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  • No they don't. They belong to the universal, catholic Church, since we find them in all churches. And even if they are Greek but found in the Coptic church, why should we get rid of them? They are not foreign. They are Coptic. Period.

    First they are Greek not Coptic

    Second they have the Byzantine music and not the Coptic

    Third they were introduced to the Coptic Church as part of the unification movement in the 19th century

    Fourth they do not belong to the universal Catholic Church since they only exist within the Byzantine Church.
  • The following hymns were added recently in the Coptic Church and were not part of the Coptic Heritage:

    Ton Seena
    Tolithos
    Eparthenos



    They were added in the late 19th century during the papacy of Cyril the 4th.
  • It's obvious that you are not listening to a thing I am saying. This is a waste of time. If you want to believe the Coptic Church is immune from bilingualism and everything that is not Coptic is bad and must be removed, go ahead. There's nothing I can say to show you how unintelligent this argument is. I said in the beginning I am anti-scholarly and anti-intelligent, not anti-Coptic.
  • anti-scholarly

    What is anti scholarly in what I said.

    First we have to agree on facts to have any fruitful discussion.

    Do you agree or not with my last post?

    everything that is not Coptic is bad and must be removed

    I never said this .. read my posts again.
  • The following hymns were added recently in the Coptic Church and were not part of the Coptic Heritage:

    Ton Seena
    Tolithos
    Eparthenos



    They were added in the late 19th century during the papacy of Cyril the 4th.
  • Dear Remenkimi,
    Well, disputing things on this forum at least for me is a way of forming relationships with others. It is not a lifeless board with members not giving respect to one another, or only expressing their opinions just for the sake of it. Hence, I'm disappointed in you. You revisit our debate on coptichymns.net; you then said scientifically Coptic is not a dead language agreeing with my statement, and I therefore replied "thank you".
    DEar Cephas,
    Coptic is used as a language of communication to this very day within some families and churches in Germany, and areas in southern Egypt.
    Oujai
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    Ophadece,

    The fact that you and a handful of other Copts scattered across the world can speak Coptic does not make it any less of a dead language. I have defined what a dead language is, as has Remnkemi. Accept it. You said scientists say otherwise. Prove it.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140683#msg140683 date=1309596587]
    Dear Remenkimi,
    Well, disputing things on this forum at least for me is a way of forming relationships with others. It is not a lifeless board with members not giving respect to one another, or only expressing their opinions just for the sake of it. Hence, I'm disappointed in you. You revisit our debate on coptichymns.net; you then said scientifically Coptic is not a dead language agreeing with my statement, and I therefore replied "thank you".
    DEar Cephas,
    Coptic is used as a language of communication to this very day within some families and churches in Germany, and areas in southern Egypt.
    Oujai


    Ophadece, I like discussing things on this forum also as a way to learn from others. However, when the same argument keeps coming back, even after I have responded, it becomes evident that the discussion is fruitless.

    In all honesty, I don't remember our debate on coptichymns.net. I may have been using a different definition of dead languages. Even within the scientific community, some will only consider a language dead if there are no living speakers. Some will consider a language dead when it has been superceded by a daughter language (like Latin into Romance languages). Some will consider a language dead when it is not used in daily conversation. Compared to many officially dead languages, like the Native American languages, Coptic is not at that level. So I might have said it wasn't a dead language by comparison. However, looking at the definitions throughout linguistic models, a language is considered dead if there is such a small number of people who can only "remember their previous proficiency, like when my grandmother told me she used to teach English and now she doesn't remember any English word. This would be the case for Coptic. As a community, we remember how Coptic was used through manuscript evidence and religious services. But we can't talk or communicate ideas in Coptic, at least without fighting about fundamental rules. Hence, we can't say Coptic is a living language. Maybe this observation is only accurate where I live and maybe Coptic is flourishing in some parts. But I don't think this will make Coptic rise to the level of a "living" language.
  • I think we may need to have another thread of what constitute a dead language and keep this thread focused on the Greek hymns that recently crept into our Church and they still do.

    The following hymns were added recently in the Coptic Church and were not part of the Coptic Heritage:

    Ton Seena
    Tolithos
    Eparthenos


    They were added in the late 19th century during the papacy of Cyril the 4th.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11736.msg140694#msg140694 date=1309618591]
    I think we may need to have another thread of what constitute a dead language and keep this thread focused on the Greek hymns that recently crept into our Church and they still do.

    The following hymns were added recently in the Coptic Church and were not part of the Coptic Heritage:

    Ton Seena
    Tolithos
    Eparthenos


    They were officially added in the late 19th century during the papacy of Cyril the 4th. However, given their popularity in the Greek, Russian, Syrian, Indian Churches for over a thousand years, it is highly likely that these hymns were already found in Egypt before the 19th century because Egypt was a heavily Hellenistic culture that operated this way for thousands of years.



    There. Like Cephas, I fixed your argument.

    I reiterate what I wrote 2 posts ago: "It becomes evident that this discussion is fruitless when the same argument keeps coming back after I have responded."
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    I think we may need to have another thread of what constitute a dead language and keep this thread focused on the Greek hymns that recently crept into our Church and they still do

    No need to. It's a dead language regardless of personal opinion. There is no need to discuss it.
  • Dear Cephas, and Remenkimi,
    Coptic language is not a dead language. God bless you both...
    Oujai
  • it is highly likely that these hymns were already found in Egypt before the 19th century because Egypt was a heavily Hellenistic culture that operated this way for thousands of years

    That is not true.

    It was M. Takla who introduced them in the late 19th century. They were not known in the Coptic Church liturgical prayers.


  • "It becomes evident that this discussion is fruitless when the same argument keeps coming back after I have responded."

    Dear Reminkimi

    I believe the difference between you and me is that I present facts. You present opinions.

    To get anywhere, we must stick to facts.

    One fact:

    The following hymns were added recently in the Coptic Church and were not part of the Coptic Heritage:

    Ton Seena
    Tolithos
    Eparthenos


    They were officially added in the late 19th century during the papacy of Cyril the 4th.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140719#msg140719 date=1309639480]
    Dear Cephas, and Remenkimi,
    Coptic language is not a dead language. God bless you both...
    Oujai



    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    The Transition from Coptic to Arabic by Samuel Rubenson

    Read it and weep.

    PS. I seem to recall you claiming that 'scientists' say that Coptic is not dead. Care to back that up with references?
  • Thanks Cephas for the reference.

    I hope Reminkimi reads and understand that Copts have their own heritage that is different than the Byzantine.

    I still stand by the fact

    [B]The following hymns were added recently in the Coptic Church and were not part of the Coptic Heritage:

    Ton Seena Tolithos Eparthenos

    They were officially added in the late 19th century during the papacy of Cyril the 4th.
  • DEar Cephas,
    I'm not a scientist, and I don't have scientific material as you may do, but unlike many of you, I lived in Egypt till I was almost 28. I saw people speak Coptic, and I heard about others who did, as in not having lost it in the first place, and later revived it. It wasn't this way. I didn't read your article yet, but I will, appraise it, and answer you, but just don't desire to know everything scientifically, because even sciences contradict each other, and specially when it comes to research. Please also refrain from making insulting references on the forum...
    Oujai
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140654#msg140654 date=1309552213]
    Dear Cephas,
    According to scientists Coptic language is not a dead language.
    Oujai



    You are the one that brought up 'scientists' not me. Back up your claim.

    Once again, because a handful of people can speak a language does not make it any less dead. Once again, I provide you the definition:

    Normally the transition from a dead to an extinct language occurs when a language undergoes language death while being directly replaced by a different one. For example, Native American languages were replaced by English, French, Portuguese, or Spanish as a result of colonization. The Coptic language, replaced by Arabic in its native Egypt, was once thought to be extinct.

    Language extinction may also occur when a language evolves into a new language or family of languages. An example of this was Old English, a forerunner of Modern English.

    By contrast to an extinct language which no longer has any speakers, a dead language may remain in use for scientific, legal, or ecclesiastical functions. Old Church Slavonic, Avestan, Coptic, Biblical Hebrew, Ge'ez, Latin, and Sanskrit are among the many dead languages used as sacred languages.

    Alternatively, a language is said to be extinct if, although it is known to have been spoken by people in the past, modern scholarship cannot reconstruct it to the point that it is possible to write in it or translate into it with confidence (say, a simple dialogue or a short tale written in a modern language); whereas a language is referred to as dead, but not extinct, if it is sufficiently known at present to permit such routine use, even though it has no modern speakers. By these definitions Proto-Indo-European (of which only conjectural reconstructions of lexicon and grammar exist) is an extinct language, and Classical Latin and Old Tupi are dead, but not extinct languages.

    A language that has living native speakers is called a modern language. Ethnologue records 6,912 living languages known.[3]

    Hebrew is an example of a nearly extinct spoken language (by the first definition above) that became a lingua franca and a liturgical language that has been revived to become a living spoken language. There are other attempts at language revival. For example, young school children use Sanskrit in revived language in Mathoor village (India).[4] In general, the success of these attempts has been subject to debate, as it is not clear they will ever become the common native language of a community of speakers.

    It is believed that 90% of the circa 7,000 languages currently spoken in the world will have become extinct by 2050, as the world's language system has reached a crisis and is dramatically restructuring.[5][6]

    Definition of dead language according to Cambridge Dictionaries Online:

    a language which is no longer spoken by anyone as their main language

    Definition of dead language according to the Free Dictionary:

    A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community.

  • Dear Cephas,
    Thanks very much. First of all, I brought the issue of sciences basing my argument on a debate I had with Remenkimi on Coptichymns.net, where he pointed out that fact, ie scientifically Coptic is not a dead language.
    As for all the definitions you gave, only proves to me that Coptic is NOT a dead language. There are native speakers to this very day...
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • Still on my mobile, so will read the article later still
    Oujai
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140758#msg140758 date=1309677613]
    Dear Cephas,
    Thanks very much. First of all, I brought the issue of sciences basing my argument on a debate I had with Remenkimi on Coptichymns.net, where he pointed out that fact, ie scientifically Coptic is not a dead language.
    As for all the definitions you gave, only proves to me that Coptic is NOT a dead language. There are native speakers to this very day...
    Oujai khan ebshois



    I fear that your grasp of the English language is not as sharp as your grasp of the Coptic one. Nevertheless, if you wish to believe a lie, you are welcome to it. There are still people, to this day, that believe the Earth is flat and that we live in a geocentric solar system. They are still wrong, yet are so wrapped up in their delusions that they are convinced they are right, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. No matter. You are certainly welcome to your thoughts, no matter how incorrect (when faced with evidence) they may be. Hopefully, the article will help shed a bit more light on the subject (though I sincerely doubt it will change your mind).
  • Thanks Cephas for your brotherly advice.
    Oujai
  • Though the Coptic language may be dead, we as Copts can revive it. We are no less of a people than the Armeans, the Syrians, the Jewish, and others who were able to preserve and revive their heritage.

    The road is long and the work is not easy, but if each of us dedicate 5 minutes a day to learn a new word or a new phrase, we will get there.


    Speak Coptic with us at

    www.speakcoptic.org
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    You are most welcome. I do genuinely hope you will read the article and keep an open mind.
  • Dear Cephas,
    Thanks very much for the brotherly advice again and again. You certainly don't toil with people like me, do you? The article you provided contains many flaws, and in all honesty wasn't worth me wasting my time on. The guy clearly uses his wit as a deductive power, but he is not talking proper history. Yes he has references from many Egyptian as well as foreign historians, but at best they don't explain their findings except by conclusions. I would rather they presented facts for the reader to insinuate the conclusions from. Unfortunately there is absence of any recorded material from people speaking Coptic in the 1960's and 1970's when Emil Maher (now Fr. Shenouda) according to him has found and based his studies on. Also, the remark Mr. Rubenson makes, that there are no Coptic scientists or writers after the tenth century is completely and utterly flawed. I would suggest if you can contact him/her now, they may have found out the flaws in their argument anyway.
    Dear imikhail,
    Coptic language needs revival as was the case with Hebrew. That does NOT mean that it was dead, but it needs to be revived on a major scale.
    Oujai
  • I agree with you ophadece,

    Most Copts do not care much for the language as they are bombarded by the Islamic media machine and the Islamic school system.

    Also, those who may know anything of the language, they are deceived by the changes Arian WEfendi introduced. I honestly believe that if we turn our attention to the OB we will be able to revive the language as their are numerous words we use, in the Egyptian slang, on a daily basis. Here are examples:

    Ward => flower
    Taf => Spit
    Tawi => hide, kill
    daldel =>
    temsa7 = crocodile
    naf => blow the nose
    barbour = snot
    sameet => type of flour
    karkar = laugh hard



  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    I can't say that your response comes as any surprise to me. However, where the author of the article at least makes references, you are oddly silent in providing any. Your argument essentially boils down to someone merely blocking their ears, closing their eyes and screaming 'LALALALA I YOU'RE WRONG!!! LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!' at the top of their lungs. If you have any evidence, any scholarly articles, any books to back up your claims, by all means present them. I would love to see Coptic make a comeback. As it stands now, however, it is dead. Tragic, but true. Hopefully there will be a strong revival.
  • Dear Cephas,
    You know something? If I had any scholarly material, or scientific articles, I wouldn't have left it that late. And yes, I totally agree with you in acting like a stubborn child (to put it nicely for fear of ridiculing myself (leaving that job to yourself if you like)) and saying "I CAN'T HEAR YOU... I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Look my dear brother in Christ, you don't want to listen to facts that are not written in books. You haven't lived in Egypt but I have. Please provide me with any links that say French is not a dead language, can you? Provide me with any links that say Gallic and Welsh are not dead languages, can you? It is exactly the same thing. Many people can write their opinions on paper, and they call Coptic language as dead, but even the greatest of Coptologists such as Crum, and Worrell admitted that their studies are deficient, being foreign to Egypt, and they have seldom (if at all) went to places like the cul-de-sacs of Southern Egypt. Don't worry about my opinion, and don't put yourself out more than you should... I AM NOT GETTING IT.
    Dear imikhail,
    You are very right, but people like the fashionable style, and the foreign-sounding Greco-Bohairic even at the expense of the authentic language. In fact simple words that every body even in the diaspora still uses proves it is a flaw based on a flawed argument. Examples like "kaman" (= also) [spelling as kemen in Coptic], "eddeeny" (= give me) [spelling as di nei in Coptic], and "keda" (= like so) [spelling as kai de] - rather than kemen, tineei, and kethei !!!
    Oujai
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    Dear 'brother',

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]
    Dear Cephas,
    If I had any scholarly material, or scientific articles, I wouldn't have left it that late. And yes, I totally agree with you in acting like a stubborn child (to put it nicely for fear of ridiculing myself (leaving that job to yourself if you like)) and saying "I CAN'T HEAR YOU... I CAN'T HEAR YOU".


    Okie dokie.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]

    Look my dear brother in Christ, you don't want to listen to facts that are not written in books.


    What facts?


    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]

    You haven't lived in Egypt but I have.


    How do you know?

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]

    Please provide me with any links that say French is not a dead language, can you? Provide me with any links that say Gallic and Welsh are not dead languages, can you? It is exactly the same thing.


    :D I'll just let this speak for itself.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]

    Many people can write their opinions on paper,


    Or on Internet forums.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]

    Don't worry about my opinion, and don't put yourself out more than you should...


    Don't worry, I don't.


    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140774#msg140774 date=1309719013]

    I AM NOT GETTING IT.


    Clearly.
  • That is really good Cephas. Unfortunately there is no "like" button on tasbeha.org, otherwise I would have pressed it on your post. Yeah, I might have been wrong, but you didn't sound like you lived in Egypt before... sorry if I was mistaken...
    Oujai
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