Standard Agpeya?

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
I've been struggling for the past little while with which agpeya to read because I want to learn them by heart...as a kid the teachers made us learn the only english one available at our church which was a translation with lots of thee's and thou's. I have a version which is one side in Arabic one side in English from Al-Mahabba Bookstore (the same one used by the St. Anthony monastery recordings for the Agpeya) but the translation seems as if it comes from the Arabic! I also have 2 other versions which uses NIV and NKJ..does anyone know if there is an innitiative to standardise the agpeya at all??

Comments

  • The Southern Diocese under the auspice of Bishop Youssef is working on the Ajbeya but do not expect it until couple of years.
  • i also think you are missing the main reason we have different agpeyas, and that is the translations of the litanies, the absolutions and the rest of the prayers. the bible text is not a problem in my opinion--they are all published version that you can choose from to follow.


    (imikhail, call thing reminding me of the book being called adjpeya and not agpeya.....havn't heard that since i came to the states)
  • adjbeya is the sudanese pronunciation.
    we have lots of people in uk who say it like this  :)

    and i like the version without the old english, mine is from connecticut, usa, given by a friend who i think got it in ireland.
    which reminds me to go and use it...
  • Lol! I prefer proper old English. What I can't stand is bad English. I wish people translating into English would get the help of those who are native English speakers, even native US English speakers at a push. This is happening more now but lots of early books are just too badly translated to use.
  • you weren't supposed to see that post!  ;)
    shh, don't tell father peter i hate old english...
  • It's bad English I have problems with.
  • Ajbeya is the proper Coptic Bohairic pronunciation which comes from ajb=hour.  WAIT I will not allow this to to turn into another debate of Greco versus Bohairic :)
  • Christ is risen!

    .....so lets return to talking about translations of the Agbeya,Agpaya or whatever (I believe its hard to discriminate the b and p sounds in Arabic).

    Can I put a 'bid' in for the 'Agpia' published by C.O.P.T. in Australia and used in English services in London. It uses the NKJ version of the scriptures which has the same rhythm as the old King James but its comprehensible as well as dignified. I don't know who translated the other prayers but they are lovely (in my opinion, of course).
  • Peace be unto you brothers and sisters in Christ.

    I recently ordered an English translation of the Agpeya from St. Antonious Coptic Orthodox Church of the San Fransisco Bay Area (2nd Edition, 1999). This version is edited by Fr. Matthias Farid Wahba. This version is based on the Coptic, rather than Arabic or Greek.

    From the Preface:

    In your hands is The Agpeya, The Book of Hours, according to the Coptic version. It is known that the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament, is the closest version of the Psalms to the Coptic, but the difference between the versions makes this book unique, It reflects the same understanding and meaning of the Psalms and prayers, as used by our Coptic fathers. Thus it bears the particular flavor of the Coptic language. It expresses successfully the unique spirituality of the Coptic Church.

    Here is a link for those who are interested:
    http://www.orthodoxbookstore.org/theagpeya-thecopticbookofhours.aspx

    Antonious
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11364.msg137074#msg137074 date=1304327997]
    Lol! I prefer proper old English. What I can't stand is bad English. I wish people translating into English would get the help of those who are native English speakers, even native US English speakers at a push. This is happening more now but lots of early books are just too badly translated to use.


    Fr Peter, while I agree there are a lot of badly translated works out there, it's equally difficult to define "bad" English. For example, many translators use the preposition "unto". There is a hymn "Be faithful unto death". Yet Philippains 2:8 in the NIV says "obedient to the point of death". Another good example is Isaiah 9:6. "Unto us a child is born." The preposition is used extensively in the NKJV but rarely in the NIV. I, personally think, prepositions like "unto" should be considered "bad" English. And I think the NIV editors would agree. But NKJV obviously prefer archaic-like words like this.

    So we have multiple versions of the Agbeya because of this problem. Some translators prefer archaic-like words they consider poetic, while others would consider NIV style too colloquial. Any thoughts.
  • I recently worked on a translation, and based the Psalms on the NRSV.

    Here's the link: agpeya.ca
  • I think that 'bad' English is defined by native speakers with a great deal of experience in reading and writing the English language.

    I don't think it is hard to define bad English. If there is no poetry in a liturgical/spiritual text then it is banal. That does not mean it should be incomprehensible of course. Many Agpeya texts use bad translations, or even wrong translations, and set the text in either a false English, or badly constructed English.

    I'd say that generally this is because Copts seem never to want to ask English people to help.

    That may be a generalisation, but it is my experience.
  • Fr Peter,
    I think we're saying the same thing. "Bad" English is culturally defined. I agree with you that Copts don't like to ask for help in English. But in defense of the Copts, I'd like to point out 2 concerns. First, I don't think the issue is that black and white. Like my example of "unto", even Bible writers don't agree on whether to consider "unto" as acceptable English. Second, the original Coptic and subsequent Arabic translations are sometimes so inundated with pronouns, prepositions and words that the original authors were not so clear. In Coptic, every verb needs a subject and an object attached. When there are multiple characters in the narrative, it becomes a puzzle to figure out which "he" did so-and-so verb to which "him". In addition, sentence structure is not the same in Greek, Coptic, Arabic and English. I remember reading once that the whole first chapter of St Paul's letter to the Ephesians (I think it was Ephesians) is one sentence. This is acceptable in Greek and Coptic, but not in English. It sometimes requires a great deal of skill to coherently translate and express the author's intention. It sometimes takes a paragraph in English to describe a sentence in Coptic.

    Maybe if you give an example from the Agbeya that you consider bad English, I'll look up the Coptic and see if the Coptic original is trying to say something else.
  • Well to be honest, if I think something is bad English then as an English speaker it probably is.

    The fact that 'unto' may or may not be used in Scripture translations has nothing to do with it being bad English or not. It depends entirely on what the translator is trying to achieve. Both using 'unto' and not using 'unto' can be good English in the hands of an expert English speaker.

    Some sections from Agpeyas which are not very good English (the worst ones don't seem to be online, and these that I have excerpted from are not terrible, but have obviously not had an English editor...

    ..O Emitter of light that is emitted..

    ..bring us to a good start.

    ..keep us this day away from sin.

    ..One is God the Father of everyone.

    ..The Morning Prayer of the blessed day.

    ..You saved our father, Adam, from the seduction...

    ..My eyes have awaken before the morning watch..

    ..from the risings of the sun to its settings..

    ..Let us praise Him a new praise,..

    ..I was meditating on Your ways..

    ..We glorify you, O Saint, the Theotokos..

    ..the firmness of the churches..

    ..for He has covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto Him..

    ..we thank You for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition..

    ..accepted us unto You..

    ..But those things which are good and profitable do provide for us..

    ..Surround us by Your holy angels, that, by their camp,..

    ..Guard us from every bad thing, from every sin, and from every adversitive power..

    ..Hail thee..

    ..Hail her, the Saint, the Virgin..

    ..O Virgin Saint Birthgiver of God,..

  • I always stumble over "adversitive" myself. My brain is thankfully much smarter than my mouth, so I know what they're going for, but...yeah, not quite there! I still cherish my Agpeya, but a native English-speaking editor or consultant wouldn't hurt.
  • A bit off topic perhaps, yet...I have a few questions about the Agpeya that I am hoping somebody might be kind enough to answer. It is concerning the hours themselves. My understanding is that the cycle of the Agpeya is as follows:

    Prime (First Hour) = 6 AM
    Terce (Third Hour) = 9 AM
    Sext (Sixth Hour) = 12 PM
    None (Ninth Hour) = 3 PM
    Vespers (Eleventh Hour) = 6 PM
    Compline (Twelfth Hour) = 9PM
    Midnight (Midnight Hour?) - 12 AM - done in three watches

    It appears to me that the format of the hours changes a bit as the cycle moves along. For instance, First hour is 6 AM, three hours later is the Third hour (Terce) which is 9 AM, three hours later if the Sixth Hour (Sext) at 12 PM so forth until we get to Vespers. Vespers is listed as the "Eleventh Hour" but a time is given for 6 PM. If None is the Ninth Hour at 3 PM, two hours later would be the Eleventh hour, which would put Vespers at 5 PM (not 6 PM). Or Vespers would be the Twelfth Hour (6 PM) rather than the Eleventh.

    In addition, I am wondering about the three watches for the Midnight Hour. Is each watch supposed to be an actual hour (i.e. first watch from 12 AM to 1 AM, 2nd watch from 1 AM to 2 AM, 3rd watch from 2 AM to 3 AM)?

    Lastly, are the times fixed or is this more situational. What I mean is, if Vespers is supposed to be sunset, do we say Vespers at sunset or do we say Vespers at 6 PM regardless of the actual time of sunset for that day? I have the same question for Prime (is this to be said at 6 AM or sunrise?).

    Lastly, when do priests, bishops and monks say the Veil? My copy of the Agpeya mentions it is to be said before retiring. Is this in addition to Compline? Are both said, one after the other?

    Antonious


  • [quote author=Antonious link=topic=11364.msg140717#msg140717 date=1309636637]
    Lastly, when do priests, bishops and monks say the Veil? My copy of the Agpeya mentions it is to be said before retiring. Is this in addition to Compline? Are both said, one after the other?

    Compline is prayed first followed by the veil.
  • Once again, I suggest seeing: agpeya.ca

  • minatasgeel,

    Thank you for the clarification regarding Compline and the Prayer of the Veil.

    Biboboy,

    Ah, I missed that the first time. The link was broken on the first message. Thank you for reposting it. I see that, according to Bishoy Dawood (the creator of that site), my guess was correct about the timing - the Eleventh Hour is 5 PM (not 6 PM), the Twelfth Hour is 6 PM (not 9 PM). This also answers my question about the Vigil Prayer (1st Watch = 9 PM, 2nd Watch = 12 AM and 3rd Watch = 3 AM).

    So, I guess the Agpeya is based around these fixed hours then. For instance, if sunset happens at, say 8 :30 PM, we would still pray Vespers at 5 PM. And if sunrise occurs at, say 6:30 AM or 7 AM, we would still pray Prime at 6 AM.

    Pardon my ignorance, this is all very new to me not having grown up in a Coptic Church but only recently being led to explore it. I find the Rites very beautiful and the history and theology quite profound.

    Antonious

  • Biboboy,

    Do you know of any plans to make a published (hard copy) version of the Agpeya based on the standards used on that website? I'd buy one.  :)
  • ..O Emitter of light that is emitted..

    Agreed. Bad English. Another version says, "You who brings forth light". This is exactly what the Coptic says.

    ..bring us to a good start.

    This one I can't explain. The Coptic found on Remenkimi.com says, "Let us glorify a good glory" This doesn't make sense either. I guess the Arabic translators changed it to "let us start well" and then translated to "bring us to a good start". I don't know how a native English speaker would "correct" this into good English. Let me know what you think.

    ..keep us this day away from sin.

    What is wrong with this? How would you change it? Would you change it to "guard us today from sin"?

    ..One is God the Father of everyone.

    What is wrong with this sentence? Isn't this a popular theological phrase? How would you change this?

    ..You saved our father, Adam, from the seduction...

    This is exactly what the Coptic says. I probably would change it to "You saved our father Adam from seduction" but I added the word "the" for the music only.

    ..My eyes have awaken before the morning watch..

    The Coptic literally says, "My eyes precede to reach the morning watch". This makes very little sense. How would you change it?

    ..from the risings of the sun to its settings..

    I'm glad you mentioned this one. I've objected to this for many years. The Coptic literally says from "The places of rise of the sun to the places of its sinking". The NIV says "from Sunrise to the place where it sets". This makes a lot of sense.

    ..We glorify you, O Saint, the Theotokos..

    I don't know what is wrong with this sentence. Can you explain?

    ..the firmness of the churches..

    ..for He has covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto Him..

    Again, what is wrong with this sentence. Is it the use of "unto"?

    ..we thank You for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition..

    I agree with you on this. Other translations have "we thank you for everything, concerning everything and in everything [in our lives]"? Is this better?

    ..accepted us unto You..

    This goes back to what I said before. The Coptic attaches the subject and the object to every verb. It would be sufficient to say "You accepted us" in English.

    ..But those things which are good and profitable do provide for us..

    This is exactly what the Coptic says. I guess it would be better written as "Provide us those things which are good and profitable."

    ..Surround us by Your holy angels, that, by their camp,..

    The Coptic writes, "Make a wall on us with your holy angels so that they guard us and they guide in their camp.." Of course, this would be worse than the sentence you quoted. I guess it should be written "Surround us with your holy angels so that they guard and guide us through their company..."

    ..Hail her, the Saint, the Virgin..

    Would it be better to say, "Hail to her, the saint and Virgin..."?

    I hope we can keep the discussion going.
  • Concerning Vespers, it is supposed to be done during or immediately after sunset since Vespers comes from Esperinos which means evening/setting of the sun. Because it would be very confusing for a church to consistently be changing its time of Vespers according to when the sun actually sets, it is usually done at a set time around the setting of the sun such as 6:30 pm or 7 pm etc.

    Also, Compline (from completorium) meaning the completion of the day is usually said (yes at 9 pm) before retiring to bed. At seminary we always did Compline prayers at 9:15 pm.

    Btw, the Coptic Agpeya prayers and structure are identical in many cases with the Byzantine Horologion for example in the litanies and in the concluding prayer as well as the trisagion (minus who was born of the Virgin...etc) and the Doxology: "Glory to God in the highest..."

    Interestingly enough, the Syriac hourly prayers were apparently altered at some point and the myriads of hymns composed ended up replacing the psalms. I have one such book and in comparison to the Coptic and Byzantine Horologia (Hours Prayer books), the Syriac ones have much fewer psalms. A similar feature can be noticed when comparing Coptic and Greek architecture to Syriac architecture...but thats for another discussion :)
  • Timothym,

    Thank you for your many insightful comments.
  • Christ is in our midst! 

    In a great deal of fervour and love of the Agpeya (and also noticing some of the clumsy English), I started working on "translation" of the Agpeya--it's not really a translation, as I'm not going back to the Coptic, but just cleaning up the English used in the current translation found at www.agpeya.com

    Would anyone be interested in proof-reading my pre-first draft?  I would like input, however, I warn you that it is proper Liturgical English, not modern English. 
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