Constantine

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  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158454#msg158454 date=1344028437]
    [quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158451#msg158451 date=1344027901]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233]
    May be this will make it clear,

    He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.



    Ok,thanks..so strange that the COC realised the error after many many centuries. However, where does it say that the "the Church knows about the error, he will be removed"..

    In other words,

    "I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (Remember Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood."

    I will make it easier.If you have no such sources,STATE SO and we move on!!


    I have stated the source many times. You chose to ignore it.

    Rest assured that Constantine will be removed from the COC dyptich for his Arianism belief.


    Lol... thanks for putting smile on my face.
    By now I am used to your ways of saying NO I do not have any sources, but TRUST me I am RIGHT!....As I promised earlier, now we can move on!! Cheers.
  • [quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158456#msg158456 date=1344029289]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158454#msg158454 date=1344028437]
    [quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158451#msg158451 date=1344027901]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233]
    May be this will make it clear,

    He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.



    Ok,thanks..so strange that the COC realised the error after many many centuries. However, where does it say that the "the Church knows about the error, he will be removed"..

    In other words,

    "I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (Remember Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood."

    I will make it easier.If you have no such sources,STATE SO and we move on!!


    I have stated the source many times. You chose to ignore it.

    Rest assured that Constantine will be removed from the COC dyptich for his Arianism belief.


    Lol... thanks for putting smile on my face.
    By now I am used to your ways of saying NO I do not have any sources, but TRUST me I am RIGHT!....As I promised earlier, now we can move on!! Cheers.


    I am glad you are smiling.

    Do no be shy to contact Abouna Shenouda Maher. He will help you understand why we cannot accept Constantine as a saint.

  • how can a Coptic Orthodox believer ask an Arian person for intercession. To whom that one will intercede, to the Word of God Incarnate or to another god whom I do not believe on.
  • [quote author=sherene_maria link=topic=13549.msg158461#msg158461 date=1344031728]
    how can a Coptic Orthodox believer ask an Arian person for intercession. To whom that one will intercede, to the Word of God Incarnate or to another god whom I do not believe on.


    Excellent observation Sherene_Maria
  • These are obviously deep, misunderstood and therefore personally controversial questions for sincere Orthodox Christians.

    Thank you, imikhail, for showing us, throughout this discussion, a living example of Jesus' demonstration of true faith in response to the devil's temptations at the beginning of His ministry, Mt. 4:1-11, which concludes: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve." Jesus concluded his ministry by reassuring his frightened disciples, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ... . He who does not love me does not keep my words; and this word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me." Jn 14:15-24.

    Your opponents have bombarded your truth (thesis) with many attractive and demeaning proposals (antitheses) to seek to compromise (synthesize) your position of truth. This is the Hegelian dialectic. The exact, clever,  modern (progressive, liberal, ecumenical, reasonable, evangelical, inoffensive, psychological, unity, compassionate, nonjudgmental, WCC, purpose driven, etc., etc.) version of the method of the temptation of Eve in the Garden that led to her disobedience and the banishment of the first family and of all mankind. Gen. 3:1-19.

    What specific Gospel verses and Apostolic orthodox spiritual principles would qualify warrior, politician Constantine for sanctification in the OO Church, or in the true Christian Church? Isn't he the proto-politicizer of the Church? Didn't St. Athanasius ask, concerning him, "What is the business of the Emperor in the affairs of the Church? What is the business of the Church in the affairs of the Empire?” Do we assert higher spiritual wisdom than St. Athanasius? Thankfully there is a technical basis to end this seeming hypocrisy and confusion. Hopefully we will soon receive this correction, another unique blessing of our Coptic Church. Constantine could be honored as a political or military leader of the christian secular cause (comparable to Churchill or Eisenhower in our era), but nothing more. Of course the EO have had many “holy” Emperors, Caesars and Czars and have their own “theology” to accomodate them. I don’t think Jesus, His Apostles, or St. Athanasius originated this theology. Constantine? Maybe.

    The web should be used to edify and strengthen Coptic youth, and the general laity. Instead, we often  receive proposed compromises of orthodox principles and faith that is confusing to the whole English speaking OO Church, especially when the acquiescence to compromise is from popular or influential persons within the Church itself. This Western/modern acquiescense is then easily taken up by the “more modern” enemies of the traditional church in Egypt/Ethiopia/Eriteria, etc. Coptic Christianity could soon, very quickly, decay to the level of apostacy and irrelevance as the current European RC and Protestant (including that of the disgraceful drunken, aborting Irish Catholic “believers” at home and throughout the world) “faithful.” The too familiar ecumenical litany, from our own modern academic and intellectual advocates, is the following: [It is old fashioned to believe and worship as our parents do. The world is “advancing” through new ideas of science.  It is only rational and logical that the church should also “advance” to new, modern, thoughts in order to obtain new, modern members from the modern world. These “advances” also need to be used to update the ignorant, backward Egyptian Coptic laity and clergy]. Once this open minded “modernization” gets a start, it is unstoppable. After a slow start, nearly all of European and North American “christianity” has been modernized and ecumenized (faith to debauchery) in about forty years. This paradigm should help the demise of Egyptian christianity move “ahead” faster. NO THANKS, for me.   

    How many years have the ecumenism seekers spent in actual spiritual life within the groups they advocate unity with? Why are significant numbers from these groups leaving to seek alternate spiritual opportunities? I can't think of any moral or spiritual enrichment or even a status quo (except possibly from the traditional EO theology of iconography) that the Coptic Church laity would receive from its spiritual dilution with any of these mentioned unity candidates. Why unite with weaker, adversarial, churches to our own spiritual detriment? I believe we should accept their sincere refugees to our church (through true Orthodox initiation, as necessary) for the mutual benefits of all. Isn't division a God given blessing in this regard? For example, what practical moral or spiritual reality, to the struggling Coptic faithful, do intellectual discussions between unofficial  "Coptic theologians" and their Catholic counterparts have? Isn't the obvious Elephant (or Camel, or naked emperor) in the room, the general deplorable exponential growth of "modern" Catholic immorality? Do we need some of that? Shhh! don't judge. EO compromises don’t match the Catholic’s, but would still seem to be detrimental to Coptic spiritual life. For instance, the feminism and freudianism heresies are now far more advanced and established in some EO jurisdictions than in the Coptic Church. Many prominent Greek Orthodox theologians and clergy now semi-secretly advocate for ordination of women to the Orthodox priesthood. Their banner carrier seems to be the famous Greek Orthodox Bishop, HG Bishop Kallistos Ware, who thinly veils his seemingly open approval. Coptic feminists that I have known openly reveal their devotion to Bishop Kallistos. Our church should not encourage Coptic women to join this rebellion against their own spiritual best interests and against God’s long established (since creation) gender and family order, by seeming to approve advocates of this new, widely popular heresy.   

    These are meant to be rhetorical questions that answer themselves, but I will try to respond, if asked.
    .     
    I just want to thank and support imikhail, without presuming that he wants or needs it.
  • Selection of a new pontiff + irishpilgrim = Freud/woman/patriarchal values.
    Constantine + irishpilgrim = Freud/woman/patriarchal values.
    Anything + irishpilgrim = Freud/woman/patriarchal values.

    Gets annoying.

    But I agree with Sherenemaria

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • [quote author=sherene_maria link=topic=13549.msg158461#msg158461 date=1344031728]
    how can a Coptic Orthodox believer ask an Arian person for intercession. To whom that one will intercede, to the Word of God Incarnate or to another god whom I do not believe on.

    This is for God to judge. As a Coptic Orthodox believer, I believe God is capable of accepting Emperor Constantine in the chorus of the saints even if he was baptized by an Arian. We're not God. We don't know exactly what Emperor Constantine did. We don't know if Constantine's heart was Orthodox, even if he was baptized by Arianism. We don't know if he was baptized by an Orthodox bishop who later became Arian. There are literally thousands of possible answers to your questions. Only God knows. All that is important to me is that the Coptic Orthodox Church (and many, many other Orthodox Churches) still recognize him as Orthodox. Until that changes, let's not sit in God's judgment seat.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13549.msg159586#msg159586 date=1346780454]
    [quote author=sherene_maria link=topic=13549.msg158461#msg158461 date=1344031728]
    how can a Coptic Orthodox believer ask an Arian person for intercession. To whom that one will intercede, to the Word of God Incarnate or to another god whom I do not believe on.

    This is for God to judge. As a Coptic Orthodox believer, I believe God is capable of accepting Emperor Constantine in the chorus of the saints even if he was baptized by an Arian. We're not God. We don't know exactly what Emperor Constantine did. We don't know if Constantine's heart was Orthodox, even if he was baptized by Arianism. We don't know if he was baptized by an Orthodox bishop who later became Arian. There are literally thousands of possible answers to your questions. Only God knows. All that is important to me is that the Coptic Orthodox Church (and many, many other Orthodox Churches) still recognize him as Orthodox. Until that changes, let's not sit in God's judgment seat.



    God has given the church the authority to bind and loose on earth. The Almighty will judge her if she err. Does not the first three chapters of the Book of Revelation are about the dealing of the Lord with the seven churches? The church according to her FAITH will determinate the saints, who abides with that faith, to intercede for her.
  • But then we are argueing over who is a church and who isn't by who is a saint and who isn't.
  • Posted by: ReturnOrthodoxy
    « on: Today at 11:20:49 AM » Insert Quote
    Selection of a new pontiff + irishpilgrim = Freud/woman/patriarchal values.
    Constantine + irishpilgrim = Freud/woman/patriarchal values.
    Anything + irishpilgrim = Freud/woman/patriarchal values.

    Gets annoying.

    Why is the exclusively patriarchal paradigm of God's Word annoying? Show me a page in a traditional Bible, in any language, that isn't patriarchal. Is your ear and heart now only tuned to the latest feminist/freudian - politically correct, gender inclusive language -  Bible revisions and sermons? Listen carefully to the Coptic Liturgy and its readings - they are still patriarchal, but maybe not for long. I haven't heard a patriarchal sermon since my FOG was drowned out by the boos and hisses of the parish's women leaders. He has returned to Egypt, but the bishops and remaining priests got the message, load and clear - deafening silence, coast to coast to coast. Bring on more civil divorces, child support, and fatherless Coptic children. Get your own Coptic psychologist, be happy, have fun, but leave seyedna and abouna alone. It is more ecumenical to have your own women (and lesbian) priests and bishops. Get together, hug and dance, be modern, this is the twenty first (and last?) century.

    How about some more blessings of insults, revilings, fabricated defamations? The girls are loving it. Me too.

     

  • I don't find peace in any of this. I don't find anyone taking ownership  of the problem if there really is one by saying to themselves what can I do to fix the problem, but rather having others feel as though they have to defend themselves.
    My feelings are we worship God and from worship comes honour and from honour comes respect. With respect you can agree to disagree and still be together without losing the one you disagree with.
  • I sure miss Father Peter. I can't even travel the forums without running into crap like this.
  • geomike, are you referring to what I have said. Read what you have said, and do you find any peace in what you have said. I am interested in what is said but I'm also interested in the way we say it. I miss Father Peter greatly and I wish I could of obeyed him by him wanting us to talk about what what our church fathers say and the patristics. Of this I know very little and was hoping to be informed. So if I went astray then why couldn't anyone help me as to what the church fathers say? I was guided by my heart and conscience which tells me not respecting others is wrong. Why shouldn't I fight seperation as it is sin that seperates? I have always been ready to say sorry for anything even if it wasn't my fault, but if I'm not accused of anything what am I to say? I am not corrected so I don't learn from any mistakes I make. I believe we are on the same side but sadly there is seperation by the way we say things and I am saddened by the disrespect. None of it sounds christian or brave and this also saddens me as then there is nothing for me to learn of which I sorely needed guidance. Respect.

        I pray for peace in everyones heart and I will follow Father Peter, even though I have never given up on anything or anyone, as it was God who made me strong and I was always brave and now there is no use for me but I hope you all know that I love you all very much as God has loved me.
  • [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13549.msg159599#msg159599 date=1346821375]
    geomike, are you referring to what I have said. Read what you have said, and do you find any peace in what you have said. I am interested in what is said but I'm also interested in the way we say it. I miss Father Peter greatly and I wish I could of obeyed him by him wanting us to talk about what what our church fathers say and the patristics. Of this I know very little and was hoping to be informed. So if I went astray then why couldn't anyone help me as to what the church fathers say? I was guided by my heart and conscience which tells me not respecting others is wrong. Why shouldn't I fight seperation as it is sin that seperates? I have always been ready to say sorry for anything even if it wasn't my fault, but if I'm not accused of anything what am I to say? I am not corrected so I don't learn from any mistakes I make. I believe we are on the same side but sadly there is seperation by the way we say things and I am saddened by the disrespect. None of it sounds christian or brave and this also saddens me as then there is nothing for me to learn of which I sorely needed guidance. Respect.

        I pray for peace in everyones heart and I will follow Father Peter, even though I have never given up on anything or anyone, as it was God who made me strong and I was always brave and now there is no use for me but I hope you all know that I love you all very much as God has loved me.


    First of all I am not referring to you. Second of all I love how i am just attacked for voicing my opinion. An opinion that you agree with.

    Don't take everything personally.

  •   I'm sorry geomike I don't want to make you feel defensive because I was feeling defensive.
        Again sorry my brother.

      I want to honour father Peter in spirit now as much as I am able by watching the messages of patristics. I would only like to talk of good things and it would be my wish that others seek their victory in Christ than dwell too much on the pains of life. Our church fathers' knowledge is vast and the answers are there.

    As far as Contantine is concerned Sherene_maria is right the Apostles had the right to bind and loose and decide who were to be saints according to the faith of the church. All these are in harmony with each other: church, faith, saints, but there are also other apostles who have done the same thing. So then we will have one church saying someone is a saint and another church saying he isn't. We have found Constantine in our diptych so the question for me is; how would removing him be beneficial at this time of the church trying to be ecumenical? Father Peter was a leader in this regard. You know I'm for peace.

    When we are going to be truthful we try to be as tactfull as possible and this action is a little insensitive to me. It won't effect our church so much but it does weaken a possible relationship with another church.         

  •   I would also like to add the authourity Jesus Christ gave the apostles to bind and loose has had the effect on how much faith that church has.

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