What point does closing a discussion of St. Mary's many virtues prove?


If you want to prove a point, keep this open.


  • Okay. What is your defense, for the title, "Theotokos"?

    Every translation I've read comes to "Mother of God". Now, I like St. Mary as much as anyone else, but is that really appropriate?

    As Nestorius said, "Let her not become a goddess". He wouldn't hold a confession of faith against you. 

    So what was Cyril on about? Are there letters between them? Thanks
  • PS. I always blog at 4:03 AM.
  • One of the problems of Nestorius is denying a way for unity between God and man. He continues to use language to make it sound like Jesus and the Word are two different people, united not naturally or hypostatically, but by will, or a moral Union, like between any two people. St. Cyril argued that the language Nestorius uses makes Jesus no different from a prophet or saint. The Word also dwells in us, and so does the Holy Spirit. What makes you and I any different from Jesus other than a consubstantial humanity?

    The fact is Jesus IS the Word. Therefore, since Jesus is the uncreated Word of God who took flesh as HIS VERY OWN, St. Mary is rightfully called Theotokos. And we too give birth to God by our very actions and love for Christ as well, as Christ taught, "whoever does the will of God is my brother, my sister, and my mother."

    Nestorius is therefore an anti-deification doctrine. It separates man from God. A lot of Protestantism is Nestorianism, particularly Calvinism. Ibas of Mari, a follower of Theodore of Mopsuestia, the forerunner of Nestorianism, once mocked St. Cyril and the doctrine of deification of the Alexandrian church to his priests saying, "I don't envy Jesus becoming God, since as much as He became God, so can I."

    So Nestorius is wrong, very wrong, and destroys the purpose of our salvation and the unity of Christ. That is why we defend the title "Theotokos". If she is not Theotokos, Jesus is not Theos, and we cannot have Theosis.
  • He does sound that way. 
  • edited December 2014
    You're back.
  • edited December 2014
    So in the end, Nestorianism teaches "Jesus became God, and you can be like Jesus." Orthodoxy says, "God became man, and so Jesus did not become God, but Jesus IS God. And so He became man so you can be become God."

    Also, the phrase "Theotokos" is not something St. Cyril made up on his own.  Origen, St. Gregory the Wonderworker, St. Athanasius, St. Gregory the Theologian (especially the last two who are unquestionable authorities of the Church) all used the term and showed hints of veneration of her person.

    I think mcarmichael, you need to relax a bit.  You need to ask questions in a kind and patient manner, and not throw a couple of posts in a row in an angry fashion.  You're in a Coptic forum.  So you have to respect the fact that if you are to come here and learn, ask kindly, and some of us will answer your questions.  You came off in attack mode, and this caused a locking of the thread.  I didn't see the thread in time to try to answer your question, but I was sad by how you jumped to a belligerent attitude assuming you know something, when in fact the issue is more complicated than how you make it seem.  So rather than blame the admin, have you thought about how you come off when you ask these questions?  Have you thought, "maybe the way I wrote my posts caused offense."

    Nestorius was a confused man and confused others with him.  Even his own friends abandoned him only to stick with Theodore of Mopsuestia, which continued to confuse minds in the same way.  I recently was able to save up enough money to buy Fr. John Behr's book "The Case Against Theodore and Diodore", which offers an in-depth study and defense on the Orthodox Church's condemnation of these two men.

    God bless.
  • edited December 2014
    The Assyrian Church doesn't argue any of those points. They only say, regarding St. Mary, that God is Eternal, St. Mary is mortal.

    Edit: Off-topic
  • edited December 2014
    I didn't mention the Assyrian Church.  I'm simply using Nestorius.  And he wasn't condemned posthumously.  He was condemned while he was still alive.  In fact, he was alive when the Tome of Leo was written and sent to Flavian in the year 448 AD.

    And remember what I said about respect?
  • edited December 2014
    I wouldn't talk to you if I didn't respect you at least a little bit. heh.
  • And remember what I said about respect?
    I see why you mentioned it, now.

    Overall I think I understand this issue a little better now, and I'll consider your advice. Thanks for the reply.
  • God bless you brother! Hope you understand the apprehension that comes from the terminology used.
  • Yeah and you were absolutely correct and I really owe you an apology. God bless you. Unfortunately I was drinking heavily. Should I not mention that? I do not retain a perfect memory of what happened here. It was a huge mistake. I know I have a problem with it, and I know that I shouldn't have a problem with it, and I want to be a brewer?

    I'm fine. You're too nice, really. Not that I intend to be disruptive again in the future, but I've been disruptive once+, I've already confessed drinking to excess, I'm too old for a babysitter, I mean....

    The other @mina already banned me, ...

    Not to call too much attention to myself, brother, but as an apology for any trouble I might have caused you.
  • No problem my friend!  It's okay.  We all have our ups and downs.
  • I'm confused on why mcarmichael was deleted. 
  • Me too Ifahmy. I think the moderation here is getting ridiculously unfair. This is a forum. Not a synod meeting. This is a forum. Not a theologians meeting house. This is fun. Friendly. Challenging. A community where people are tolerated. Someone who evidently has a different personality (an amazingly interesting one at that) should not be deleted this way.

    And my discontent will likely be met with some moderation or some implication as to what sins against the most high I've committed by being discontent. 

  • :-) why worry to much?!
    mcarmichael made up an account after the other one was banned. So all i did is remove the ban from the other and delete the newest one he did......
  • edited December 2014

    I think the moderation here is getting ridiculously unfair. This is a forum. Not a synod meeting.

  • God bless all of you.

    I was having a rough day. I'm not complaining, but I lol'd too.
  • Thank God you're alive. We thought they killed you.
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