Where is GOD??

edited December 1969 in Personal Issues
Dear All,

I had a discussion with an atheist friend about God existance. He is a researcher. So the discussion was very scientific; he comes up with a logical idea and I try to defend back with a more robust logic ( at least to me :) ) Just before we ended our talk, he said: "Miena! Proof to me that God exists and I will bow to Him in front of you right now" I answered: " I can't!!!" That was it! I stayed in bad mood for couple of days after this discussion. My faith was shakened a little bit! Believe me! sometimes these discussions are very painful! However, I didn't cease from getting more envolved in such discussions to the extend that I can act like an astheist and you will hardly figure out that I am not one of them. Anyways, that was not my point.

My question to you is:

Can we prove that God exists by logical arguments?

I pretty much have a satisfactory answer, but I'd like to explore different opinions.


"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)


  • what is ur satisfactory answer!! ???

    wow miena this is serious....i thankfully have not come accross anything like this as i go to a coptic orthodox skool and nothing like this has even come acrooss me

    but make sure u pray about it and about this athiest ;) n gbwu in this matter

    marina :P
  • I have 3 atheist friends. Only one of them is really concerned about God's existance. I beleive that he really wants to know.. I do pray for him almost everyday, but...
    I would prefer not to share you with my answer to the question now. i d like to hear from others first... May be I will change my opinion ::)
  • thats good :D

    and yer sure.....maybe later :)

  • To those who are science majors in school or in college:

    People....is it possible a series of mere coincedences bring up this beautiful world we live in? I mean...it's impossible!!! It's immposible to have such minute forms of life, very very resilent to almost any conditions...and at the same time have a LOT of varied life, each with its own details and and each with life systems working like clockwork....

    Why look outside...let's look at ourselves...if we disregard psychology....how is it that or bodies, whose very complex systems we have not come to fully understand yet (and even if...doesn't matter), come by chance?! I mean...chance is chance...a mere "chance", not a whole series of chances that brought us up!

    Let's put psychology into view now...now...it is IMPOSSIBLE, even if all the above were possible, that ANY part of human psychology is a result of chance...think about it....the question of conscience, the human consience...where did that come from...didn't God create humans in HIS form, and in HIS picture? What was meant by that phrase...? It means that we alone have the mind to think logically...that leap from non-logical mind to logical mind (assuming that all the above points, non-psychology, are invalid) is absolutely immposible....

    One last thing...very important...and was put up in the first response: There are some things we just aren't able to get through to our heads....our minds...even if after all the advances in recent years, is still, and will always be limited...period. So, there are some things I won't be able to comprehend...but I know who my FATHER is :) See what I mean....I might just say to him "I don't understand father....but I believe..."

    But what do you say to an aetheist? Two things....(1) If, for example, you have this great feast....you'll thank the chef you prepared it....u think the food came in by chance?? Take it to a bigger scale....The world is much more wonderful than food...u think it came by chance? (2) St. Augustine, after his return, was zealous to try to understand everything....so God made him understand in a cute way...St. Augustine was walking on the beach one day, and he saw this kid digging a small hole next to the waterfront...and starting filling it with seawater..The kid said "I'm filling up this hole with the ocean..." So Saint Augustine said "How, u crazy??!" so the kid said "How then do u expect to understand everything in this world?" and disappeared....

    I think the meaning is obvious...

    In HIS Name,

  • Not just that miracle, which is beautifully amazing by the way, but ALL the miracles! I mean the miracle with St. Philopater that was so soon in Egypt, and of course our holy Mother Mary, and all the other miracles. Take a synexarium to him and show him about all the saints. Pick out certain touchy verses in the Bible. This is proof God exists.

    There is logical proof that Christ lived on this earth as Christ. What happened to the Holy Scripture? What more proof can someone want? Yet there is more. Tell me, why would more than thousands and thousands of people die under the reign of Diocletian and Nero for a religion thats not even true? Not logical is it? I wouldn't die for something that wasn't true, and I'm sure they wouldn't have either. Yet they did, why?

    If God didn't exist, how did we come to life? I expect the response evolution, but that makes no sense to me, because humans can not just jump from being monkeys to what they are now. There MUST have been a Creator to all things. I'm going to humor the scientific theory of the Big Bang. WHERE DID ALL THIS COME FROM?? It has to have come from somewhere. Somebody has to have created it, because I know for sure things do not pop out of thin air.

    Also, and this is the more present example, the FULFILLING of the Holy Scripture. Look at everything happening around you. All these things, all these disasters, don't they mean something? Everything does.

    Sorry if I may seem a bit too harsh, but I mean there are so many examples of proof, we could never list them...

  • MarMar91..

    As a believer, I do like your argument! However, this doesn't work with an atheist for a simple reason: he/she doesn't beleive that there is either God or Satan. For him/her death is a new adventure. He/she will go through it when the time comes.

    Your argument can work with someone that was brought up on the idea that there is God, and this God is envolved in everything in his/her life. But, if this is not the case, all what you said won't work. The simplest answer that you will get: "you have a very nice philosophy but you can't prove that it is a fact!" Actually what you will hear is the following:" The idea of God's existance is a smart way to escape from answering questions that science couldn't answer it till now, and that why our ancestors started this legend that one day God created the universe and then He creature Adam and Eve........ but one day science will find an answer ." Or may be another athiest will say:" People always needed something to beleive in that is more powerful than them; some power that they can rely on..."
    Then he/she will end up saying, "So you have your own philosophy about God and I have my own. But where is the truth? You can't prove that yours represent the full truth!!"

    I tried that argument that you used before, but unfortunately it doesn't work. the direct reply to your statement is: "People in the past didn't beleive that we can fly, and now we can land on the moon. So as a scientist you answer to the question : is it possible a series of mere coincedences bring up this beautiful world we live in? is irrelevant unless you support it by theory.


    I already tried what you suggested. Do you know what was the answer?? Again, miracles are just some phenomena that science is not advanced enough to explain but oneday the mistery will be revealed , and it won't be a miracle anymore..

    Guys!!! All you arguments are based upon your believes, but if you think as an athiest it won't make any sense. Imagine that you were born without knowing anything about Christ; you are very will educated; science answers most of the misteries in your life, and someone comes to you and started talking about God. Not only that and then he tell you that God incarnated ... What do expect your answer will be?

    One more thing to add, none of you answered my question : Can we prove that God exists by logical arguments?

    Again I am not an atheist so don't hate me for my replies! It is not what I beleive in, it is the fruit of my discussions about atheism.

    May God Bless You ALL!!

    miena :)

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

  • If u want a very logical answer to prove God search Descartes he is one of the most important philosophers of modern philosophy. To propve to you that he is a very reliable source, he is the origine of our education of today. He has proved God in a logical way, i cant tell u how cuz id have to translate it from french, because i study in french but u can easily fnd it. And there is a book my math teacher told me abotu that math proves God, i dotn know ? But it has to with with God being eternal and numbers being infinit but that is somethign i realy dunno about.
  • In my science classes all my teachers are atheists. what scientific evedince is there.
  • Very true MarMar91...

    I don't get how what I wrote is meaningless to an aetheist (not that I know them of course, but because, I guess, it simple?)

    I mean...theory is based on EVIDENCE my dear friends, right? I mean...u can't just form a theory out of nothing!

    Ok...there's a BIG difference between us not being able to fly then and then going to the moon now, and between us not understanding creation "then", and seemingly underatand it now....

    Ask that aetheist...does going to the moon mean that our minds have become infinitely wise and infinitely knowable? Are we super- minds now that we've gone to the moon our decoded our genes or manipulate atoms? Or is that because God who GAVE us these minds enabled us to discover these discoveries and advnace humanity? Ask him....is it because we are STARTING to have some knowledge about our world, that we state that now we know everything, and thus are fully wise, or something like that?

    I don't get the second part of ur statement Miena...

    "is irrelevant unless you support it by theory."

    WHAT theory do aethesists have about creation?? I'm not talking about the Big Bang or so forth....they are just theories of what happened AFTER the creation itself...these theories talk about HOW God actually created the universe...how is fine....let it be what may be....I'm talking about the ACTUAL creation....how did that come about....? Do they have any theories??

    Tell him the two examples I gave in the last post....and may GOD bless him/her to realize the truth and be freed by it in God's Church...

    Oh...and tell him MArMar91's beautiful argument...but I wonder...will he/she grasp it?! God only knows.... :D

    N.B.: Science cannot and will not answer all questions...simply because God is infinite....every answer will simply generate 10,000 questions in front of it...that doesn't mean we don't answer them...but that DOES mean we don't leave God from the equation....!

    In his Name,

  • There are Pope Shenouda's arguments on this...very interesting...I think u'll find the relevant book on copticchurch.net...

    In HIS Name,

  • Hi RF.. Hi MarMar91...
    First of all, I am sorry for my late reply... I had a very busy and crazy week at work, but thankfully it went fine.
    Your arguments are very rich! I like it! Really I do.... However, I am totally convinced that scientific and logical arguments are not enough to prove that God exists; as you said science can't answer everything... In other words, if we can prove that God exists through research, then that God is limited. God is beyond science; faith is beyond knowledge.... MarMar91, I'll return back to the definition of faith, as you mentioned before, " Now faith is the substance for things hoped for, the evidance of things that are not seen" (Hebrew 11:1) And if you continue reading the next 2 verses :
    "2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
    3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."
    When you contemplate in these verses, you will find the answer. What do you think St. Paul meant by word visible? Did he mean thing visible by naked eyes? Nooo . It is more deep than that, it is things which are visible to the human knowledge ( science, earthly philosophy ,....)

    We can't prove that God exists by science. BUT this is NOT weakness in God, it is the limitation of science.

    One more thing that I d like to share with you; in my last discussion with one of my friends ( am atheist), the word love came in the discussion. Do you know what was his comment about it? "I don't know what love is." He just said," I don't know ... I d like to what love is"..
    Again this the difference between the sons and daughters of God, and those of the world. God gave us the gift to sense unvisible things that noone else can realise. One more time, unvisible to our knowledge!

    I know that God will find my friend because he is really looking for the truth! He is not just arguing for the sake of argument, he wants to know the truth! The last time I told him : " God will find you, it is not you that will find Him. And if He didn't, then He doesn't deserve that you should worship Him. Just Keep looking!" A long time ago, another american friend and I gave him a bible. I know that he didn't read it yet. I hope that God will open his eyes when he starts reading... I don't know how God will work with him but He will!! I d like to ask you to pray for him too, just call him "Miena's friend" and God will get it :)

    May God bless you all!
  • One more thing that I d like to share with you; in my last discussion with one of my friends ( am atheist), the word love came in the discussion. Do you know what was his comment about it? "I don't know what love is." He just said," I don't know ... I d like to what love is"..

    this makes all the sense in the world, because God IS love, if you haven't tasted God, you've never tasted love... explain this to your friend, if he really is looking for truth, he will accept it...

    May the Grace of God bless both your friends...
  • Hi Miena,

    I really admire that you ask this question on behalf of your atheist friend. I think, from my own experience, that you have come to the right conclusion. God cannot be explained logically. If he could be explained logically, then of course, he would not be God. What the boy on the beach told St.Augustine highlights this point very well.

    But I'd like to give you a personal perspective about this, that I think you were looking for when you asked this question. You wanted someone to be able to imagine what it would be like to have an atheistic type mindframe, where knowing God was not given so easily as to those who knew God since they were very little. I believe that I am such a person. I think I can understand the mind of an atheist, because I lived my life as if God wasn't present for a long time.

    Every atheist believes in something. There is no one who, even though he/she doubts, doesn't believe that life is miraculous somehow, and that there must be some kind of purpose to existence. I believe atheists feel this way, even more so than other people. For instance, I believe that the reason atheists question the existence of God, and bring up points like " miracles have'nt yet been understood in the sciences, but one day they will be, and they will not be a miracle any longer"---is because they want to be "right". They want to catch on to the correct idea that governs this universe. Or else why would they be so fervent about questioning God. God, to the believers offers the right answer to the questions science can't answer. The atheist wants so badly to be right that he becomes suspicious of answers that claim to be right, and immediately doubt them.

    I think the best way to clear up this suspicion, is to simply ask an atheist, what the goals of science are. IF it is to understand the miracles behind the universe and to eventually understand the meaning of life, then would that really solve any of the internal problems we all face as human beings. I would challenge the atheist to try and see that life is more than logic, that reason is only half of the story. If science figured out tommorow how resurrection was possible, and we were able to make a machine that brought people back to life, would it really mean anything unless there was a message behind bringing people to life? It is not the miracles or the acts of God that are important, it is the fact that God does them for us, that we are able to understand them and give meaning to them. Before God created man, the trees and the waters were blessed by God, but it wasn't until God created man, that His Love was fulfilled. It would be no use to have waters, and and trees, and fruit of every kind, had there been no one to appreciate it, and that is why we are here. To appreciate what God has given us. We cannot escape knowing the beauty and pleasure of things, we cannot escape having a consciousness that is woven into the consciousness of every other human on the planet. We cannot deny this, and therefore, we can't deny our uniqueness on this planet.

    With the atheist it is not so much a question of whether God exists, the question is more of which god are you denying existence?

    A very strong way doubt was removed for me, by an extremly kind and patient Christian, was after listening to me talk about myself for a while, she asked me what it is I wanted out of life? I, said I want to have wisdom, but 1st I wanted to have some fun. She then asked me, with unparalleled generosity, what if you would just follow God now, and forget about having fun?

    What I understood this question to be, is how serious are you about knowing the truth? I want wisdom in life, much like your atheist friend is seeking wisdom, I want to know how to fill that void in my life, as I'm sure your atheist friend would like to resolve his suspicions, but the real question is not to who, it is, how badly do you want it.

    If I choose to worship a God of wisdom, meaning a God that helps me to understand science, that helps me to understand what the meaning of life is, don't you think that God will be the same God, that wants me to find the greatest gift ever given to this world. The gift of Love.

    All you have to be sure of is that Jesus Christ is the Truth, which I know you are. Don't worry about your friend knowing Jesus just yet, ask him, how badly he wants to know THE TRUTH.

    Once you get him started on genuinely seeking the truth, and wanting to know what is the real "right" in this world. I am positive Jesus will make himself known to him, especially since He has already brought someone like you to show him the way.

    God Bless You, and please pray for my atheists friends as well, I only wish I could be as loving to my friends as you. :)
  • Dear miena,

    There was a topic about this subject on Coptichymns.net, a year ago.

    You will find my answer on it. The document which is in attachment on this link is very interesting.

    And there are already some very good arguments from the other members here.

    You can maybe ask him this question:
    If God doesn't exist, why is there atheism?

    Hope it helps.
    May God bless you.
  • Dear ionus,

    I think you got my point to the depth! I can tell that you had the same experience before. I just wanted to emphasize the idea, which you mentioned before, that every human being believes in something. That's definitely true!! May be I forgot to say this before, an athiest once told me," I don't know if God exists, but I do know that faith has a strong power" He extented," if you believe in something strongly, you can make miracles happen... don't know how.. but it works!"

    In the same context, I was attending a class (some engineering class ) before, and the prof that was lecturing said," I do admire athiesm because it keeps you unbiased when searching for facts, doing research, so on..." then I directly replied," but as an athiest, you are very biased to the idea that God doesn't exist, you are biased to your own belief, so it doesn't make you any better than anyone!" Thankfully, the class instructor was fair and I got a decent grade in that class :)

    I just wanted to assert the very idea that athiests believe!! may be in themselves, maybe in science but they do beleive in something!

  • Your athiest friend surely knows that there was once a beginning of time and a beginning of life. Life had have had to start (same goes with time). There MUST (emphasis on must) be something which governs the universe and beyond.

    There is certainly a more superior governing spirit which watches over us. It is impossible for life to have just begun by itself with no creator and no end. Hence the Alpha and The Omega. There was a beginning (which has had to be made dependent of a force beyond human understanding; and not independtly created itself) and there certainly is an end.

    I may not be clear to readers, but try to make sence of the previous paragraph. Good luck to your friend; may he be given insight from his current blindness.
  • where is god?
    the answer is within you. you are the evidence of "GOD".

    existence? we didnt evlove from monkeys and apes, we are made in God's image! and according to the church and the bible

    "One is God the father of everyone, one is his son Jesus Christ the Word, who took flesh and died, and rose from the dead on the third day, AND RAISED US WITH HIM.

    ask your athesist friend,
    " Give me a good reason on why you believe there is no God" just because we can't see him doesnt mean hes not there.

    how many things do we believe in school, that they tell us that we cannot see? can u see, atoms, molecules, molecular compounds? yet we believe it because our teacher told us so, yet GOD, who took part in us, is always there for us, protects us, supports, preserves us and ACCEPTES us unto him and, STILL we cannot believe that he is there.

    ask abouna to pray on a picture of st.mary and give it to that person and tell them to always treasure it and keep it safe.
    st.mary will never let you down and won't let down her son either.

    pray for meeeee
    -- marmar
  • Hi Miena,

    There is a great book about the evidence of God by an athiest who became Christian, His name is Lee Strobel, He is not coptic but he went through this befire, there are tons of arguements, this book is called the case for Faith. give it to him or her and read it for yourself as well, one of the things I read is that athiests probably believe in the big bang theory, but in this theory they say that there was a big cloud at the beggining and then gravity and other stuff does its work, but let me tell you that even if you tell them ok there was a cloud (which of course wrong) you can ask him where does this cloud came from, it has to come from a creator,

    There are tons of stuff, but prayer is the one that makes it all work, pray for that person,
    and for me

  • Hi LMary,

    Thanks for the book!

  • The existence of God is a topic of grave implications and extensive proportions. Science itself is bordered on the realm of faith as much as religion is bordered on the realm of faith.

    The Atheist world belief fails to account for it's own pre-suppositions. It is illogical to imply that science must prove the existence of God, for God to exist.

    [glow=green, 2,000] THE INCOHERENCE OF ATHEISIM:[/glow]

    [shadow=silver,left]I. HOW CAN THE THEIST BE 100% CERTAIN GOD EXISTS.......or THAT EVEN HE , HIMSLEF, REALLY EXISTS?[/shadow]

    *Atheists presume that in order for God to exist there must be 100% certainty that such a Being actually can exist. However, can anyone really be 100 percent certain that knowledge requires 100 percent certainty? Not unless they have infinite knowledge of the universe....that is to say they were gods themselves.
    To choose between 100 percent certainty of knowing something or doubting everything is not a valid choice to make. There are many things in the world that we know, that we do not have 100 percent certainty of. We call many things "knowledge" although they are not 100 percent proven (Ex: We know that someone else is alive in Africa, although we can not directly see them. We are not 100 percent certain that there must people alive in Africa (unless we see every individual simultaneously on the continent) but we still consider such belief to be accurate knowledge.


    *The skeptic who asks wether or not a providential world exists beyond this one has no reason to ask such a question unless he inherently believes such a world is plausible. The very fact that such a question is given birth to suggests that there is an innate "feeling" that something greater then us does exist. Isn't it interesting that even atheists will celebrate holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, or even Easter because it "brings families together” or because it is a "rare and special occasion". Why is it that individuals are so enthralled by virtual reality, myths, fiction, movie theaters, etc..? [shadow=yellow,left]There is a definite sense of wanting transcendence. People are yearning for something greater then themselves all the time, even if they do not explicitly admit to it.[/shadow]

    [shadow=silver,left]III. A FALLACY OF ABSOULTE NEGATION[/shadow]

    *It is also illogical to posit an absolute negation of anything in the universe. The belief that something in the universe does not exist for certain, is erroneous. The very foundations of logic give way to the possibility of proving a positive existence of any presence, but never to assume an absolute negation of any object. As one renowned apologist noted:

    Were I to say to you that ‘there is no such thing as a black stone with white dots anywhere in this universe’….; the only possible way I could reasonably claim such a statement was if I held infinite knowledge about the universe. Yet a person may then question; “Ahh, but how can you prove the existence of a white stone in the universe?”.
    Well, all you would need then is the knowledge of the white stone with the black dots…, you don’t need infinite knowledge of the universe. [shadow=yellow,left]You don’t need infinite knowledge in order to posit the presence of something but you do need infinite knowledge to posit, absolutely, the negation of something[/shadow].”

    It is logically incorrect to declare the existence of something as implausible, without declaring complete totality over the universe and it’s every law. It’s like assuming one has total unlimited knowledge to tell others that there is no other Force with total unlimited knowledge. Were the individual to make such an assumption, he would in essence, be making himself equal to God.

    [shadow=silver,left]IV. THE ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE[/shadow]

    *The Atheist must account for the illegitimacy of his world belief in terms of it's relation to the surrounding universe. Atheism presupposes that the Universe is infinite and is eternal. If he did not, then he would have to account for an origin of a temporal universe.
    Unfortunately for the atheist, almost every astronomer or cosmological scholar will give way to the credibility of temporal universe that had to have been originated by the Big Bang. (I hardly doubt there's any scholar who holds adequate amount of evidence to dismiss such a theory.)
    It is a theory that insinuates the universe must have had a beginning and is, therefore, not an eternal universe. The expansion and contraction rate of the universe is only accounted by such a theory. [shadow=yellow,left]This belief then compells the question of what caused the Big Bang to begin with.[/shadow] The only plausible answer (excluding the fallible multiple universe theories that have been inconsistent) is that a Transcendence of some sort caused the Bing Bang to occur. Many astronomers have concluded that such a transcendent force must be both extremely intelligent and personal in order for the universe to hold the precise measurements it presently has. Thus, the Atheist belief is forced to completely deny all possibility of the Bing Bang and assumes, erroneously, the universe is eternal.

    [shadow=silver,left] V. IF GOD CREATED US, WHO CREATED GOD?[/shadow]

    The Atheist, as well as the five year old child retorts that if God created the universe then something or someone must have created God. As such, there can not be a God since it is illogical that this Being is not created and everything else is. This is an infantile and false conclusion. The notion of "creation" is only viable when placed in the dimension of space and time. God's very existence can not be placed in our present space time dimension since it degrades His transcendence and abases any belief in His omnipresence.
    There is no adequate reason to presume that God exists in our space-time dimension without also assuming He is aging and is therefore not truly eternal....not truly God. Therefore God, by definition, must surpass the laws and restrictions of our notion of time. [shadow=yellow,left]Only objects in our dimension of time are necessitated by the prospect of creation, specifically since time is a concept enmeshed with the past, present and future of an object. [/shadow] Everything in time must have had its beginning and ultimately its end. Therefore, since God is perpetual and everlasting He can not be restricted to our concept of space-time. He can not logically be created.
    The question of who created God, then, is like asking “why are bachelors not married.” It is an unintelligible question that holds the presumptions of a five-year old child. God's very reason for existence is in Himself, while the very reason of our existence is in Him.

    [shadow=silver,left] VI. A BENEFICENT GOD PERMITTING MALIGNANT EVIL?[/shadow]

    *One of the most compelling reasons for Atheism is the existence of evil. The Atheist will normally ask; "If God truly exists, why is there so much evil in the world?" However, such a question is self-defeating since it does not account for the pre-suppositions that create its foundations--what precisely is evil?
    If there is evil in the world, then the presumption must be there is also good. Yet, if there is good then there must be a moral law (an objective, absolute law) that differentiates good from evil. If there is a moral law then there must undoubtedly be a Moral Law Giver. Evil therefore, can not exist without the existence of a Moral Law Giver who is absolute. Evil can not exist if God does not exist. If there is no moral law--if our feelings are merely determined by the facets of good and evil---then good and evil would be subjective to a person's opinions. It would then be utterly wrong for an individual to claim this is “definitely” evil or malicious.
    The death, molestation and abuse of a child, widow, family member or friend would be no less worse then someone who killed an ant. The attacks on 9-11 would not truly be wrong, just “inconvenient” to the community. Civilization and the restorization of a society would be no greater or worse then entire annihilation of a society. In other words, without moral laws life would be horrendously unviable. (Just try asking your friend if they thought the Holocaust was "wrong" or not). [shadow=yellow,left]There can not be good and evil, kindness and maliciousness, if there is no higher Providence to create a measurment for such premises in life. [/shadow] Thus, the question "Why did this evil happen...." is a meaningless one if God does not exist.


    *The belief that, if there is a God, He must be validated or tested is also incoherent with its own pre-suppositions. First off, the definition of science is not objectively proposed, but is subjective to the whimsical beliefs of a majority of people. A large number of people may allocate science to mean "testable", "observable", "validifiable", "repetitive" and "verifiable". However, the conceptions of a large population is not sufficient to clarify something as objectively true. If every individual in the world believed that the the very text you are reading at this moment was typed up by an extraterrestrial alien life force, would that imply that their belief is profoundly correct? If so, then the existence of God should be an irrefutable fact since the “majority of people” believe in God. This however is not at all the case.
    Therefore, the belief in "adequate" science requires just as much faith as does the belief in Christianity. Ironically, the belief that something must be tested or it is not really valid is a belief that itself can not be tested and, therefore, is a belief that is not valid. [shadow=yellow,left]It's a self-defeating argument girded around philosophical pre-suppostions. [/shadow]

    Furthermore, the concept that science must be "observable" is on the basis of a incoherent bias. There are many valid scientific theories and accepted "facts" that can not be directly observed. Take for example, the theory of The Bing Bang in which, although there are observable faculties of the past, there are still many unobservable incidents that make up inferences regarding the theory. Did anyone actually view the explosion occur? I highly doubt it. Most scientists will likewise argue that sub-atomic particles exist in our universe. Nevertheless they are not particles sensually seen. The empiricism of science itself seems to be baggaged around a variety of biases and assumptions.

    [shadow=silver,left] VIII. IF GOD EXISTS.....WELL, WHERE IS HE?[/shadow]

    *The belief that God, if He existed, would clearly reveal Himself is rather egocentric. We presume that the God of all things "seen and unseen" must reveal himself directly, otherwise, He is a false Being or an apathetic Being. This belief is centered on our desire to absolutely know whether or not God is who He claims to be. However, were the Almighty to reveal Himself, inevitably all individuals would austerely commit themselves to Him due to the magnificence of His glory. By definition for God to be omnipotent, His glory would necessarily need to exceed our present enthrallment of this life. His glory can not be subject to the asceticism of the "apparent" universe or it would not truly be magnificent at all. Yet since "no eye has seen and no ear has heard" God must be a Being who pervades all of our visual and aesthetic sensations. He would only be God if His glory surpassed the visible entities of this world.
    [shadow=yellow,left]Thus, if God were to reveal Himself, because of His magnificence, all individuals would be utterly compelled to follow Him, not divinley persuaded.[/shadow] Our absolute enthrallment with God would consequentially denounce any concept of free will for ourselves. Our accusations of God would then be, not that He failed to reveal Himself, but that He forcefully caused us to follow Him. In either circumstance God becomes a vile and unjust Being that fails to comply with our expectations of a Loving God. It is more reasonable then that a God of freedom, benevolence and philanthropy calls men to believe in Him indirectly, then to directly reveal Himself, and call all men to believe in Him forcefully. If God is truly a God of beneficence and love then it would only make sense that His revelation be implicitly found within the good deeds and hearts of men. At least until the final judgment.

    These are but a fragment of reasons why the Atheist world belief is not essentially coherent. For as the gospels declare, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.." (1 Corinthians 2:14)

    I hope this helps.

    God bless.

  • God is in heave
    of course ;D
  • Heres an interesting true story..im sure many people have heard of this:

    This is a true story of something that happened just a few years ago at USC. There was a professor of philosophy there who was a deeply committed atheist. His primary goal for one required class was to spend the entire semester attempting to prove that God couldn't exist. His students were always afraid to argue with him because of his impeccable logic. For twenty years, he had taught this class and no one had ever had the courage to go against him. Sure, some had argued in class at times, but no one had ever 'really gone against him' (you'll see what I mean later).

    Nobody would go against him because he had a reputation. At the end of every semester, on the last day, he would say to his class of 300 students, "If there anyone here who still believes in Jesus, stand up!" In twenty years, no one had ever stood up. They knew what he was going to do next. He would say, "because anyone who does believe in God is a fool. If God existed, he could stop this piece of chalk from hitting the ground and breaking. Such a simple task to prove that he is God, and yet he can't do it." And every year, he would drop the chalk onto the tile floor of the classroom and it would shatter into a hundred pieces. The students could do nothing but stop and stare. Most of the students were convinced that God couldn't exist. Certainly, a number of Christians had slipped through, but for 20 years, they had been too afraid to stand up.

    Well, a few years ago, there was a freshman who happened to get enrolled in the class. He was a Christian, and had heard the stories about this professor. He had to take the class because it was one of the required classes for his major and he was afraid. But for 3 months that semester, he prayed every morning that he would have the courage to stand up no matter what the professor said or what the class thought. Nothing they said or did could ever shatter his faith, he hoped.

    Finally the day came. The professor said, "If there is anyone here who still believes in God, stand up!" The professor and the class of 300 people looked at him, shocked, as he stood up at the back of the classroom. The professor shouted, "You FOOL!! If God existed, he could keep this piece of chalk from breaking when it hit the ground!" He proceeded to drop the chalk, but as he did, it slipped out of his fingers, off his shirt cuff, onto the pleats of his pants, down his leg, and off his shoe. As it hit the ground, it simply rolled away, unbroken.

    The professor's jaw dropped as he stared at the chalk. He looked up at the young man and then ran out of the lecture hall. The young man who had stood up proceeded to walk to the front of the room and share his faith in Jesus for the next half hour. 300 students stayed and listened as he told of God's love for them and of his power through Jesus.
  • giving a logical explanation as to How God Exists is in a sense oxymoronic.

    How can we call him God (a higher power/being) and yet limit his existence so that it can be comprehended to a HUMAN mind.

    God is like a huge ocean..and our mind is like a cup. We cannot carry the entire ocean in a cup. Same goes with God; we will never be able to fully grasp the concept of his existence; BUT we do know that he exists because of the miracles, the scriptures, the Prophesies that have been fulfilled. We walk by faith, not by sight.
  • As mentioned earlier there are many former sceptics and athiests like Lee Strobel which have actually came to Christ through trying to disprove the existance of Jesus or God logically and scientifically. I think the truth is all that all of God's creation and history points directly to its creator.
    Great books on historical, scientific and archeological evidence of God and Jesus are:
    The Case for faith, The Case for a creator, The Case for Christ- Lee Strobel
    Evidence that demands a verdict, More than a carpenter - Josh Mcdowell
  • Hi,

    In fact, if we try to prove the existence of God using science we will all fail. However, one can disprove the non existence claim. Read what follows carefully. A God that we can perceive, fully apprehend, prove his absolute presence and analyze is not a God for then he would be limited. In other words if our minds could encompass him, then he is limited by the forces of our minds. Since u wanna be scientific ya Mina, let me be even more elaborate and use some example from my engineering background. For any communication channel, there exists some quantity called capacity (C). The maximum rate (R) that u could communicate through the channel is equal to the maximum mutual information I(X,Y) that u could ever achieve between the source (X) and the destination (Y). Imagine now that u have a source with infinite entropy H(X) : U will never be able to communicate this source with infinite rate through the channel simply because the channel has its own limitations H(X)>C. God is the infinite source, our minds represent the limited capacity channel. This channel will never be able to fit to all the "uncertainty" in the source. So the interesting part now...since we were never able to prove scientifically the presence of God and given the infinite amount of "unknown" stuff in this universe, then this tells, with a certain confidence, that there exists an infinite source of information that our channel (minds) is not able to observe with enough fidelity!!!! So this counterexample disproves the non-existence of an infinite source. Disproving non existence is an acceptable proof of existence.

    After this analysis I remembered the story of this monk who got some doubts concerning the presence of God. On of those days, he went for a walk by the beach where he saw a young kid playin in the sand. He asked the kid: "what are u doing son". So the kid answered him:"I am trying to put the water of this ocean in this hole that I made in the sand". The monk laughed and said:"Son..this is impossible. U can't put this huge ocean in this tiny hole.". The kid looked at him and said: "Since u know that..why are u trying to put the infinite God in your tiny mind." The kid disappeared..he turned out to be an angel.

    The last thing I would like to say is that "Faith" is what really "proves" the presence of God and not the absolute "logic". The more humble one is, the easier he can believe in the presence of God. The more sophisticated one gets, the further he goes away from the truth. :)

    Have a nice day guys.

    George (Boston).
  • God is within us

    In our peacefull actions towards evil.

    In the choice of figiving when others sin or do harm to us.

    God in what we tell the world who we are.

    giving love ... is giving God. Showing love is showing God.

    I think if we all become the light to the world with our actions, we will give satisfying answers to those who want to know where is God.

    My advice is to pray to God asking power, knowledge and grace to be his light to the world.

    Put your friends names on the Mazbah and pray to the Lord to touch their hearts and call for them to come to his arms.

    Prayers are powerfull.

    Emad from Sydney

    I'd like to share this song with you all.

    Enjoy ...
  • Hello,

    Did you guys like that song?

    I see no one commented :o

    Oh well, maybe you did not see it.

    It is sang by a man named Ashraf Anwar.


  • god is in heaven go up until the stop sign take a left at the white cloud and then ull find him either getting praised by angels or in an escalade.
  • God doesn't need to ride in escalades; He rides on angels' wings. (Refer to Ezekiel Chapter 1) ;)

  • Where is God?

    GOD is everywhere, everyplace right next to you. he doesnt have to show himself to you to prove that he is there. just think about it. Why would you want to see GOD, are you that great of a person. Be modest not kocky, no one is great enough to be in god's prescense, and when he takes us to heaven, we'll have nothing to complain about.

    it doesnt matter where god is, all that matters is if you take him into your heart. He can be right infront of you and you could shut the door on him. Rather accept him by showing that you are a true christian, through acts and deeds. make people want to be just like you, this is how you know were god is.

    dont surround your self with areas that you know, God would never set foot in and dont befriend others that go against the christian belief. ;)

    and where is God? he is watching you right now and keeping you safe, that's where he is.
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