Evidence for female leadership in Church

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Comments

  • Now that we've clearly established your lack of English reading and verbal comprehension, perhaps it would be wise to just step aside, not allowing further embarrassment of your 'condition' and just let the adults carry on with their discussion.

    We? who is we?

  • May God have mercy me. I, who for the sake of presenting one or another side of a discussion, have disrespected another one of His children. I, who have lost the commandment of love that I am to guide my life by, in order to ensure that my point was made. Have I lost all spirituality in me? Have I forced Christ from my mind and heart? Have I taken pride in my words that I have posted here, rather than learn from others and grow in unity with you all?

    My Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137563#msg137563 date=1304797275]
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137560#msg137560 date=1304796671]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137558#msg137558 date=1304796109]
    Then who breathed on the 70? Can we so readily dismiss any possibility that St. Paul breathed on Junia and gave her the apostleship in the narrow sense? They did not necessarily need to be picked by Christ Himself but could have been picked by one of His disciples or apostles. . .

    Your point is valid and making Junia into an apostle in the narrow sense would be to add too much to the text that isn't there. The only strong counter-argument that I can see coming is that there is no such thing as an apostle in the narrow sense. That is why I was asking for evidence of priestly duties being handled strictly by the apostles (e.g. distributing the Body and Blood).


    The 70 apostles are mentioned in St. Luke's gospel correct? If that is the case, and Christ did send them out to preach as well, then in all likelihood they also were breathed upon by Christ Himself. I think there is something important to realize though, just because a person was an apostle, does not make them, by default, a priest (i.e. they are given the ability to administer the sacraments). Granted, the 12 disciples and the 70 apostles were both apostles and priests/bishops. However, that does not mean that all the apostles that followed were also ordained as priests. Take St. Stephen for instance, he preached the gospel but was ordained as a deacon only, not a priest. Thus, St. Stephen, in all likelihood, aided in the services of the Church, but did not administer the Sacraments. Does that make sense?


    Christ sent the 70 out to preach. That makes me think they were apostles in the broad sense. Why wouldn't Luke mention they were 'breathed on' just as the disciples were? I understand what you are saying. I just think it is arbitrary to pick and choose when we think someone is an "Apostle" or an "apostle". . .there is a lack of evidence? It is very possible that the 12 appointed others, maybe a few women. . .Why assume the women mentioned were apostles?


    I see what you're trying to say. I honestly don't think there is a difference between an 'A'postle and 'a'postle. I think that some of the male apostles were also ordained into the priesthood while others were not. I do think that there were female apostles. But again, I think that there were different positions within the Church that required ordination: apostles, deacons, deaconesses, priests and bishops. Each is its own position and a person could be ordained to multiple positions. For instance, St. Peter was an apostle and also a bishop; Junia was an apostle and possibly a deaconess; Phoebe was a deaconess; Stephen was a deacon.
  • If I said, 'imikhail is ofnote among the resident village idiots on tasbeha.org' and 'imikhail is among the resident village idiots on tasbeha.org' it is clear that imikhail IS a resident village idiot on tasbeha.org. The difference is, in the first case, imikhail is especially notable (i.e. worthy of attention or notice) as a resident village idiot whereas, in the latter case, it's just a simple statement that imikhail is ranked among other resident village idiots.


    But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
    1 Corinthians 1:27 NRS


    Thanks cephas for your nice words. You be among the wise and the intelligent .. and I will be among the idiots.
  • I asked where is the source of the Origen statement.

    Does anyone know?

    If we cannot establish the authenticity of the statement, then there is niether external nor internal evidence that women were ordained to be apostles
  • Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less valid. However, allow me to 'update' it to the present tense so you can better swallow it.

    Who gave you the authority to update any verse so that it may fit your interpretation.

    Here is the verse again:

    "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

    It is very clear that St Paul is not speaking in a historical context. Why would he say that a certain apostle is well known among the apostles (according to the Coptic translation), or of good note according to NKJ translations?

    Were the apostles of varying honor among themselves?

    Again, if we cannot have a clear evidence that show Junia was an apostle, then the discussion is fruitless. The only thing I agree with is Origen's statement. However, I am questioning its authenticity based on its source.

    There is no Tradition within the Church of any female apostle among the seventy two apostles or the 12 diciples
  • The term "apostle" in the Church has a very specific context:

    Bishop who has the authority to establish Churches, ordain priests, baptize, ....

    All the apostles, the 72 and the 12 had those authorities.

    Non of these authorities were given to women.

    As explained before women could preach, convert people but salvation of those souls depended on the sacraments that were conducted by the apostles and those whom they ordained of male priests.

    None of the women could, can, or will administer the sacraments within the Orthodox Church
  • It seems they were both Gentiles who became Christian as a result of their encounter with St. Paul.

    Both these people were certainly Jews. They may also be related to St Paul.

    Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. NKJ

    Greet Androni'cus and Ju'nias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me. RSV

    Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. NIV

  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137566#msg137566 date=1304797715]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137563#msg137563 date=1304797275]
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137560#msg137560 date=1304796671]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137558#msg137558 date=1304796109]
    Then who breathed on the 70? Can we so readily dismiss any possibility that St. Paul breathed on Junia and gave her the apostleship in the narrow sense? They did not necessarily need to be picked by Christ Himself but could have been picked by one of His disciples or apostles. . .

    Your point is valid and making Junia into an apostle in the narrow sense would be to add too much to the text that isn't there. The only strong counter-argument that I can see coming is that there is no such thing as an apostle in the narrow sense. That is why I was asking for evidence of priestly duties being handled strictly by the apostles (e.g. distributing the Body and Blood).


    The 70 apostles are mentioned in St. Luke's gospel correct? If that is the case, and Christ did send them out to preach as well, then in all likelihood they also were breathed upon by Christ Himself. I think there is something important to realize though, just because a person was an apostle, does not make them, by default, a priest (i.e. they are given the ability to administer the sacraments). Granted, the 12 disciples and the 70 apostles were both apostles and priests/bishops. However, that does not mean that all the apostles that followed were also ordained as priests. Take St. Stephen for instance, he preached the gospel but was ordained as a deacon only, not a priest. Thus, St. Stephen, in all likelihood, aided in the services of the Church, but did not administer the Sacraments. Does that make sense?


    Christ sent the 70 out to preach. That makes me think they were apostles in the broad sense. Why wouldn't Luke mention they were 'breathed on' just as the disciples were? I understand what you are saying. I just think it is arbitrary to pick and choose when we think someone is an "Apostle" or an "apostle". . .there is a lack of evidence? It is very possible that the 12 appointed others, maybe a few women. . .Why assume the women mentioned were apostles?


    I see what you're trying to say. I honestly don't think there is a difference between an 'A'postle and 'a'postle. I think that some of the male apostles were also ordained into the priesthood while others were not. I do think that there were female apostles. But again, I think that there were different positions within the Church that required ordination: apostles, deacons, deaconesses, priests and bishops. Each is its own position and a person could be ordained to multiple positions. For instance, St. Peter was an apostle and also a bishop; Junia was an apostle and possibly a deaconess; Phoebe was a deaconess; Stephen was a deacon.


    The problem is, most of the time they are described just as apostles. St. Peter is not called a bishop in the Bible (if I recall correctly). Nor was anyone called a priest in the NT. So when Junia is labeled an 'apostle' and Barnabas is also an 'apostle,' why assume they did not have the same responsibilities. There is nothing in the text to show that Barnabas did anything more than preach and do miracles, there is no mention of him ordaining someone a priest, or distributing the communion, etc. (again this is just my recollection). . .why not think him and Junia were equal?
  • The term "apostle" in the Church has a very specific context:

    Bishop who has the authority to establish Churches, ordain priests, baptize, ....

    All the apostles, the 72 and the 12 had those authorities.

    Non of these authorities were given to women.

    As explained before women could preach, convert people but salvation of those souls depended on the sacraments that were conducted by the apostles and those whom they ordained of male priests.

    None of the women could have, can, or will be able to administer the sacraments within the Orthodox Church since its foundation by the Lord and His disciples
  • Were there any priestesses in the OT?

    Priesthood in the OT as well as the NT is preserved from men.

    Through man came the woman. Meaning that her life or existence is dependent on him.

    Through man came salvation, the 2nd Adam, who brought life back to her after her fall.

    Man is entrusted with the rituals through which the sacraments are performed and salvation is attained.

    There is no evidence AT ALL of a priestess woman.

    Yes there were deaconesses but do not have a priestly rank.

    Yes there were apostle women but with no priestly rank

    Yes there were prophetesses but with no priestly rank

    Yes there were women who facilitated the spread of the Word but with no priestly rank.

    Even the Virgin had no priestly rank.

    Women can prophesy as much as they want, can spread the word to the whole world and can change the hearts by the millions. However without priesthood their labor is in vain.

    Sacraments are essential for salvation and cannot be performed unless there is a priest, deacon and laity but the first two must be males.

    There is nothing in the Bible, Holy Tradition, Liturgical prayers, Church cannons that point to any priestly function assigned to the woman.
  • There 70 apostles are mentioned in St. Luke's gospel correct?

    The Tradition of the Coptic Church is that there were 72 apostles.

    BTW none were women
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    Unworthy1,

    I'm not sure if you have already done this or not, but here are the wikipedia articles on Andronicus and Junia. Let me know your thoughts.
  • So reading the references posted, it is clear that the studies lean toward having these two figures of "good reputation" among the apostles and not necessarily they were apostles themselves.

    These studies agree with the Coptic translation that they were "well known" to the apostles.

    I hope this ends the debate that Junia received ordination as an apostle.

    For apostleship was ONLY reserved for men. This means that sacraments were ONLY conducted by men.

  • In the Orthodox Church, there is no internal or external evidence that ANY woman has ever conducted the sacraments nor has ever received the rank of priesthood.
  • Unworthy1,

    The problem is, most of the time they are described just as apostles. St. Peter is not called a bishop in the Bible (if I recall correctly). Nor was anyone called a priest in the NT. So when Junia is labeled an 'apostle' and Barnabas is also an 'apostle,' why assume they did not have the same responsibilities. There is nothing in the text to show that Barnabas did anything more than preach and do miracles, there is no mention of him ordaining someone a priest, or distributing the communion, etc. (again this is just my recollection). . .why not think him and Junia were equal?

    Sorry this is a little unrelated but I hope it will help you. The Priesthood is referred to repeatedly in the Bible and there are people called priests. If I recall correctly (I heard this on a podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko, but also recall reading it somewhere else), there was not a differentiation between Priest (Presbyteroc) and Bishop (Episcopos) at this point in the Church during the times of the Apostlesand the terms where used interchangeably by the Apostles. It is when the Church grew that we see the Apostolic Fathers like St. Ignatius really show a differentiation between the two terms.

    For example John the Apostle takes the title πρεσβύτερος to himself in 3 John 1:1. This is unfortunately translated elder in many bibles, but this word is actually the original word for Priest (I have heard that the title went from presbyter to prest to preist in English as people shortened it.) St. Peter also calls himself a Presbyter in 1 Peter 5:1.

    If you look at this page: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4245.htm you can see the uses of the word in the New Testament. These certainly show that there was a structure in the Church. I hope it helps.
  • Junia was never named an apostle but rather she was well known among the apostles.

    There is no Church Tradition that she had ever received a priestly rank.
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137577#msg137577 date=1304802710]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    Unworthy1,

    I'm not sure if you have already done this or not, but here are the wikipedia articles on Andronicus and Junia. Let me know your thoughts.


    I briefly skimmed it. But since when do we care what scholars think? I have posted three church fathers who said she was an apostle.
  • [quote author=anba bola link=topic=11375.msg137580#msg137580 date=1304804663]
    Unworthy1,

    The problem is, most of the time they are described just as apostles. St. Peter is not called a bishop in the Bible (if I recall correctly). Nor was anyone called a priest in the NT. So when Junia is labeled an 'apostle' and Barnabas is also an 'apostle,' why assume they did not have the same responsibilities. There is nothing in the text to show that Barnabas did anything more than preach and do miracles, there is no mention of him ordaining someone a priest, or distributing the communion, etc. (again this is just my recollection). . .why not think him and Junia were equal?

    Sorry this is a little unrelated but I hope it will help you. The Priesthood is referred to repeatedly in the Bible and there are people called priests. If I recall correctly (I heard this on a podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko, but also recall reading it somewhere else), there was not a differentiation between Priest (Presbyteroc) and Bishop (Episcopos) at this point in the Church during the times of the Apostlesand the terms where used interchangeably by the Apostles. It is when the Church grew that we see the Apostolic Fathers like St. Ignatius really show a differentiation between the two terms.

    For example John the Apostle takes the title πρεσβύτερος to himself in 3 John 1:1. This is unfortunately translated elder in many bibles, but this word is actually the original word for Priest (I have heard that the title went from presbyter to prest to preist in English as people shortened it.) St. Peter also calls himself a Presbyter in 1 Peter 5:1.

    If you look at this page: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4245.htm you can see the uses of the word in the New Testament. These certainly show that there was a structure in the Church. I hope it helps.


    That is interesting; I have always seen it as elder. This is strong evidence of an existing church hierarchy. But why would it be translated as elder if the more appropriate word is priest?
  • Junia was never named an apostle but rather she was well known among the apostles.

    There is no Church Tradition that she had ever received a priestly rank.



    In the Orthodox Church, there is no internal nor external evidence that ANY woman has ever conducted the sacraments nor has ever received the rank of priesthood.

    According to the Coptic translation she was only well known to the apostles and not among them.

    Women had never held any priestly rank and will never do
  • Unworthy1,

    The most appropriate word is presbyter, with priest as a close runner-up since it used as a synonym to presbyter. The translation of elder is not technically incorrect but very misleading. I suppose the reason for this translation is because most Bible translations are done by Protestants and they have a bias towards translating it this way rather than in a way which would show the existence of Church Hierarchy (I suppose this happens at times subconsciously, i.e. they aren't trying to mis-translate it, but their beliefs show through in the translations).

    A Priest (Presbyter)  is technically an elder, so if anything this is misleading but not necessarily a mis-translation.

    imikhail

    Junia was never named an apostle but rather she was well known among the apostles.

    There is no Church Tradition that she had ever received a priestly rank.


    In the Orthodox Church, there is no internal nor external evidence that ANY woman has ever conducted the sacraments nor has ever received the rank of priesthood.

    She could have been an Apostle, but not one of the 70 just as St. Paul was. This means that she didn't have to have a priestly rank, but could still be an apostle.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11375.msg137593#msg137593 date=1304823403]
    Junia was never named an apostle but rather she was well known among the apostles.

    There is no Church Tradition that she had ever received a priestly rank.



    In the Orthodox Church, there is no internal nor external evidence that ANY woman has ever conducted the sacraments nor has ever received the rank of priesthood.

    According to the Coptic translation she was only well known to the apostles and not among them.

    Women had never held any priestly rank and will never do


    As long as you continue to ignore the John Chrysostom, Theoderet, and Origen, I will continue to ignore you. Either address what they have written about the verse, or stop posting the same thing over and over.
  • Unworthy,

    I am not seeking your atttention.

    I have aked you for Origen's reference but it seems you cannot or unwilling to provide it.

    When you site a a quote jt is ways important to give a reference. You did so with. Chrysostom.


  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11375.msg137603#msg137603 date=1304828215]
    Unworthy,

    I am not seeking your atttention.

    I have aked you for Origen's reference but it seems you cannot or unwilling to provide it.

    When you site a a quote jt is ways important to give a reference. You did so with. Chrysostom.





    I have provided you with the information I have. I could care less whose attention you are seeking. It amazes me how someone who repeatedly refers to the fathers, tradition, etc. can so easily push them aside when it becomes an inconvenience to your argument.

    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11375.msg137593#msg137593 date=1304823403]
    Junia was never named an apostle but rather she was well known among the apostles.


    St. John Chrysostom- "Homilies on Romans 31" on Romans 16:6-7

    "Think how great the devotion of this woman Junia must have been , that she should be worthy to be called an apostle!"

    Theoderet - "Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans" on Romans 16:7

    "These people were companions of Paul in his sufferings and even shared imprisonment with him. Hence he says that they are men and women of note, not among the pupils but among the teachers, and not among the ordinary teachers but among the apostles!"

    Origen - "Commentary of the Epistle to the Romans" on Romans 16:1-12

    "This passage teaches that there were women ordained in the church's ministry by the apostle's authority."

    ---Address these quotes, which your post seems to contradict, or stay silent.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137591#msg137591 date=1304821915]
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137577#msg137577 date=1304802710]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    Unworthy1,

    I'm not sure if you have already done this or not, but here are the wikipedia articles on Andronicus and Junia. Let me know your thoughts.


    I briefly skimmed it. But since when do we care what scholars think? I have posted three church fathers who said she was an apostle.


    The reason is so that we can remain academically honest and keep an open mind. I feel it is important to get as many views as possible so that we can better formulate our own (informed) opinions, as opposed to sticking our heads in the ground and risking taking a very narrow-minded approach. I agree that the three Church Fathers that have been referenced do help solidify one perspective over another. But it never hurts to get more sources.
  • I definitely agree. I wouldn't be taking this course if I wasn't open-minded. Would you mind concluding this discussion, Cephas? I think we have belabored the point and it is time to summarize the facts. Unless someone has something new to add. . .
  • I have provided you with the information I have. I could care less whose attention you are seeking. It amazes me how someone who repeatedly refers to the fathers, tradition, etc. can so easily push them aside when it becomes an inconvenience to your argument.

    Dear Unworthy1,

    I am not pushing aside anything but in fact dealing with the quotes you provided. So, here I will deal with it again ...

    But before we study these quotes, we must define the word apostle from the Bible and Church Tradition.

    We know that the Lord chose 72 apostles and 12 disciples who were also called apostles. The 12 disciples were also called apostles. Apostle in this context has a very specific meaning and according to our Lord, they were to preach, baptize, absolve, ... These were priestly functions that are in the Gospels.

    Now, we know that the 12 He chose were all men and the one replaced Judas was also a man. But one may say, women were among the 72 that he chose. That is not possible according to the names we have.

    Also, when you study Acts 1 you will notice that there were women who were witnesses to His resurrection. At His ascension, Jesus again commanded the apostles to preach and baptize. These authorities were not given to the women who were with Him from the beginning, even His mother the Theotokos.

    So the priestly function was preserved only to the ones He chose. Names of two men were submitted for the selection of Judas' replacement.

    "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." 23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    Notice the bold words and we can deduct the following:

    Men are only allowed to become an apostle.
    Apostleship is a ministry
    Witness to the resurrection of the Lord.

    Why none of the women were selected. I am sure that the Virgin was more qualified than Matthias?

    The third item "witness to the resurrection" was very important that St Paul fought bitterly to establish his apostleship for people rejected his ministry as he was not a witness. Yet, he said that it was Christ Himself Who sent him after appearing to him and teaching him.

    So, this is the biblical evidence that there is no single woman who was chosen in the ministry of apostleship.

    From the Holy Tradition, we know that there were no women who practiced any priestly function; neither from the documents we have nor the history of the Church.

    Romans 16:7 present us with Junia
    Was Junia among those who witnessed the resurrection? Perhaps. Yet she was a woman so there is no way she was commissioned to be among the apostles conducting priestly functions.

    Again, is there any biblical evidence that there were women among the apostles, either the 72 or the 12? None.

    Certainly, Junia was among the first generation of the apostles for she was a Christian before St Paul himself. So, was she ordained to be an apostle? Or was she among the 72?

    Again her name is not on the list of the 72 in any of the Traditions of any Church.

    Now we can turn to the quotes you referenced:
    St. Chrysostom quote:
    Think how great the devotion of this woman Junia must have been , that she should be worthy to be called an apostle!"

    Here is another translation of the same quote:
    Oh! How great is the devotion (φιλοσοφία) of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!

    Why would St Chrysostom call Junia an apostle? Did he mean it in the context of priesthood that we explained earlier? I doubt it.

    The term apostle could mean different things:
    Apostle chosen by the Lord
    Christ Himself
    Anyone who is involved in the preaching of the gospel

    Please read this article http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm

    Consequently, St John may very well called Junia an apostle in the sense that she toiled for the sake of the word




  • Let us take Theoderet's quote:

    "These people were companions of Paul in his sufferings and even shared imprisonment with him. Hence he says that they are men and women of note, not among the pupils but among the teachers, and not among the ordinary teachers but among the apostles"

    When I read this quote, I infer that the two people, Andronicus and Juna, were well known not only to the ordinary people but their reputation has reached the ears of the apostles.

    Again, we must differentiate between the apostles chosen by the Lord, whom are referenced here, and the general term that is given to those who serve the word within the Church.

    They certainly could not be among those chosen by the Lord as we established earlier. There is no barrier to have them called apostles in the sense that they assist Paul, the Church, ... in spreading the word.

  • Origen Statement

    "This passage teaches that there were women ordained in the church's ministry by the apostle's authority."

    Yes the apostles dis ordain women and in the Coptic Church there are women who are ordained. However, we must understand that this ordination has nothing to do with ministering the Church's sacraments nor does it have any priestly function.

    For example, the Church history tells us that there were women ordained to assist the bishop in baptizing women. The Coptic Church recently returned to this Tradition.

    Can we say that women could pray the anaphora, baptize, receive confessions, or any of the other priestly functions? Absolutely not.
  • The summary of this discussion is:

    Priesthood in the OT as well as the NT is preserved for men.

    Through man came the woman. Meaning that her life or existence is dependent on him.

    Through man came salvation, the 2nd Adam, who brought life back to her after her fall.

    Man is entrusted with the rituals through which the sacraments are performed and salvation is attained.

    There is no evidence AT ALL of a priestess woman.

    Yes there were deaconesses but do not have a priestly rank.

    Yes there were apostle women but with no priestly rank

    Yes there were prophetesses but with no priestly rank

    Yes there were women who facilitated the spread of the Word but with no priestly rank.

    Even the holy Virgin had no priestly rank.

    Women can prophesy as much as they want, can spread the word to the whole world and can change the hearts by the millions. However without priesthood their labor is in vain.

    Sacraments are essential for salvation and cannot be performed unless there is a priest, deacon and laity but the first two must be males.

    There is nothing in the Bible, Holy Tradition, Liturgical prayers, Church cannons that point to any priestly function assigned to the woman.

    Women were ordained to assist in the Church service, as in assisting the bishop with women baptism, but not to perform priestly functions.
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