When can we start to sing Kiahk Hymns?

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
When we actually start to sing Tasbehat Kiahk (in other words...the Evening Vespers Praise of Kiahk...not the Vigil itself)? I am confused about this because I know it is called "Kiahk Praise"...but the Advent fast starts before the month of Kiahk commences...so do we change the tune right when we start fasting or do we wait for Kiahk to begin first? More specifically, I am asking about this coming Saturday (Nov 26th) which is the first saturday of the fast but as far as I know Kiahk doesn't start until the following Tuesday I think.

thanks
«1

Comments

  • I think you start singing the Kiahk hymns when the month actually starts..Someone correct me if im wrong, but as far as i remember, you start it when kiahk starts (which i can't wait for) :)
  • Kiahk hymns (in fact the entire rite of the Advent) begin only on the coptic month of Kiahk. What many in the first week of the fast (that is not part of kiahk) is only say the ending of the Advent fast in Amen alleluia (pimisi evol khen efiot, khaga-o eni-e-on tero).
  • aww maan, lol, I was hoping to do Tasbehat Asheyat Kiahk  this saturday :) I guess I'm gonna have to wait until the next week.

    As for the psalmody of evening vespers in Kiahk, do we say all 9 of the Theotokias etc or are they divided, some in each week?
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12592.msg147884#msg147884 date=1322006161]
    As for the psalmody of evening vespers in Kiahk, do we say all 9 of the Theotokias etc or are they divided, some in each week?

    They are not theotokias--that is a mis understanding. there is only one theotokia--the Saturday Theotokia that has 9 parts. in kiahk, for each one of those parts, there is tafaseer/interpretations added to expand on the meaning of the parts (each part accordingly). Six coptic ones: Roumi, Mo'aqab, behiri a and b, se'idi and masri. After those there are 6 hymns that were written by famous Kiahk hymns writers/arrangers (nozzam). all 12 are said in the same tune on after each part of the theotokia.....all together, 108 :-). There is a reason we begin the tasbeha around 3:30 or 4 pm.
  • In reply to your question:  during Kiahk.
  • It starts on December 11! I can't wait, i am counting the days. It's the best season of the year.
  • [quote author=geomike link=topic=12592.msg147889#msg147889 date=1322016205]
    It starts on December 11! I can't wait, i am counting the days. It's the best season of the year.
    same here. It's the only thing getting me through the rest of this semester! :)
  • If the conclusion canon hymn (pimisi evol khen eviot) is not supposed to be said till Kiahk 1, then the Advent fasting during Hatoor has not hymn or rite changes. Is it not strange that Advent fasting during the month of Hatoor (from November 26-December 10) does not include any hymn changes? All other fasts in our church accompany a change in hymns. Even the annual Wednesday and Friday fasts include changes in the hymns (Al Je evmevi, Tishori). That doesn't mean there must be a hymn or rite change for a fast, but why is half of the Advent fast the exception to this practice?
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg147908#msg147908 date=1322062330]
    If the conclusion canon hymn (pimisi evol khen eviot) is not supposed to be said till Kiahk 1, then the Advent fasting during Hatoor has not hymn or rite changes. Is it not strange that Advent fasting during the month of Hatoor (from November 26-December 10) does not include any hymn changes? All other fasts in our church accompany a change in hymns. Even the annual Wednesday and Friday fasts include changes in the hymns (Al Je evmevi, Tishori). That doesn't mean there must be a hymn or rite change for a fast, but why is half of the Advent fast the exception to this practice?

    I should of been more specific. only the kiahk/advent rite and hymns begin on Kiahk ones. the changes for fasting days might apply here, but i am really not sure about that--i'll need to ask around.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg147886#msg147886 date=1322012351]
    [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12592.msg147884#msg147884 date=1322006161]
    As for the psalmody of evening vespers in Kiahk, do we say all 9 of the Theotokias etc or are they divided, some in each week?

    They are not theotokias--that is a mis understanding. there is only one theotokia--the Saturday Theotokia that has 9 parts. in kiahk, for each one of those parts, there is tafaseer/interpretations added to expand on the meaning of the parts (each part accordingly). Six coptic ones: Roumi, Mo'aqab, behiri a and b, se'idi and masri. After those there are 6 hymns that were written by famous Kiahk hymns writers/arrangers (nozzam). all 12 are said in the same tune on after each part of the theotokia.....all together, 108 :-). There is a reason we begin the tasbeha around 3:30 or 4 pm.

    Thanks a lot Mina that was really helpful and it makes sense that all 9 are part of one Theotokia just like on regular Saturday, except that Kiahk Theotokia is very long because of all the tafasir and extra arabic hymns. I was wondering how we would be expected to do Tasbehat Asheya in the usual 30 time allotment. Our asheya usually starts at 7:30pm so I guess if we start around 5:45 that should give us enough time. I have the huge Vespers Kiahk Praise Book from Dayr al Sorian and I can read Arabic (imperfectly) but it would be nice if we could get this book translated into English and French one day.
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12592.msg147912#msg147912 date=1322067476]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg147886#msg147886 date=1322012351]
    [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12592.msg147884#msg147884 date=1322006161]
    As for the psalmody of evening vespers in Kiahk, do we say all 9 of the Theotokias etc or are they divided, some in each week?

    They are not theotokias--that is a mis understanding. there is only one theotokia--the Saturday Theotokia that has 9 parts. in kiahk, for each one of those parts, there is tafaseer/interpretations added to expand on the meaning of the parts (each part accordingly). Six coptic ones: Roumi, Mo'aqab, behiri a and b, se'idi and masri. After those there are 6 hymns that were written by famous Kiahk hymns writers/arrangers (nozzam). all 12 are said in the same tune on after each part of the theotokia.....all together, 108 :-). There is a reason we begin the tasbeha around 3:30 or 4 pm.

    Thanks a lot Mina that was really helpful and it makes sense that all 9 are part of one Theotokia just like on regular Saturday, except that Kiahk Theotokia is very long because of all the tafasir and extra arabic hymns. I was wondering how we would be expected to do Tasbehat Asheya in the usual 30 time allotment. Our asheya usually starts at 7:30pm so I guess if we start around 5:45 that should give us enough time. I have the huge Vespers Kiahk Praise Book from Dayr al Sorian and I can read Arabic (imperfectly) but it would be nice if we could get this book translated into English and French one day.

    I have one in english........maybe printed by next year.
  • Hi Guys
    Quick question, does 7 &4 Tasbeha praises start on Sat 3rd Dec or Sat 10th Dec?

    The reason I'm asking is because if it starts on Sat 10th Dec then the dates of the tasbeha are:
    10th, 17th, 24th and 31st - Now 31st Dec is the new year eve so there's usually special service at church for that followed by a midnight liturgy. So what happen will happen for that night? Will 7 & 4 tasbeha praises be shortened to accommodate the New Year's eve service?
  • Will start on the 10th.. there's no retrospective compensation for the new year's eve
    Oujai
  • There MUST be four 7&4 nights done. New years celebrations means nothing compared to the this rite. Also not all churches have special services  for that night.....
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg147975#msg147975 date=1322178085]
    There MUST be four 7&4 nights done. New years celebrations means nothing compared to the this rite. Also not all churches have special services  for that night.....

    Funny you should mention this: My church decided one year to skip 7&4 due to New Years celebrations. I was quite angry and disapproving so I spoke to the priests who told me that I was too conservative and that I was scaring people away from church. Apparently, people want to have a church dinner party and random choirs rather then a church praising service. So I backed off. I wouldn't want to "scare" anyone away from God.

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12592.msg147982#msg147982 date=1322204924]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg147975#msg147975 date=1322178085]
    There MUST be four 7&4 nights done. New years celebrations means nothing compared to the this rite. Also not all churches have special services  for that night.....

    Funny you should mention this: My church decided one year to skip 7&4 due to New Years celebrations. I was quite angry and disapproving so I spoke to the priests who told me that I was too conservative and that I was scaring people away from church. Apparently, people want to have a church dinner party and random choirs rather then a church praising service. So I backed off. I wouldn't want to "scare" anyone away from God.

    ReturnOrthodoxy


    Wow! This is what happens when we do things (pray Kiahk Tasbeha) without understanding. .
  • [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12592.msg147982#msg147982 date=1322204924]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg147975#msg147975 date=1322178085]
    There MUST be four 7&4 nights done. New years celebrations means nothing compared to the this rite. Also not all churches have special services  for that night.....

    Funny you should mention this: My church decided one year to skip 7&4 due to New Years celebrations. I was quite angry and disapproving so I spoke to the priests who told me that I was too conservative and that I was scaring people away from church. Apparently, people want to have a church dinner party and random choirs rather then a church praising service. So I backed off. I wouldn't want to "scare" anyone away from God.

    ReturnOrthodoxy

    so wait....your New Years celebration is not done in church?!
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg148009#msg148009 date=1322267257]
    [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12592.msg147982#msg147982 date=1322204924]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg147975#msg147975 date=1322178085]
    There MUST be four 7&4 nights done. New years celebrations means nothing compared to the this rite. Also not all churches have special services  for that night.....

    Funny you should mention this: My church decided one year to skip 7&4 due to New Years celebrations. I was quite angry and disapproving so I spoke to the priests who told me that I was too conservative and that I was scaring people away from church. Apparently, people want to have a church dinner party and random choirs rather then a church praising service. So I backed off. I wouldn't want to "scare" anyone away from God.

    ReturnOrthodoxy

    so wait....your New Years celebration is not done in church?!


    No, (ReturnOrthodoxy and I are from the same parish)...we do do it in the church, but we also have a dinner for the youth in the hall often with modern (protestant) music. While I'm all for the dinner, they still shouldn't have skipped Kiahk.
  • Mina,
    So the only thing Kiahky said from the Start of the fast until Hatoor 30 is The ending for Amen Alleluia (Pimici Evol...)?

    Also, why must there be four 7&4's?

    Finally, Why is it that the Saturday Tasbeha has the additions?
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12592.msg148032#msg148032 date=1322426720]
    So the only thing Kiahky said from the Start of the fast until Hatoor 30 is The ending for Amen Alleluia (Pimici Evol...)?


    Also, why must there be four 7&4's?

    those are the rites of the Church...i don't know the symbolism.


    Finally, Why is it that the Saturday Tasbeha has the additions?

    hmmm...i don't know!!! this is also part of the rite that is written in books. might as well ask, why is there a 7 & 4.

    the thing is that the vespers tasbhea is not prayed by much people. they don't know about it, they don't care and they don't give much attention to it. so with any minor or major changes like what happens in kiahk, not much attention is given.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg147908#msg147908 date=1322062330]
    If the conclusion canon hymn (pimisi evol khen eviot) is not supposed to be said till Kiahk 1, then the Advent fasting during Hatoor has not hymn or rite changes. Is it not strange that Advent fasting during the month of Hatoor (from November 26-December 10) does not include any hymn changes? All other fasts in our church accompany a change in hymns. Even the annual Wednesday and Friday fasts include changes in the hymns (Al Je evmevi, Tishori). That doesn't mean there must be a hymn or rite change for a fast, but why is half of the Advent fast the exception to this practice?


    There are no special rites for Advent fasting like those of the Great Lent. It is just the melody and the extra praises.

    The canon for the Advent is prayed beginning on Hatur 15 as well as the Advent fraction.

    The Kiahk tune does not start till the month of kiahk.

    Hope this helps
  • Taishoria or dishoria during advent fasting?
    Oujai
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12592.msg148032#msg148032 date=1322426720]
    Finally, Why is it that the Saturday Tasbeha has the additions?


    The reason that it is Saturday that has the additions is a disputed reason. The reason that I have heard, and am myself most comfortable with is; that it originated that they were done every day, but for reasons of practicality, it was all shifted to the Sunday Midnight Praise. If you look at the praise of Sunday, there are many different "Psalis" and "Lobshes" that belong to different days. For example, the famous praise, "The Burning Bush" is a Psali from Wednesday. SO it would seemt hat they used to be done on different days.

    I am sure that there will be disagreements with me on this, and I am more then happy to hear other's response. I may be wrong, and I will try to look for sources to back me up.

    Please Pray for me
    -ReturnOrthodoxy
  • Well......not that i disagree ....but i just think that whoever gave that opinion doesn't really know the structure of the roumi and the mou'aqab parts that are said on the saturday tasbeha.

    [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12592.msg148043#msg148043 date=1322438038]
    The reason that it is Saturday that has the additions is a disputed reason. The reason that I have heard, and am myself most comfortable with is; that it originated that they were done every day, but for reasons of practicality, it was all shifted to the Sunday Midnight Praise. If you look at the praise of Sunday, there are many different "Psalis" and "Lobshes" that belong to different days. For example, the famous praise, "The Burning Bush" is a Psali from Wednesday. SO it would seemt hat they used to be done on different days.

    We do know that midnight tasbeha were done separately every day, each with it's madayeh, psalies, lobshes and commentaries. Than 7 & 4 just put all those together. But when we speak about Saturday, we are looking at the vespers praise and not the midnight. in that praise, when it is done in any day, Niethnos tero is said, then the 4th hoos, then one of the psalies of the day and then the theotokia and the conclusion. The Saturday Tasbeha is unique; it's more specific to Saint Mary and that can be seen from the refrain "hail to you o full of grace..." which is different than all the other days theotokias refrains (which is always about the Son). The roumi and the mu'qab parts are too attached to the saturday theotokia that it doesn't make sense for them to be said in other days in verspers praise.
  • [quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=12592.msg148043#msg148043 date=1322438038]
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12592.msg148032#msg148032 date=1322426720]
    Finally, Why is it that the Saturday Tasbeha has the additions?

    If you look at the praise of Sunday, there are many different "Psalis" and "Lobshes" that belong to different days. For example, the famous praise, "The Burning Bush" is a Psali from Wednesday. SO it would seemt hat they used to be done on different days.


    So why do we sing everything throughout the week on Sunday? Does that mean you have to sing them all if you have a tasbeha during the week such as a Friday?
  • The structure of the kiahk midnight praise of any day is the same as the annual days with these changes:
    - The tunes
    - Psalies that are added to hymns (psalies on each hoos, on doxologies, commemoration, theotokis)
    - Arabic Psalies (basically arabic madayeh but adapt the structure of an psali--being arranged on the alphabet)
    - Madayeh (arabic madayeh said after hymns)
    - Arabic Theotokia (madayeh said after or before theotokia)
    - Lobshes (best example are lobshes after the 1st and 2nd hoos and in kiahk there are a lot more)
    - Commentaries (may be between hymns and not only just before the theotokia conclusion)

    For the 7 & 4 (sab'a wa arba'a), all of these were combined into one long all-nighter tasbeha. So you'd be say the Seven Theotokias (Sab'aa)--with their psalies, madayeh, lobshes and commentaries (or atleast one of each)...........and the Four Hooses (arba'a) also with their psalies....etc. So the famous hymns we hear about are the ones that people choose and kepyt repeating. Al-oleqa is a hymn that is a hymn said on the Wed Theotkia (actually maybe thurs--I havn't looked at the kiahk psalmody for a while). Qall elrabe le-mosa is a hymn said on the first hoos that can be said everyday.

    In Texas monastery, considering that I always visit during kiahk, during the week we do the same annual tasbeha with the change in tunes, alternation between hoos erof elkebera and tenen, and than a kiahk psali of the day, a kiahk madeha of the day, and the theotokia. 
  • I can't remember where I read this, but basically a number of these melodies and hymns were composed when Copts were severely persecuted and would hide all day and all night in underground hideouts, and they used to spend days and nights singing and praying, i.e. not only Saturdays.. can't remember which era either...
    Taishoria or dishoria on Sundays?
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12592.msg148076#msg148076 date=1322513945]
    I can't remember where I read this, but basically a number of these melodies and hymns were composed when Copts were severely persecuted and would hide all day and all night in underground hideouts, and they used to spend days and nights singing and praying, i.e. not only Saturdays.. can't remember which era either...

    Well praise in general is multiplied much during that month simply for setting up our souls to accept the Son's Birth on earth. I know George doesn't like the arabic madayeh in the kiahk psalmodies cuz their were all additions to the original kiahk psalmody published by Kladious Bek (if I am not mistake). But to me, i really don't mind having more madayeh within the appropriate limits of the rites, dogma and faith of the Church.

    Taishoria or dishoria on Sundays?
    Oujai


    I forgot what we do. maybe imikhail can enlighten us with some sources. I do remember thoo that when i once prayed a liturgy with abouna on a thursday during kiahk, he told me to say tai shory and not tee shory considering that is the ADVENT FAST.
  • Where can I get the full Kiahk Midnight Praise Book (7&4)? I have the vespers praise one from the Sorian monastery and it is huge so I can't imagine how much bigger the Midnight Praise book would be!
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12592.msg148079#msg148079 date=1322517051]
    Where can I get the full Kiahk Midnight Praise Book (7&4)? I have the vespers praise one from the Sorian monastery and it is huge so I can't imagine how much bigger the Midnight Praise book would be!

    that book is not only for vespers praise. it is for both. vespers praise is only a small portion of that huge book.
Sign In or Register to comment.