Praying in Coptic -- praying without understanding

124

Comments

  • Andrew and Fr. Peter,
    Andrew's initial question that Mina replied to wasn't only about language.. I guess Mina therefore didn't mean to address that point per se
    Oujai
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg152055#msg152055 date=1329430531]
    Why will the Church crumble if people worship in English? That doesn't make any sense.


    I agree Father,

    The Church will not crumble if people pray in English, but it won't crumble either if people pray in Coptic. The Church is the Church, her beauty remains regardless of the language being prayed in. However I do love the fact that the Coptic Church prays in the Majority of the Speakers, as I have noticed in every single Coptic Church I myself have been in.

    Also, as someone meantioned before about them not joining heresy, Those that go along to Protestant churches, recieve sacraments there, are under Automatic Excommunication. there is no simpler way to put it. Those that just go there to jump around, well thats between them and their confession father. I myself sometimes go to Christian Rock concerts on a sunday night at hillsong, and its certainly not Church. But its nonetheless fun. Doesn't mean i "Bring" Hillsong back with me. I do have a dream to write true Orthodox hymns in Contemporary style one day, but teh Liturgy itself has to remain untouched.

    Please pray for me.
  • Since we agree that the church will not ever crumble, whatever language the people worship in, why the resistance to more English and less Coptic?

    It seems that it can only be more beneficial to the worshipers to understand what they are saying.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg152055#msg152055 date=1329430531]
    Why will the Church crumble if people worship in English? That doesn't make any sense.

    I didn't say that....i wasn't specifically speaking concerning the language. I was answering "Why do we feel the need to be connected to the church in Egypt?"
  • Is the language the only thing connecting us? I think the Orthodox faith we share is far more important. As long as that connection remains, who cares if we both pray in Coptic? If we share the same faith, we are one.

    I mean how long can we keep this up for in the U.S.? 25 yrs? 50? 100? Eventually we won't be Egyptians. . .

    I don't think the immigration rate will be enough to sustain the cultural ties with Egypt. Immigration and Naturalization laws will only get tougher in the U.S. as time passes.
  • [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg152065#msg152065 date=1329434131]
    Is the language the only thing connecting us? I think the Orthodox faith we share is far more important. As long as that connection remains, who cares if we both pray in Coptic? If we share the same faith, we are one.
    That will take us back to the importance of hymns and the coptic rite. I will not argue about that.

    I mean how long can we keep this up for in the U.S.? 25 yrs? 50? 100? Eventually we won't be Egyptians. . .

    oh.....don't worry. it doesn't matter we discuss here on the forum.....it will keep going.

    I don't think the immigration rate will be enough to sustain the cultural ties with Egypt. Immigration and Naturalization laws will only get tougher in the U.S. as time passes.

    so what?! cursed are those who are already here?!
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12897.msg152066#msg152066 date=1329434445]
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg152065#msg152065 date=1329434131]
    Is the language the only thing connecting us? I think the Orthodox faith we share is far more important. As long as that connection remains, who cares if we both pray in Coptic? If we share the same faith, we are one.
    That will take us back to the importance of hymns and the coptic rite. I will not argue about that.

    Praying in Coptic will take us back to the importance of hymns, but praying in English won't?

    I mean how long can we keep this up for in the U.S.? 25 yrs? 50? 100? Eventually we won't be Egyptians. . .

    oh.....don't worry. it doesn't matter we discuss here on the forum.....it will keep going.
    What will keep going?

    I don't think the immigration rate will be enough to sustain the cultural ties with Egypt. Immigration and Naturalization laws will only get tougher in the U.S. as time passes.

    so what?! cursed are those who are already here?!
    No. But eventually even they will lose their Egyptian culture.
  • It is possible to be connected to the Church in Egypt without being Egyptian. The Church of Estonia or Finland is part of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople but neither are Greek at all. Likewise the Church of Ethiopia until recently, and the British Orthodox and French Orthodox today. To be part of one of the major sees does not and has never required the adoption of that major sees culture as a necessity. The Greek community ib Italy was part of the Roman Church but did not use Latin.

    This isn't to say what should be done but one language and culture had never been required nor has it been the case in history. Quite the contrary.
  • I mean how long can we keep this up for in the U.S.? 25 yrs? 50? 100? Eventually we won't be Egyptians. . .

    oh.....don't worry. it doesn't matter we discuss here on the forum.....it will keep going.
    What will keep going?
    BEGIN EGYPTIAN!!! BEING COPTIC in the land of immigration. that will keep going.

    I don't think the immigration rate will be enough to sustain the cultural ties with Egypt. Immigration and Naturalization laws will only get tougher in the U.S. as time passes.

    so what?! cursed are those who are already here?!
    No. But eventually even they will lose their Egyptian culture.
    such a conundrum.......people go to Egypt (or other places in the world) and spend many yrs to learn about our heritage and our civilization and we are choosing to let it go.......you are speculating that it will go but it will not. I strongly disagree and believe that will not happen.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12897.msg152069#msg152069 date=1329444011]

    I mean how long can we keep this up for in the U.S.? 25 yrs? 50? 100? Eventually we won't be Egyptians. . .

    oh.....don't worry. it doesn't matter we discuss here on the forum.....it will keep going.
    What will keep going?
    BEGIN EGYPTIAN!!! BEING COPTIC in the land of immigration. that will keep going.

    I don't think the immigration rate will be enough to sustain the cultural ties with Egypt. Immigration and Naturalization laws will only get tougher in the U.S. as time passes.

    so what?! cursed are those who are already here?!
    No. But eventually even they will lose their Egyptian culture.
    such a conundrum.......people go to Egypt (or other places in the world) and spend many yrs to learn about our heritage and our civilization and we are choosing to let it go.......you are speculating that it will go but it will not. I strongly disagree and believe that will not happen.


    Our faith is Christocentric not ethnocentric. I don't care if all the scholars in the world go to learn about Copts. That's nice and I have pride in that, but so what?!

    Obviously the culture will not fade (quickly) in Egypt, but in the States it will. To think otherwise is to be naive.

  • Oh..... protestants faith is also Christocentric. Many people who have faith in Christ as a 'personal God' are also Christocentric. we are Orthodox from a Coptic perspective and yes it is much effected by the culture--the 'flavor' as Fr Markos Ayoub likes to say all the time. This is like the Antiochian Church, the Armenian Church and all the other Oriental Orthodox Churches. We are Orthodox yet still true to our foundations and roots. I believe it will stay that way for many more years.

    Don't expect me to answer to anymore question.....I am done arguing in this thread, we are just going around in circles. 
  • We keep going in circles because you keep making small side comments.

    Your last post added nothing new to the discussion. You keep saying that  we need to stay true to our roots.

    Are our roots Orthodoxy or Coptic culture?

    If the latter, how long do you think you can tell the people in America to "stay true to their roots"? What is the benefit of promoting our Coptic culture in the American born youth?

    You have presented no positive argument. You haven't even said what we should do.
  • [quote author=lankyknight1990 link=topic=12897.msg152062#msg152062 date=1329432972]
    I do have a dream to write true Orthodox hymns in Contemporary style one day, but teh Liturgy itself has to remain untouched.


    I would really like to see that coming to fruition, and I believe you would be uniquely placed to assist in such a mammoth task.
  • [quote author=lankyknight1990 link=topic=12897.msg152062#msg152062 date=1329432972]
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg152055#msg152055 date=1329430531]
    Why will the Church crumble if people worship in English? That doesn't make any sense.

    I do have a dream to write true Orthodox hymns in Contemporary style one day, but teh Liturgy itself has to remain untouched.

    Please pray for me.


    I disagree. Did St. Athanasius go to Ethiopia and say the liturgy has to be untouched? He probably handed them the outline of what the liturgy was like back then and then commissioned locals to set appropriate music to the Ethiopian (Geez) words.

    It may be too early in the game to start composing our own reverant, north american musical versions of "amen amen amen your death O Lord" because we grew up with the coptic chant. But what about establishing mission parishes where the congregation is entirely or mostly made up of converts? At least it would be Orthodox and not the rediculous protestant hymns that most of our churches sing these days.

    Practically we won't let go of arabic or coptic soon especially because of all the people immigrating from Egypt these days with the situation over there.

    I teach a hymns chanting class to boys and girls in grades 4-6. I tried to teach them the 4th Canticle (from Midnight Praises) in Coptic initially and they had such a hard time so I switched to english. After learning most of the verses, now some of them are asking to learn it in Coptic. I think this approach is better. Teach them what they understand and then they will desire to go the extra mile since they see how beautiful and meaningful it is.
  • The Issue for me isnt praying in Coptic or English. I want to pray in English. But Im more in the middle, Rather then "All Coptic" or "all english"
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12897.msg152085#msg152085 date=1329463363]
    I teach a hymns chanting class to boys and girls in grades 4-6. I tried to teach them the 4th Canticle (from Midnight Praises) in Coptic initially and they had such a hard time so I switched to english. After learning most of the verses, now some of them are asking to learn it in Coptic. I think this approach is better. Teach them what they understand and then they will desire to go the extra mile since they see how beautiful and meaningful it is.
    (emphasis mine)

    Agreed.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg152068#msg152068 date=1329435312]
    It is possible to be connected to the Church in Egypt without being Egyptian. The Church of Estonia or Finland is part of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople but neither are Greek at all. Likewise the Church of Ethiopia until recently, and the British Orthodox and French Orthodox today. To be part of one of the major sees does not and has never required the adoption of that major sees culture as a necessity. The Greek community ib Italy was part of the Roman Church but did not use Latin.

    This isn't to say what should be done but one language and culture had never been required nor has it been the case in history. Quite the contrary.


    People, look:

    Our very own moderator is an Englishman, who has adopted Orthodoxy. Do you think Fr. Peter would have been Orthodox, and part of our Church, if we had absolutely NO English literature or translations?

    It bothers me deeply that we even have a British Orthodox Church, a Coptic Orthodox Church , and an Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy is beyond cultural boundaries. This is nonsense.

    So, let's say Fr. Peter prays the mass in English and does the vespers in English - is his salvation less than ours?? Should we teach him Coptic so we can "perfect" his salvation and that of his own parish?

    Do you realize that Fr. Peter & H.G Bishop Seraphim have brought more people to Orthodoxy than any of us??? We should be celebrating what we have in common with him and his parishioners, not stupidly underlying our differences - ESPECIALLY in ENGLAND!

    Why isn't the British Orthodox Church the ONLY Oriental Orthodox Church in the UK?? WHy?

    For example - If I'm a spanish Catholic person living in France, why on earth would I go to a Spanish Catholic Church in France for? I'm not even sure one exists. We are doing this. It looks awful. It feels awful just thinking about it.
    A spanish catholic and a french catholic have their catholic faith in common. Why are we even calling our Church the Coptic (EGYPTIAN) Orthodox Church when we are in the UK? Why shouldn't it also be the British Orthodox Church?
    Are we not also British!??

    This is what I meant when I said that you do not deserve your nationality. Do you have any idea how rude it is to be given a British passport, be allowed to come to the UK, and then use Arabic in a liturgy? You are telling me that the Egyptians in the UK are either too dumb to learn English and need to still speak ARabic, or they do not really care that they are now citizens of a NEW Country!! England is now your home.

    If you do not feel its your home, and you still love Egypt, GO BACK TO EGYPT!! WHat the heck are u doing in Europe? When you come to a country for the sake of only work and not really for the sake of the country, you naturally start to cause division.

    That's why I'm telling Opahdece that if he is that attached to Coptic and Arabic in the liturgy and Church services, then he ought to go back to Egypt - where it would be respected to speak those languages there.

    Do you realize the importance of sharing one's faith with others? There is more beauty in knowing that our faith transcends culture, it is beyond Egypt, it is beyond France or UK, it is a faith that we can share with everyone of all nationalities. This is MORE beautiful than the hymn agios athanatos nai-nan.

    The Commandment of Christ was to go and baptise people in the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit. It wasn't to go and teach them Coptic hymns.

    I was SO pro Coptic language ages ago. I thought the same way as you did, Opahdece, but this is wrong. Its not right.
  • Where then, Zoxsasi, would you put those migrants who cannot even speak English? Should they be denied Services in Their language of Choice. In My diocese (The Diocese of Sydney), Every Coptic church i know of has an English Liturgy in the weekly cycle of prayers. However whist there are some Migrants in the Church in the west I believe there Should be Arabic Liturgies for them also.

    Btw, there have been saints who couldnt communicate with those they prayed with at all, Such as a recent Ethiopian Monk who walked to Egypt to stay at St Anthony's Monastery. I cannot remember the name of this holy man, nor if he is officially a saint yet, but I remember reading his biography.

    Even if the Church spoke Absolutely no English there would still be converts, For the Church is the Truth and life.
  • If the Church spoke no English there would be very, very few converts in the West. The Bible and the Church and History are very clear indeed about the need for the Gospel and the worship of the Church to be generally comprehensible.

    That does not preclude liturgies in all manner of languages to support new immigrants, but that argument really emphasises why ordinarily the Church should operate in the language of the place where it is, otherwise we are essentially saying 'We must be prepared to serve the X,000 people who will come from the Motherland and so we worship in the language of the Motherland', rather than 'We must be prepared to serve the X0,000,000 who are in this new land and are not Orthodox and so we usually worship in the language of our new home'.

    It is not a matter of either/or, but if a person is able to operate as a Doctor, or Engineer, or Pharmacist in the West, then they are surely able to speak the language of their new home already to a high degree. If I was in France (I'll change it from Finland!), then even if occasionally, and in the midweek, I celebrated a liturgy in English for English ex-pats, ordinarily I would worship only in French, because I was in France. I would certainly not establish a French British Orthodox Church, or even a French British Coptic Orthodox Church. I would be Orthodox and in France.
  • Well, as I stated most Coptic Churches in Australia Pray in English, what happens elsewhere Is out of my control. And yes far less would convert in the West if the language was not in the language of the land. Its why I am in the Coptic Orthodox Mission in Australia, Mission is the centre of Who I am.
  • What I mean is, it bothers me that we have a Coptic Orthodox Church, an Ethiopian Orthodox, a Syrian Orthodox, an Armenian Orthodox and a British Orthodox Church in the UK.

    Why?

    Surely, if we are in the UK, then why not have just the British Orthodox Church, that is under or within the Patriarchate of Alexandria?

    In Canada, you ought to have the Canadian Orthodox Church etc. Calling it the Coptic Orthodox Church - you end up with an Egyptian Club in the UK.

    In fact, for your information, before we purchased stevenage, we wanted it as a monastery. Guess what the majority wanted it as?? A Coptic Club.

    They actually wanted a place where fellow Christians could go, speak arabic together and just socialize. I just want to go to Church on Sundays, enjoy the liturgy, and go home.
  • I think, as others have stated before that moderation and education are the key when dealing with Coptic in our prayers.

    Yes it is important that people understand the prayers. And indeed, nearly all of the Church's liturgies and prayers and hymns have been translated into English/the vernacular for each particular country (most certainly in English).

    But the other extreme of completely abolishing Coptic is absurd. Our Coptic chants and rites and traditions are deeply rooted in Orthodoxy and are a rich spiritual treasure.

    I completely agree with whoever (I think it was TimothyM) who said that as people progress and learn the prayers in English they themselves wish to learn the Coptic. Not because Coptic is superior to English as a language, but because the true beauty of the Church's rites and hymnology are only fully appreciated when prayed in the Coptic language.

    Our duty is then to ensure that when people seek to learn the Coptic, there is someone there to teach them.

  • [quote author=lankyknight1990 link=topic=12897.msg151732#msg151732 date=1329012660]
    I am a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church. the only reason for somebody to not know what is being said during the Divine Liturgy who has been raised in the Church is if they are being lazy and not paying attention. There are Liturgical Books That have Coptic/Arabic/English all next to each other, and if you know the structure of the divine liturgy you can follow what is being said, even if you do not speak the language. I recently went to an Arabic Mass being prayed bu HG Bishop Athanasius, It was majority Arabic. I do not understand any arabic at all, but It did not mean I couldn't follow what was being said.

    With that being said, as a convert to the church My identity is the English language, and I prefer to pray solely in English. However to say that the reason youth don't like the church is because it is in coptic is utterly false, as many youth, Such as my weak self and others, who have never come into contact with the Orthodox church are Choosing to become Coptic Orthodox, DESPITE the fact of the language barriers. It comes down to this. The Coptic language is the Heritage of our Church, whether we are Egyptians in Nationality or race, or perhaps Westerners in my case. It was the Language of the Desert fathers, and is kept alive through the traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church. The same could be said about english. Some of the Newer Migrants cannot speak English, does that mean we are being unfair for praying in English, Not Arabic?

    One thing I personally love about the Coptic Lines in the Liturgy is I can go to any church in the world, Whether Egypt, Australia, USA, Canada, Europe, Pakistan, Asia ect. And I can understand those lines, even if I cannot understand anything else. The Coptic Language is something that unites all Coptic Orthodox Men and Women around the world.

    Also some Tunes and Lines are IMPOSSIBLE to chant successfully in English due to the Translation having too many words that don't fit the tune. However as I stated I prefer English Liturgies, and I go to a Church that prays Solely in English, with a little bit of Coptic For the Lines of the Priest such as "Irini Pasi".


    I agree. I like what you had to say. God bless you.
  • i also did not grow up speaking arabic or coptic, and although i love these languages (certainly i love them much more than i speak them!), i don't think it's right to expect my friends to love them as much as i do.
    i would like to ask lanyknight1990, what was / is yr background? were u Christian before u became orthodox?
    what do people say when u say u r orthodox?
    (u can answer me by personal message if u don't want to distract from the topic of the conversation).
    i usually get a funny look from west europeans people and most asians, and an understanding nod from north and east africans.
    maybe i should start a thread about 'funny comments i have had about my faith and how to deal with them'. (or someone else could start it if they find it interesting)
  • [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=12897.msg152145#msg152145 date=1329507457]
    i also did not grow up speaking arabic or coptic, and although i love these languages (certainly i love them much more than i speak them!), i don't think it's right to expect my friends to love them as much as i do.
    i would like to ask lanyknight1990, what was / is yr background? were u Christian before u became orthodox?
    what do people say when u say u r orthodox?
    (u can answer me by personal message if u don't want to distract from the topic of the conversation).
    i usually get a funny look from west europeans people and most asians, and an understanding nod from north and east africans.
    maybe i should start a thread about 'funny comments i have had about my faith and how to deal with them'. (or someone else could start it if they find it interesting)


    This interests me too. Let's create a thread and leave the discussion here as is.
  • [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=12897.msg152145#msg152145 date=1329507457]
    i also did not grow up speaking arabic or coptic, and although i love these languages (certainly i love them much more than i speak them!), i don't think it's right to expect my friends to love them as much as i do.
    i would like to ask lanyknight1990, what was / is yr background? were u Christian before u became orthodox?
    what do people say when u say u r orthodox?
    (u can answer me by personal message if u don't want to distract from the topic of the conversation).
    i usually get a funny look from west europeans people and most asians, and an understanding nod from north and east africans.
    maybe i should start a thread about 'funny comments i have had about my faith and how to deal with them'. (or someone else could start it if they find it interesting)


    My Family is of British Descent, living in Australia. I was raised Pentecostal/New-Age Protestant.
  • [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=12897.msg152145#msg152145 date=1329507457]
    i also did not grow up speaking arabic or coptic, and although i love these languages (certainly i love them much more than i speak them!), i don't think it's right to expect my friends to love them as much as i do.
    i would like to ask lanyknight1990, what was / is yr background? were u Christian before u became orthodox?
    what do people say when u say u r orthodox?
    (u can answer me by personal message if u don't want to distract from the topic of the conversation).
    i usually get a funny look from west europeans people and most asians, and an understanding nod from north and east africans.
    maybe i should start a thread about 'funny comments i have had about my faith and how to deal with them'. (or someone else could start it if they find it interesting)


    GO FOR IT! We can use some humor after all of those... debates. lol
  • [quote author=lankyknight1990 link=topic=12897.msg152157#msg152157 date=1329526456]
    [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=12897.msg152145#msg152145 date=1329507457]
    i also did not grow up speaking arabic or coptic, and although i love these languages (certainly i love them much more than i speak them!), i don't think it's right to expect my friends to love them as much as i do.
    i would like to ask lanyknight1990, what was / is yr background? were u Christian before u became orthodox?
    what do people say when u say u r orthodox?
    (u can answer me by personal message if u don't want to distract from the topic of the conversation).
    i usually get a funny look from west europeans people and most asians, and an understanding nod from north and east africans.
    maybe i should start a thread about 'funny comments i have had about my faith and how to deal with them'. (or someone else could start it if they find it interesting)


    My Family is of British Descent, living in Australia. I was raised Pentecostal/New-Age Protestant.


    Also some of my pentecostal friends believed I got a "demon", Others believe I stopped believing in Relationship with God, Others believe I worship st mary, others believe I am just another type of Christian. Depends who you ask really. Alot think im now greek, as most have never heard of the Oriental orthodox Church.
  • What I mean is, it bothers me that we have a Coptic Orthodox Church, an Ethiopian Orthodox, a Syrian Orthodox, an Armenian Orthodox and a British Orthodox Church in the UK.

    Why?

    Because each Church you mentioned has its own rites and liturgical prayers.
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