Sex

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hi, can someone here help me?
I was trying to explain to some teenagers why sex before marriage is a sin. I tried my best. They're so young, and I want these kids to live a holy life as far as possible.

They're 99% catholic {Christian} so a verse from the Bible would really help [I mean, they'd respect it more]; but where abouts in the Bible does it say its wrong exactly? The problem is is that culture seems to take precedence over the Lord's commandments. If something is culturally acceptable it means it can't be a sin. [Which is obviously not the case]. And what's worse is that the government is no longer a moral institute. Its a politically correct establishment with no personality that doesnt want to offend anyone so long as it gets re-elected.

What I read to them was John 15 or 17: About the True Vine. Where if you obey His commandments, your joy will be complete; and that i wanted them first to experience the joy of abiding in Him, so that they'll know that keeping His commandments has some rewards.

I did a search on "sex" in the bible, but found nothing.

These are school kids, and their teacher really really cares about them enormously. I've never seen such love and care a teacher has for her pupils.

Thanks for any pointers.

God bless u all.
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Comments

  • Ephesians 5:3
    "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints" (NKJV)

    "Que l'impudicité, qu'aucune espèce d'impureté, et que la cupidité, ne soient pas même nommées parmi vous, ainsi qu'il convient à des saints." (Louis Segond)

    This is only one of many such verses which condemns fornication (sex outside of marriage) and other forms of sexual immorality.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=0#msg55201 date=1148254224]
    Hi. thanks.. l'm so concerned to use this term: are there any more passages?


    1 Corinthians 7:8-9
    But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. (NKJV)

    "A ceux qui ne sont pas mariés et aux veuves, je dis qu'il leur est bon de rester comme moi. Mais s'ils manquent de continence, qu'ils se marient; car il vaut mieux se marier que de brûler." (Louis Segond)

    Here we clearly see St Paul saying that those who cannot control their sexual urges must get married to ensure that they don't commit fornication (sex outside of marriage), lest they burn. Why would he speak like this if sex outside of marriage was ok?


    What about our Church fathers: what did they have to say on this?

    I can't think of any quotes off the top of my head - but the Church Fathers are unanimous in their view on sex outside of marriage - it is a sin, and a serious one at that.
  • The following are just a few verses.

    Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. (Cor 6:18)

    1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
    It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (Cor 7:1-5)

    This passage is great because it delineates that sex is to be only between a husband and his wife.

    For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[a] us His Holy Spirit. (1 Thes 4:3-8)

    19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

  • Also back it up with the risk of disease and sickness and even death with the bible scripture.For the world is full of sexualy transmitted diseases you cant get rid of and can kill you such as aids..the best way for them to prevent this is abstinance until marriage.god bless pray for me and i have them in my prayers.
  • The question I would ask such students, is precisely whose body do they hope to have sexual relations with. If the person replies that every body belongs to the individual, then you should ask him if that individual is a self-sustaining, uncreated, independent, and infinite being. For as long as man is a finite, dependent, created, and an externally sustained being, then they can not be in complete charge over their bodies. If they are truly Christian as they say, then by definition, their bodies must be dependent on greater transcendent force (i.e., Jesus Christ).

    Being that temporal bodies retrospectively depend on past causes for their existence.....and past causes can be delineated back to a first cause (God), it then follows that temporal bodies are culminatley dependent upon God. Our Lord Himself, called His body the temple of God connoting the necessary sanctity attributed to the physical body of man and reaffirmed this concept through his revelation to Saint Paul (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor 3:16).
    Now if you are willing to enter into temple of God, without His permission and against his bridegroom’s instruction (the church of Christ)--and you believe you have committed no wrong--then your conception of Christianity is logically incoherent.

    Furthermore, the sexual experience is not merely taking possession of God's temple for a momentary lapse of time; it is literally mangling everything that God has set in order within His sanctuary. Christ described adultery as not merely faceted in an arrogated sexual experience, but in the very microscopic desires of the mind, even before that literal act. I find it extremely difficult to believe that during intercourse the lust of the flesh can be so easily suppressed, that there is not even one incline of sexual desire during the process. According to scripture the very thought itself towards an un-espoused individual is univocal to the act of adultery; at least in terms of sin. (Matt 5:28).

    Since sex is a personal encounter with the body of another individual; the very temple of God; the only means by which it can be justified is if God first gives permission for one to enter that temple. Marriage is, thus, the sole warrant for an individual to have sexual intercourse with his/her partner. This is firmly the theological philosophy behind the Christian sacrament of marriage. There is no other way around it.

    God bless you
  • It's very simple actually. If they believe in Christianity, then they must believe in the Holy Scriptures. If they believe in the Scriptures, then they should realize it's claim that their bodies are temples of God. If they don't ask God permission to use another person's body (which belongs to Him), then they are really stealing something form God. I believe that in their hearts they can and genuinley do concede that stealing is wrong.

    (By the same token, a Christian is one who always seeks truth. If your friends are not seeking truth, they will never listen to you no matter how brilliant your argument may be. So use your digression.)

    Finally, I would like to conclude with this point. Your friends surely believe that some things are absolutely wrong and absolutely right (If they say they don't, ask them if it is wrong for someone to force them away from all sexual experience) However if they believe in good, then they must espouse there to be actual evil. Now if they believe in evil and good, then there is necessarily a moral law that is evoked (without one good and evil are relative). Yet, if there is a moral law, then there is a moral law Giver.

    Logically, without God there can not be absolute good or real evil. Your friends must choose between their own sexual proclivities or the will of God. However, without God they have no right to complain about those who oppose sexual promiscuity.

    God bless.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=0#msg55220 date=1148279162]
    well, that was quite interesting; but l gained more than a teenager would. l explained that they are only teenagers: 16 year old girls in fact. This has to be directed to their age and mentalíty.

    I'm sure the youth in the states think the same. Here, they see it as making love - so it can't be wrong. you see?

    I talked about fornication as being a sin to several friends who were mature in age; and they didn't see it as wrong either.

    What worries me also is that we're mixing between right and wrong, and leading others in the same direction.

    These verses were available before to them, but still they don't see that this is wrong.

    I think its imperative to use language and words that are relevant for a certain age or mentalíty.


    If they do not accept the Bible or the teaching of the Church, there's not much point in arguing with them (unless you want to talk about medical concerns of premarital sex - you could look at Uganda, which is one of the few countries which has made progress in reducing AIDS because they focused on teaching abstinance rather than handing out condoms).

    If they do believe in the Bible, then they should accept what it says - plenty of quotes have been given.
  • I think if catholics do not have the Holy Spirit telling them sexual lust is wrong won't do them much good maybe because they won't get help from God in their struggles (?) maybe.

    Is thinking about sex a sin if you are not having any fantasy?
    If I walk behind a woman and the woman picks up her pace I think she thinks I am going to rape her..
    I should not walk behind a woman anyway sometimes maybe..
    Is it wrong to wonder or something if you would find sex enjoyable with a pretty person without imagining things or something about the person in your head.. but just to think if you have a sexual desire to a person or not maybe.. what do you think?
  • [quote author=JesusisKingofKings link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=0#msg55274 date=1148380917]
    I think if catholics do not have the Holy Spirit telling them sexual lust is wrong won't do them much good maybe because they won't get help from God in their struggles (?) maybe.


    I think the problem is simply that the west has made premarital sex normal, and virginity abnormal.

    This way of thinking is so entrenched in people's minds that they will ignore any Bible passages or teachings of the Church that speak against it.

    I don't think its because Catholics don't have the Holy Spirit. I mean, Islamic culture is very strict on matters of sexual purity, and people who come from such a background hold this view very strongly - surely a baptised Catholic has the Holy Spirit to a greater extent than an unbaptised Muslim?


    Is thinking about sex a sin if you are not having any fantasy?

    Its not always possible to control the thoughts that come into your mind. However, it is possible to control what you do when they do enter your mind. It is also possible to control the things which causes such impulses.

    So it is not a sin if a thought pops into your head but you do your best to redirect your attention to something else and push the thought away.

    Nor is it a sin to think of sex in a non-lustful way - e.g. a biologist explaining the reproductive system to students.

    But it is a sin if you dwell on thoughts (fantasise as you say) or talk about/look at things which will cause such thoughts.


    If I walk behind a woman and the woman picks up her pace I think she thinks I am going to rape her..
    I should not walk behind a woman anyway sometimes maybe..

    Well, you certainly shouldn't do anything which would instill fear in others. I don't believe thinkin "She's speeding up because she's scared I will rape her" is any worse than thinking "She's speeding up because she's scared I will steal her purse" - I can't see it being sinful.


    Is it wrong to wonder or something if you would find sex enjoyable with a pretty person without imagining things or something about the person in your head.. but just to think if you have a sexual desire to a person or not maybe.. what do you think?

    Yes, such thoughts are quite natural - but only because we are fallen - one should not dwell on such thoughts because they are from the devil.
  • God himself changed the commandment of "You should not commit adulty"

    God said "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    God didnot only band sex before marriage but he banded even having thoughts about it and all the lusted images
  • [quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=0#msg55293 date=1148401444]
    But if two people aren't married, and they have a sexual relationship, they wouldnt see it as adultary?


    It would not be adultary in the strict sense, since that involves a married person having sexual relations with someone other than their spouse.

    However, as was already pointed out, Christ extends this commandment to include even lustful thoughts for a woman (not just married women). Therefore, it follows that it is also extended to include sexual relations between two unmarried persons.
  • Ok, i think the reason the answers you got were more theological and not really appealing to teenagers raised in the culture you are dealing with has a lot to do with the history of our church.

    The Coptic church as it is now has grown through a very conservative Islamic culture with church members also being closely involved in church and church life. So basically there has never been a need to explain to teenagers why they should not have sex or be dating (because none of them were having sex or dating). So the church was more interested in explaining the theology and depth behind marriage and so on.

    So now the problem is we are in foreign countries where we are supposed to teach teenagers why fornication is sin and we don’t know how because our church hasn’t taught us. I think slowly the church is adapting to the cultures and changing its approach, but it is still a slow process and for every 1 thing that changes in our church there is an angry mob ready to condemn the church of losing its 'heritage' or something.

    Anyway i think for all the people serving in Coptic churches we should pray for our church and be practically involved in church service, influencing the church to effectively reach the youth. Also there is no problem with reaching into protestant literature and sources, since they have been dealing with the problems of western culture ever since the culture existed. Good books for teens or youth in western culture regarding this issue: Sex is not the problem, lust is- Joshua Harris. I kissed dating goodbye- Joshua Harris.

    I think concerning these issues it is very important that while stressing the sinfulness of lust and fornication we must stress more the need of Christ in the teenager's lives. Even if they are convinced about it being sin, but they do not have a personal relationship with God and their church, then they have built their beliefs on a foundation of sand and it is only a matter of time before the waves knock them over.

    By the way the prodigal son thing is a great example

    God bless
  • [quote author=Orthodox11 link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=15#msg55296 date=1148407606]
    [quote author=vassilios link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=0#msg55293 date=1148401444]
    But if two people aren't married, and they have a sexual relationship, they wouldnt see it as adultary?


    It would not be adultary in the strict sense, since that involves a married person having sexual relations with someone other than their spouse.

    However, as was already pointed out, Christ extends this commandment to include even lustful thoughts for a woman (not just married women). Therefore, it follows that it is also extended to include sexual relations between two unmarried persons.


    Not neccassarily. Every single Christian that was baptised is married; to Christ. Saying that you are somebody else's without the Church's permission (i.e. marriage) means that you have committed adultry, against God nonetheless. On the day a baby is baptized, a red tape is tied around him/her and they are given the title a "arees" or an "aroosa"; a "bride" or a "bridegroom". Why do you think this is? Every one of us that was baptized is married to Christ. What happens during the actual sacrament of marriage then? Another person joins this relationship, and that person is supposed to help the other to find God and vice versa. Anything else would be wrong, as the commandment "Do not commit adultry definitely qualifies".
  • Vasilios I think part of the problem here is that the Bible does not delineate exactly what to do in each and every situation. This is why God gave us His Holy Spirit, to guide us when things do not seem clear cut. However, we often ignore Him because His way is not convenient. The Bible tells us that any sexual behavior outside of marriage and even some within marriage is wrong. There are many verses condemning sexual immorality. However, we often choose to rationalize and convince ourselves that some acts are OK because they are not "sex" or everybody does it so it must be OK. This is our weak attempt to convince ourselves that we are still good Christians despite not obeying God's commands.

    Here is another example. The Bible says "Thou shalt not steal." It does not however say, "Thou shalt not use Kazaa or Limewire to download music," for example. This is a form of stealing but we rationalize it away.
  • what, so u just posted this for the hits? tut tut
  • May the Lord reward you all accordingly.
    I believe knowing the scripture and its position is the first step and most important.
    But what can be done to further help the physical body and mind?
    For example I have always disputed with friendson the issue of dress code and how it might relate tothe verse that enjoins us to be our brothers keepers.
    I feel dressing to expose ones sensitive areas lead some to commit lust and thus sin.
    Now a brother or sister who by way of this kind of act leads a fellow brother or sister to commit this sin is not being or observing this injuction of being a brothers keeper.
    I have learned alot from this discussion ... for I am blessed with three wonderful girls.
  • gb :D
  • Ok...i have a question. WHat about sex in a relationship. A serous one not just gf/bf stuff like in high school. But were two people are really commited to each other almost engaged.

    Also...would this include all types of sex like oral sex or just intercourse. I think it would be wrong for intercorse before marrige but i do not see oral sex or other minor sex acts wrong.

  • Also...would this include all types of sex like oral sex or just intercourse. I think it would be wrong for intercorse before marrige but i do not see oral sex or other minor sex acts wrong.

    Regarding the first part of your question, my personal opinion is that any sexual relations outside of marriage are wrong. However the church may have a different more official view.

    Regarding what you have deemed "minor sex acts" I feel they are very much wrong as well, for they are actions done out of lust for flesh. Our Lord himself tells in Matthew 5:27-28

    You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not commit adultery.’28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    If the mere act of looking upon a person with lust in your heart constitutes adultery, how much moreso does satisfying those lusts constitute adultery?
  • Heavenly note, I think sex is sex, you cant have minor and major kinds of it. thats my view
  • [quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=1;threadid=3921;start=15#msg55857 date=1149376411]
    Ok...i have a question. WHat about sex in a relationship. A serous one not just gf/bf stuff like in high school. But were two people are really commited to each other almost engaged.

    Also...would this include all types of sex like oral sex or just intercourse. I think it would be wrong for intercorse before marrige but i do not see oral sex or other minor sex acts wrong.


    French kissing could be seen as a "mior sex act," oral sex is very much major, and is most certainly a sin.
  • I think some people are forgetting this verse in the bible,

    It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
    - 1 Corinthians 7:1

    This is the most blunt verse in the bible about sexual actions. It covers everything that our society deems as "minor", for these actions are not minor and are seen by God for the sin which they represent, adultery.
  • It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
    - 1 Corinthians 7:1

    It is good, but is it bad. Did you think that maybe this was intended for higher preist hood or for monks.
  • I let a girl or woman from uni touch me (maybe for 1 second or less than 1 second) or slap me or whatever on the arm or shoulder or whatever .. we had to work together (I did not tell her to touch me but maybe I seemed like I wanted to be touched because I was in distress.. to know someone cares.. another male person touched me before her and because I was talking friendly with her .. she thought she could be friendly also) and maybe because I did not want her to think I think im too holy to be touched or I wanted not to think she is like other jews (yes she is a jew) that might exist that do not touch gentiles..

    (I did not rebuke her for touching by words or by facial expression or another way or something)
    Maybe I did something wrong... I think I really might of..
  • well..what u r describing to me..is just a friendly touvh on the shoulder and nothing more...


    in that matter....

    OUR CHURCH IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE BUT IT SEES GREY...lets all remind ourselves that..

    wilst she DID touch you..a pat...a handshake...IS NOT SEEN AS SINFUL (unless she touched u in another area :-[)

    i think i am sometimes in the sme circumstances...where guys put their arms around me...

    JUST AS FRIENDS...for to them...its FINE...whilst i mostly let it go...sometimes..i say..please..get ur hands off me and nothing more..

    ps: the whole she is a jew and the whole gentile thing IS RUBBISH!!
  • My dear Brother I am no father but a young man who has had this trouble with this same topic in the same sense. My friends do and desire totally opposite to what I belive in.
    See if these helps


    Ok here is the things that U have to look into MORE detail

    Firstly get ur self a copy of the orthodox e reference library.
    If u already have this there is a whole huge section on this telling the different issues and all the verses that are mentioned above u will get many good point from here.
    And many true examples.

    Then u have to ask this question
    What do these teens believe in
    .
    Do they believe in God , his kingdom ,eternal life. Etc
    Then if one believes in these things then what happens?
    U have to believe in the scriptures and live ur life to that taking the holy sacrament and teachings of the church yet its not that simple
    Ones u start to do this and here is the big KEY to being a Christian it is not easy
    The biggest challenge that will come will be from
    1.   Themselves that is the body desires to all and everything that is PLEASURABLE…. NOT EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD THAT IS PLEASURABLE IS OF GOD and his will but rather is sin
    there are many things one of and the biggest is this sexual immorality sleeping with girlfriends and boyfriends. It is pleasurable. and it is not of God.

    Prayer and the sacraments of the church and example lives of saints e.g. saint demtrius and many other female saints are good examples in ur case to use.
    Using these the girls will have to sanctify their desire of this sin (prayer that will give grace from God to do this )and control themselves

    2.   these are the rules set by the world.
    Who sets these rules but the ruler of this world the devil? these are enmity to God. Is it not a lie amongst our young people to believe that HAVING SEX TOGETHER being girlfriends and boyfriends is making love?
    If u read the sect from the e reference library there are three kinds of love the love these kids talk is not of God nor sanctified by God but is lust. A mere fulfilling of the pleasure. Deceived by the devil and thus in fulfilling these they separate themselves fromGod and inheriting his kingdom. I had a hard time getting around this and still am but I believe that these rules of our society on this matter is wrong.\

    3.   the devil and his angel and the biggest on demon of LUST

    of course he will tell these young people to believe it is alright to go ahead and have girlfriend and boyfriend it is alright I still believe in Christ. But no this is a lie. U must learn so HAVING SEX IS SLAP on God face saying o k look here I believe in u all but I really like to have a girlfriend because its so nice and desirable and everybody is doing it and its just so pleasurable…this is the voice of the carnal self with inspiration from the spirit of lust. We have fight this and seek God to PURIFY this SOTHAT we can be confirmed in the likeness of GOD again as he willed.

    Have u read the book by pope shenouda on DIABOLIC WARS
    ON PURITY
    Get hold of these. They are even on the net
    So these are the things which we are all at war with when u decide to be a Christian if u believe in these then u do not stand and work with God and are in SIN.U HAVE to fight HARD to win to go through the narrow gate THERE ARE ONLY A FEW WHO WILL PASS THROUGH.
    Have to change the idea of the spirit and soul serving the body to the other way around.
    Have a read of this.
    http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8139.asp
    it is the second story of the youth girl

    and there is much more God willing I will write these in later
  • i hope im not too late but this is from a video aimed at youth its called the myth of safe sex it was an awesome video


    Life of purity is possible with Christ
    Pornography and sex is
       addictive
       progressive- instead of watching it 1 minute or practicing it once you’ll do it more
       Deadly- it’s a good hit the first time like drugs. Physical addiction and psychological and instead of turning to God you will turn to this habit.
    There are 35-38 sexually transmitted diseases such as HPV, Herpes, AIDS- which kills, Chlamydia etc.
    Why is there more people practising sex? Media
    Why in the old days there weren’t these things but now there is? These days people don’t care about God, love and lust get mixed up, media is affective, school encourages, peer pressure and people try it out to see which partner is the best.
    You are free to do whatever you want but in the end both are loosing but mostly women as they have the virginity seal, they get pregnant, diseases.
    This culture is very destructive. They don’t say how many people die from it rather they say go try it out.
    The media says use condoms and everything will be ok but safe sex is a myth- condoms don’t work, then they say just in case condoms don’t work there is always abortion.
    Sexual activity doesn’t hold, the more you spend together eg. Dating or going out the more familiarity with them then you will end up having intercourse,
    If you make up your mind and do what God wants you to do you will slow down with things such as holding hands, hugging etc.
    When you fall pregnant and you have a disease the baby will be affected by the disease you have.
    Guys give intimacy for sex but girls give sex for intimacy- just to look acceptable in society.
    Why would you loose God for some one to say I love you and once you have intercourse ‘one night stand’ they throw you away and say they don’t know you. At that time the girl looses physically and emotionally,
    If you know a partner has aids will you have intercourse with them? Of coarse not!! So don’t take the risk as people don’t know if they have a disease or not,
    Purity is a factor to go to heaven. In our religion its wrong to have sex before marriage. If you are having sex you are sinning to your body by wrecking the Holy temple of the Holy Spirit. For example you can’t out of the blue go murder some one it goes slowly by hatred etc. that’s like sexually activity. It starts off by small steps like holding hands, then hugging then kissing then there comes all the rest.
    Sexually immorality- spending around 200 hours with a guy (mixing with guys in groups) if you work with him you fall for him.
    If you are a true devout Christian why would you do that and its not the time or age for marriage.
    Once you loose your second virginity which is the virginity in you head the physical virginity will come easily after that.
    1 exposure of porn will keep going and increasing that’s the same as choosing to have sex if you do it once you will keep going- there is no safe way.
    Rape is very common (forced sex)- 20% girls loose their virginity by drunkenness etc. its not planned, only by guys. Dating is a source that is asking for rape.
    Society thinks or implies to you if you don’t have sex then you are retarded, homosexual etc.
    VIRGINITY IS PRICELESS, DON’T THROW IT AWAY!!

    hope i helped
    +FROG+
  • One of the ten commandments (they must be familiar of them) is-"Do not commit adultery" (Exodus)

    Adultery means to have sex before marraige
  • Adultery is having sex with someone who is not your spouse or with someone else's spouse..

    But since the sin of adultery seems so bad or something unfaithfulness to God (by any sin maybe.. e.g sex before marriage) is considered Adultery maybe..
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