, and undoubtedly us too, are being threatened by a new law : "The Equality Act"; its a law which means that any vendor should not descriminate to whom he/she is selling goods to. That means that for catholic adoption agencies, they will be obliged to give kids to be adopted by homosexual couples.

I'd like to discuss with you your feelings upon what this will mean for us.

* If the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, and is an abomination; then will this imply that any Christian holding a Bible have "homophobic"literature in his possession (which is a crime?)
* Gays being able to adopt legally, and on top that, the Church is being forced to either condone it, or change its "ethics"on homosexuality; what do u all think of this? I find this very very disturbing.
* WHat will this do to the Church, the body of Christ? How will such laws effect our organisation and unity ??
* If we preach that homosexuality is wrong - a sin- this would mean we could be arrested for that! It was done before. A couple were arrested for preaching , through the distribution of pamphlets, that homosexuality is a sin, and an abomination.

Is this not Sodam and Gomorrah legalised???

Is there anyone here NOT disturbed by this???? Such laws have saddened my heart extremely.

It began when the Anglicans ordained a gay bishop... then since that, everything went down hill.

Comments

  • Well i have never heard that law and i don't think that such a law would ever exist in the US. so i really don't know how to respond to such a law being passed in where you live. it will be a sad, sad day when ever they pass that law
  • What part of the world is this rule coming into place? I wouldnt agree to this rule.

    What can we do? We cant preach homosexuality and we cant break the law either. :( :( :( :(
  • Here:

    Read it and weep:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6289301.stm


    Basically, gays could not only adopt before, but now they cannot be refused adoption on the grounds that they are gay!!

    So, two men who wish to adopt a child will be given the exact same priority and consideration as a male/female couple.

    This thread isnt to shock you, but to discuss the future direction in the Church. What happens in the UK is only a matter of time before such policies reach other western countries. What will be the impact on such policies on the Church? If we teach our children therefore that homosexuality is wrong; before the eyes of the law in the UK, this is a crime: a "hate crime".

    Even if we say "we love homosexuals, but hate homosexuality", then this is also a hate crime because it discriminates against the sexuality of a group of people.

    If this i the case, where then would be the place of any law-abiding CHristian in a country which allows such equality laws??

    Also, where is our voice??

    I think we need to pray for this. Its a sad situation to be in; and it scares the life out of me just thinking of two gay men raising a young child. What would they teach him??

    What is this sickness and perversion??

    Please tell me, what is it like in the states? Can gays adopt children?? If they can get married and have "civil unions", it will only be a matter of time before they can adopt children.

    Any of us who left islamic Egypt to come to "western" Christian Europe must be in a state of mourning on such news.

  • i think ur query about young children being in the care of homosexual parents is already a presenting issue, hetrosexual couples separate and turn to same sex after they've had children which is disturbing.

    research clearly suggests how much of a disruption this creates in their lives, wen their parents or adopted parents are homosexual. some young people leave home or follow in their parents footsteps. its difficult as is with societal and peer pressure without extra harrassment about ur 'gay' mom or dad. no young children shud go thru such hardship, on the other hand one can say childen learn to adapt and accept life as it is.

    prayers indeed are needed for this crisis prevalent amongst us, and clearly the churches (as they are) need to continue advocating for a fair and just society where people are not arrested to preaching (thats abit ridiculous). thats also contradicting, u cant discriminate against ppl based on sex or wateva yet u can arrest them for speaking out (there's sumfin wrong there)

    in australia we have anti discrimiantion laws which i think are good as it provides all with an equal opportunity to employment for example regardless of what they look like or where their from. but thats not saying that it still doesnt happen :(
  • [quote author=kerestina link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66888 date=1170257282]
    i think ur query about young children being in the care of homosexual parents is already a presenting issue, hetrosexual couples separate and turn to same sex after they've had children which is disturbing.

    research clearly suggests how much of a disruption this creates in their lives, wen their parents or adopted parents are homosexual. some young people leave home or follow in their parents footsteps. its difficult as is with societal and peer pressure without extra harr***ment about ur 'gay' mom or dad. no young children shud go thru such hardship, on the other hand one can say childen learn to adapt and accept life as it is.

    prayers indeed are needed for this crisis prevalent amongst us, and clearly the churches (as they are) need to continue advocating for a fair and just society where people are not arrested to preaching (thats abit ridiculous). thats also contradicting, u cant discriminate against ppl based on sex or wateva yet u can arrest them for speaking out (there's sumfin wrong there)

    in australia we have anti discrimiantion laws which i think are good as it provides all with an equal opportunity to employment for example regardless of what they look like or where their from. but thats not saying that it still doesnt happen :(




    What does all this mean for the Church? Being taught that this is "wrong" and a "sin" would mean? If any literature expressing any homophobic sentiment is published, it would be considered a hate crime.

    What now? Are we to change our Bibles? the Word of God ? What will happen? I'm VERY SERIOUS.

    All a couple, in the UK, did was just cut and paste a verse from the Bible and publish it. It only stated Saint Paul's words on homosexuality etc. They were arrested for doing that.

    What will be next?
  • I think God uses everything to touch people's hearts to let them know He is Lord. He is the creator of Heaven and Earth; and He has saved them from the calamity of death.

    I just hope that His 2nd coming, awesome and glorious is quick. Im very sad about our situation in this world. Sodom and Gomorrah, that which He destroyed, is now an accepted component of any western culture disguised under the socially accepted terminology :"Political Correctness".

    Has the Church failed in anyway to be the religion of the western civilised / industrialised world for it to be in such a condition??

    Has it failed because we are fragmented? A house divided cannot stand, and we are so clearly divided. The anglicans promoting homosexuality, and the pentecostals crying out against it.

    Somehow, I think we will be judged according to what we have been given. We've allowed our socieites, which we are part of, to condone immorality, and at the same time, deny us the rights of our consciouses in discerning between right and wrong.

    Look at John the Baptist: Christ said there was no one greater than him; and what did He do? He testified that Herod was committing a sin; something that no one else dared to do.

    I think we need to evangelise more, and to testify that homosexuality IS A SIN, and so are MANY many things also.

    Why is it no one in tasbeha.org seems interested in this?? Why is it i am the only person here shocked and saddened by this??
  • * If the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, and is an abomination; then will this imply that any Christian holding a Bible have "homophobic"literature in his possession (which is a crime?)
    * Gays being able to adopt legally, and on top that, the Church is being forced to either condone it, or change its "ethics"on homosexuality; what do u all think of this? I find this very very disturbing.
    * WHat will this do to the Church, the body of Christ? How will such laws effect our organisation and unity ??
    * If we preach that homosexuality is wrong - a sin- this would mean we could be arrested for that! It was done before. A couple were arrested for preaching , through the distribution of pamphlets, that homosexuality is a sin, and an abomination.

    Is this not Sodam and Gomorrah legalised???

    Is there anyone here NOT disturbed by this???? Such laws have saddened my heart extremely.

    It began when the Anglicans ordained a gay bishop... then since that, everything went down hill.

    nothing will effect our church in anyway. HH have stated that before during the time where every one was talkinga bout the divorce thingy in egy.

    it is disturbing to hear about all of this but what can you do. As to Sodam and Gomorrah, it is starting to be. the only diffrence is that in Soddom and Gomorrah, tha people had lust for anything not only a human being.



    [quote author=vassilios link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66890 date=1170269611]
    Why is it no one in tasbeha.org seems interested in this?? Why is it i am the only person here shocked and saddened by this??


    becasue there is nothing you or i or anyone can do about it. there's tons of ppl who are out there that are doing what your saying but that wont change much in the US. the fancy word everyone uses is "freedom" which will just lead them and also part of us in the bottom of hall.
  • [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66891 date=1170272125]
    [quote author=v***ilios link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66890 date=1170269611]
    Why is it no one in tasbeha.org seems interested in this?? Why is it i am the only person here shocked and saddened by this??


    becasue there is nothing you or i or anyone can do about it. there's tons of ppl who are out there that are doing what your saying but that wont change much in the US. the fancy word everyone uses is "freedom" which will just lead them and also part of us in the bottom of hall.


    i disagree, wat happend to people power???? u cant just sit and watch while legislations such as these are being implemented and of which will have a detrimental impact on society and the christian population, ur right our voices may not count much, but as least u do sumfin n leave the rest to God
    i do also think that these are small hurdles that only thru God will be overcome, by uniting now, ur building a stronger church community
  • [quote author=kerestina link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66945 date=1170333808]
    [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66891 date=1170272125]
    [quote author=v***ilios link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66890 date=1170269611]
    Why is it no one in tasbeha.org seems interested in this?? Why is it i am the only person here shocked and saddened by this??


    becasue there is nothing you or i or anyone can do about it. there's tons of ppl who are out there that are doing what your saying but that wont change much in the US. the fancy word everyone uses is "freedom" which will just lead them and also part of us in the bottom of hall.


    i disagree, wat happend to people power???? u cant just sit and watch while legislations such as these are being implemented and of which will have a detrimental impact on society and the christian population, ur right our voices may not count much, but as least u do sumfin n leave the rest to God
    i do also think that these are small hurdles that only thru God will be overcome, by uniting now, ur building a stronger church community


    that's the thing, people's power is the reason behind this. like i said before freedomis key word here. people thank that gays and lesbians are "people" who deserve their rights to. same as rights for muslims, rights for stuff that the government makes laws for without thinking of the consequences.

    you do what ever you can through God, but in the same you have to look at reality and just hope to not fall into the trap of the devil.
  • [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66947 date=1170341837]
    that's the thing, people's power is the reason behind this. like i said before freedomis key word here. people thank that gays and lesbians are "people" who deserve their rights to. same as rights for muslims, rights for stuff that the government makes laws for without thinking of the consequences.

    you do what ever you can through God, but in the same you have to look at reality and just hope to not fall into the trap of the devil.


    Homosexuals are PEOPLE, they are HUMAN BEINGS with needs……….although we despise wat they do we shudnt deny them their basic needs becoz their gay. They have rights to be treated as an individual even though wat their doing is immoral

    We shud not be showing partially towards ppl who don’t believe as we do, yes we don’t agree with them but no we don’t segregate them based on their sin. James chapter two outlines how we shudnt show partiality towards certain ppl or favor them. We want to bring those who r lost closer to Christ not pushing them away

    BUT my concern comes wen the sacraments are meddled with by for example homosexuals marrying or children taken up for adoption, in my eyes that’s WRONG

    We are called to love one another not hate the sinners……….love the person not the sin or wrong but thru prayers and ur actions towards them it is possible to change their mindset or way of life which is leading them astray.
  • [quote author=kerestina link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66987 date=1170419410]
    [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66947 date=1170341837]
    that's the thing, people's power is the reason behind this. like i said before freedomis key word here. people thank that gays and lesbians are "people" who deserve their rights to. same as rights for muslims, rights for stuff that the government makes laws for without thinking of the consequences.

    you do what ever you can through God, but in the same you have to look at reality and just hope to not fall into the trap of the devil.


    Homosexuals are PEOPLE, they are HUMAN BEINGS with needs……….although we despise wat they do we shudnt deny them their basic needs becoz their gay. They have rights to be treated as an individual even though wat their doing is immoral

    We shud not be showing partially towards ppl who don’t believe as we do, yes we don’t agree with them but no we don’t segregate them based on their sin. James chapter two outlines how we shudnt show partiality towards certain ppl or favor them. We want to bring those who r lost closer to Christ not pushing them away

    BUT my concern comes wen the sacraments are meddled with by for example homosexuals marrying or children taken up for adoption, in my eyes that’s WRONG

    We are called to love one another not hate the sinners……….love the person not the sin or wrong but thru prayers and ur actions towards them it is possible to change their mindset or way of life which is leading them astray.


    kerestina,
    now you're talking like the people here in the US. why not give them rights?!!!!!

    yes you are right we do need to do what u've listed above but, not make it more harder for them by acuilty giving them more freedom to stay in the way of sin.

    you're supposed to treat people as they understand. also with a sinner. you have to easy talk him out of the sin till they see the real Light and their hearts are filled with it.
  • [quote author=kerestina link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66987 date=1170419410]
    [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66947 date=1170341837]
    that's the thing, people's power is the reason behind this. like i said before freedomis key word here. people thank that gays and lesbians are "people" who deserve their rights to. same as rights for muslims, rights for stuff that the government makes laws for without thinking of the consequences.

    you do what ever you can through God, but in the same you have to look at reality and just hope to not fall into the trap of the devil.


    Homosexuals are PEOPLE, they are HUMAN BEINGS with needs……….although we despise wat they do we shudnt deny them their basic needs becoz their gay. They have rights to be treated as an individual even though wat their doing is immoral

    We shud not be showing partially towards ppl who don’t believe as we do, yes we don’t agree with them but no we don’t segregate them based on their sin. James chapter two outlines how we shudnt show partiality towards certain ppl or favor them. We want to bring those who r lost closer to Christ not pushing them away

    BUT my concern comes wen the sacraments are meddled with by for example homosexuals marrying or children taken up for adoption, in my eyes that’s WRONG

    We are called to love one another not hate the sinners……….love the person not the sin or wrong but thru prayers and ur actions towards them it is possible to change their mindset or way of life which is leading them astray.



    My analysis is so simple:
    If the Church was united and blameless, we would not have ended up in this situation.

    How can the religion of the west be associated with Christianity, and we've now allowed ourselves to adopt children to gay couples?!
    Not only that, but its against the law for us to refuse gay couples a child to adopt, a bed to sleep in (if im a hotelier), any service reserved for a married couple HAS TO be given to a gay couple.

    What can God destroy when He sees this? Sodom and Gomorrah were not at the level of adopting childrn; and raising them!!!

    Sodom and Gomorroh did not have laws imposed on others making them adhere submit to every request of anyone living in sodomy (homosexuals, lesbians etc).

    It will be illegal , in the UK, to refuse anyone gay of any service you offer. What if that extends to the Church?? If there's a job of a priest on offer, and a gay man applies; and he is refused on the grounds that he is gay; then would we be prosecuted then?
  • [quote author=vassilios link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66998 date=1170427812]

    .....
    What can God destroy when He sees this? Sodom and Gomorrah were not at the level of adopting childrn; and raising them!!!

    This is the thing. there wouldn't be anything to destroy anymore. if you think about it, when Sodom and Gomorroh were destroyed am sure pther nations came back to God out of fear of what would might happend to them. it wouldn't be the right way to come to God, but it's a start.

    now the only thing that God will do is keep those who keep Him and try to get the lost ones from now till Judgment day.


    It will be illegal , in the UK, to refuse anyone gay of any service you offer. What if that extends to the Church?? If there's a job of a priest on offer, and a gay man applies; and he is refused on the grounds that he is gay; then would we be prosecuted then?

    maybe we will. but it wouldn't make much diffrence to us, especially copts. over the ages martyrs have been sheding their blood to keep our Orthodox faith. what they did is trully right. one proof or that is, our Orthodox church is still standing till this day.

    "The Shepherd is taking care of the sheep. some would be lost and brought back, and some would just be lost to deep in the mountain, that they would forget their Master's voice."
  • [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66994 date=1170424755]
    kerestina,
    now you're talking like the people here in the US. why not give them rights?!!!!!

    shud i be insulted?? lol jkz its cool
    i belive in social justice which consists of all indiviauls having a right to particpate in society and not denied access to certain services :P

    yes you are right we do need to do what u've listed above but, not make it more harder for them by acuilty giving them more freedom to stay in the way of sin.

    i think i c where ur cumin from so correct me if im wrong, u belive that if we give them freedom or their rights that we're encouraging them to sin and preventing or making it more harder for them to repent and alter their current sitauation

    well i agree with wat ur saying, BUT who r u to deny them their basic needs?? by depriving them of emplyment for example its punsihing them, who r we to judge and punish ppl,

    im not at all justifying wats going on in Europe in regards to this legislation, i totally disagree with young children being adopted by gay couples and homosexuals holding roles in the church. young children needs male and female role models in their life without one they may struggle

    but wat i am trying to encourage is that they are human beings, they are people minagir, they may behave like animals but they too are God's creation,

    you're supposed to treat people as they understand.

    wat do u mean?

    vas,
    let me give u a scenario and tell me wat u'd do ok?
    a normal couple marry right, the mother dies and so the father turns to men, from his marriage they had one child, he's unemployed and wants to support his child and himself, he cums to u with his child and partner seeking shelter at ur cheap hotel wat do u do?
  • [quote author=kerestina link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=15#msg67059 date=1170513490]
    [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=0#msg66994 date=1170424755]
    kerestina,
    now you're talking like the people here in the US. why not give them rights?!!!!!


    shud i be insulted?? lol jkz its cool
    i belive in social justice which consists of all indiviauls having a right to particpate in society and not denied access to certain services :P

    one quesion.
    you believe in the laws of our church or the government in the countries??!!!

    [quote
    yes you are right we do need to do what u've listed above but, not make it more harder for them by acuilty giving them more freedom to stay in the way of sin.

    i think i c where ur cumin from so correct me if im wrong, u belive that if we give them freedom or their rights that we're encouraging them to sin and preventing or making it more harder for them to repent and alter their current sitauation

    well i agree with wat ur saying, BUT who r u to deny them their basic needs?? by depriving them of emplyment for example its punsihing them, who r we to judge and punish ppl,

    basic needs, what basic needs.??? having sex with another person of the same sex is a need. marrying them to is a need. i didn't say we would punish them or judge them. but not give them the right to do the wrong.

    im not at all justifying wats going on in Europe in regards to this legislation, i totally disagree with young children being adopted by gay couples and homosexuals holding roles in the church. young children needs male and female role models in their life without one they may struggle

    but wat i am trying to encourage is that they are human beings, they are people minagir, they may behave like animals but they too are God's creation,
    you're supposed to treat people as they understand.
    wat do u mean?

  • [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=15#msg67061 date=1170515743]
    one quesion.
    you believe in the laws of our church or the government in the countries??!!!

    i belive in the laws of the church but we're also required to abide by the laws of this world

    basic needs, what basic needs.??? having sex with another person of the same sex is a need. marrying them to is a need. i didn't say we would punish them or judge them. but not give them the right to do the wrong.

    having sex with another person and marrying them is a WANT not a need. needs are things we need to survive like food, shelter etc (refer to Maslow's hierchary of needs)
    ok i totally dont think im being clear in my responses, im not supporting homosexuals AT ALL, im just saying we shud love the sinner and not their wrong doings, in addition to that give them the right to LIVE their lives and let God intervene in due time
    do u seriously think that if u take away their voice that they will yeild and convert? no they rebel and feel discriminated
    again i want to make one thing clear i do NOT support or agree with the homosexuals marrying, adopting children or holding roles in the church........
  • dear all

    im an avid supporter of my dear friend Kerestina

    and in this situation under this thread


    its no different!!!!

    im with ya all the way!!!

    Kristina123
  • [quote author=kerestina link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=15#msg67096 date=1170588942]
    [quote author=minagir link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=15#msg67061 date=1170515743]
    one quesion.
    you believe in the laws of our church or the government in the countries??!!!

    i belive in the laws of the church but we're also required to abide by the laws of this world
    not if they Counterdict with the church's.


    basic needs, what basic needs.??? having sex with another person of the same sex is a need. marrying them to is a need. i didn't say we would punish them or judge them. but not give them the right to do the wrong.

    having sex with another person and marrying them is a WANT not a need. needs are things we need to survive like food, shelter etc (refer to Maslow's hierchary of needs)
    ok i totally dont think im being clear in my responses, im not supporting homosexuals AT ALL, im just saying we shud love the sinner and not their wrong doings, in addition to that give them the right to LIVE their lives and let God intervene in due time
    do u seriously think that if u take away their voice that they will yeild and convert? no they rebel and feel discriminated
    again i want to make one thing clear i do NOT support or agree with the homosexuals marrying, adopting children or holding roles in the church........
    am not saying you are with homosexualty but you just don't see the diffrence. living in sin is death. also no one know when they'll die. if you let them Live and think that latter may be they'll change, you're wrong. and yes God will do intervene in bring them back to them, but He wouldn't just do that from nothin. He would use us to do that.
    please do not include God when talking about a sinner who God will return. yes of course God would but if He sees you not doing anything to help that sinner to return, that will be held on you on judgment day.

    i also never said take their freedom of speach. all i said is not to give them more laws or rights that will just make them go deeper into sin. and may be at some point actually die in spirit.

  • dearest minagir

    what kerestina is saying has been interpreted incorrectly by ur goodself

    you see my friend she is simply saying that we need to obey the laws of the country as Christ himslef commanded "render to ceaser what is Ceasers" etc. Nowhere in her post did i see her say give these people more rights etc.

    if you let them Live and think that latter may be they'll change, you're wrong

    wrong? hmmmmm?? i doubt it. You see i have this theory so long as you have faith in God there is always hope. dont u recall the story of St Moses the black and how he was a hardened criminal doomed from the get go. well i also hope u recall what happened to him ---> he repented and became a great saint!

    and yes God will do intervene in bring them back to them, but He wouldn't just do that from nothin. He would use us to do that.

    are you contradicting yourself in this statement? using us? in what way? how can he use people who have condemned the sinners and are constantly judging them? here again iam reminded of the story that involved the adultress woman who was to be stoned but Christ stated that he who was without sin is worthy to cast the first stone. see i think we need to be like Christ protecting the sinners and helping them to repent. I also believe that prayer is a powerful thing.

    please do not include God when talking about a sinner who God will return. yes of course God would but if He sees you not doing anything to help that sinner to return, that will be held on you on judgment day.

    do not include God when talking about sinners??? im sorry i fail to understand that. i do beleive i have read previously in the Bible that Christ came for the sinners!!! hmmm?? iam indeed perplexed!

    doing nothing - acquiescence - is a terrible thing but as kerestina so carefully espoused that love is the first step in aiding any sinner - u need to love them first and then attempt to aid them to repent - right?

    i also never said take their freedom of speach.

    my dear freedom of speech is a basic human right which no one can take away. although it happens the fact that its a human right can not be changed by any one!


    but i must say that we shud never concentrate on the sins of others when we ourselves are commiting greater sins each day.

    kerestina my friend i see and understand exactly what you are saying!

    Kristina123
  • :o wow excellent stuff kris123.. i tottally agree with u!.. fantastic :D
  • WHat's happening then in Australia? Can gays adopt there??


    No one yet has given their point of views concerning what they feel will happen to Christians in the West:

    if in the UK, saying that homosexuality is an abomination to God is now a hate crime, then what happens to Orthodox Christians where we truley believe that?

    How can we raise our children with Christian values when the country's laws interefere with our values.

    I think Kristina123 made an interesting point: That we are subject and should be obedient to the law of the country; but the law of the country is asking us to treat homosexuals as we streat normal/straight couples (in EVERY respect!); therefore, we cannot raise our kids telling them that homosexuality is wrong: that would be a hate crime.

    Furthermore, Christ subjected Himself to the law He created; the laws in England are not what God created; they are what man created.

    In anycase, im all for "obeying the law"; but now it seems teaching or preaching that homosexuality is a sin is now a criminal offence.
  • [quote author=Kristina123 link=board=11;threadid=4935;start=15#msg67141 date=1170755426]
    dearest minagir

    what kerestina is saying has been interpreted incorrectly by ur goodself

    you see my friend she is simply saying that we need to obey the laws of the country as Christ himslef commanded "render to ceaser what is Ceasers" etc. Nowhere in her post did i see her say give these people more rights etc.

    yes kristina123, i know that she might of been unclear about what she's tring to say but i am just answering to what's written.
    you're right. but was it against Christ's law, Christianty to pay the taxes for Ceaser. No, he even payed for Himself and for His descple Peter. same as the statement am tryoing to make. we only follow the countries rules if they don't counterdict which the churchs.

    this doesn't only apply for like homosexuals but for anything in general


    if you let them Live and think that latter may be they'll change, you're wrong

    wrong? hmmmmm?? i doubt it. You see i have this theory so long as you have faith in God there is always hope. dont u recall the story of St Moses the black and how he was a hardened criminal doomed from the get go. well i also hope u recall what happened to him ---> he repented and became a great saint!
    ok.....just to state a fast idea here cincerning faith. Faith onyl will not bring you to heaven. bit faith and religious works both will. now if you have faith that this homless man that is in front of me right now will have money and cloth one day, and you yourself have money and can give him and u don't. now that's a sin. a priest once said that if you get any chance in your lifetime to do somthing good and you don't do it, it will be held on you as a wrong thing you did.
    now as you said, lets recall the story of St. Moses tha black. he was as you said, the most hardened criminal doomed from the get go. and what happend next, he repented and became a great saint!
    hmmmm, you're right, but how did he repent. he held a girl named Mariam and she told him that she doesn't care about what he does to her becasue she have who can save her. now from there the idea fo Jesus stuck into St. Moses mind since he was allready thirsty for the true God. than he let her go, and than got 2 more christians, the monks who were fasting and who told him about how Jesus is the true God. here now the idea came to life to St. Moses where he than acted upon it and than went to monastary and found his way.

    tha point that i am trying to make is that somehow it always comes for us to help.
    i think this also answers your qoute here:

    and yes God will do intervene in bring them back to them, but He wouldn't just do that from nothin. He would use us to do that.

    are you contradicting yourself in this statement? using us? in what way? how can he use people who have condemned the sinners and are constantly judging them? here again iam reminded of the story that involved the adultress woman who was to be stoned but Christ stated that he who was without sin is worthy to cast the first stone. see i think we need to be like Christ protecting the sinners and helping them to repent. I also believe that prayer is a powerful thing.


    please do not include God when talking about a sinner who God will return. yes of course God would but if He sees you not doing anything to help that sinner to return, that will be held on you on judgment day.

    do not include God when talking about sinners??? im sorry i fail to understand that. i do beleive i have read previously in the Bible that Christ came for the sinners!!! hmmm?? iam indeed perplexed!
    forgive me for not stateing my idea right. but here it just go back to what i said above.

    doing nothing - acquiescence - is a terrible thing but as kerestina so carefully espoused that love is the first step in aiding any sinner - u need to love them first and then attempt to aid them to repent - right?

    totally rit.


    but i must say that we shud never concentrate on the sins of others when we ourselves are commiting greater sins each day.

    your're rit. and i agree.
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