Great Is Pateer

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Greetings all,

I'm listening to the recordings of the great Is Pateer and I noticed a small difference between two recordings. Hopefully someone who has learned it can point me in the right direction.

Lyrics: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1338
Ibrahim Ayad: http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Annual/Deacon_Responses/Ibrahim_Ayad/Liturgy/04.amen_espateer_great.1845.mp3
HICS: http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Other_Occasions/Papal_Hymns/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/01.Ic_Pateer_-_Long.1418.mp3

The biggest difference that I'm currently struggling with is on the second repetition of "Peniot Ethowab En-arshi-erevs" in the third paragraph.

In Ibrahim Ayad's recording, at approximately 7:12, he starts saying it. He says "Peniot ethowa-" and then he does three up-and-downs followed by two hazzats to lead into the end of the word "ethowab."

In the HICS recording, at approximately 6:37, the cantor starts the same part, but he does four up-and-downs followed by two hazzats to lead into the end of the word.

Additionally, I watched a video of this hymn being prayed at Mississauga last Easter, and they did four. I know sometimes Ibrahim Ayad "combines" hazzats but I can't hear him saying four up-and-downs at all, so I'm wondering if maybe he missed it?

So what is correct? Four or three?

Pray for me,
Michael Boutros

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Comments

  • i learned it as 3. It's not such a big deal if u r saying it by urself. If u r saying it with a group of people then discuss it with them and pick a way to do it. Just remember to pray it not just say it.
  • Follow the HICS.
  • [quote author=geomike link=topic=11146.msg134756#msg134756 date=1301536293]
    i learned it as 3. It's not such a big deal if u r saying it by urself. If u r saying it with a group of people then discuss it with them and pick a way to do it. Just remember to pray it not just say it.


    Geomike, did you learn it from the IA recording or from someone at your church?
  • Well, someone started teaching it to us in hymnology class but i got addicted and learned the rest myself from Ibrahim Ayad, lol. As you can tell i am quite a hymnology nerd.
  • I don't understand why it would be four and not three, it doesn't sound right with four. Does anyone have any other recording? The ones on CH.net are down.
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=11146.msg134768#msg134768 date=1301541899]
    I don't understand why it would be four and not three, it doesn't sound right with four. Does anyone have any other recording? The ones on CH.net are down.

    what i don't understand is why are making a big deal out of this?! it's a HAZZA.....if you sneeze during the hymn from incense or somthing you'll probably take more time than the duration of the hazza we are talking about.
  • I am learning this hymn right now and I simply want to ensure that I learn it properly.
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=11146.msg134773#msg134773 date=1301542850]
    I am learning this hymn right now and I simply want to ensure that I learn it properly.

    and you think a "HAZZA" will make all the difference?!
    actually, yeah it will. as soon as you set your foot in Paradise (after a looong time and many peaceful years on earth), an angel will stop and tell you that you have missed a hazza in yes pateer when you said in the 'eed 2011......you are going down to hell.......
  • Yes, to me, even one misplaced hazza makes a difference. If I can do something right, then why not do it?
  • Michael just do 3 hazzas. Everyone's doing it. It's the cool thing. Go with the flow man.


    [coptic peer pressure ;D]
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=11146.msg134775#msg134775 date=1301543529]
    Yes, to me, even one misplaced hazza makes a difference. If I can do something right, then why not do it?

    but this is not something that is considered absolute.....if you believe this than trust me when i say that you are sending many many deacons to hell that way.

    ya habib alby....you are not a robot. you are a human being. a likness and an image of God Himself. He wants to hear from you, from your heart. if God wants to hear music He can create and put together the best symphony ever. His creation to the world and the universe can witness to that. if we think we can fool HIM, than why not just get mp3 players and just play them during services instead of young deacons (or old uncles) who don't know anything of alhan but try, or those who do but just sound awful.
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=11146.msg134775#msg134775 date=1301543529]
    Yes, to me, even one misplaced hazza makes a difference. If I can do something right, then why not do it?


    I agree with you. Don't listen to what people say. Keep going with the 3 hazzas, I learned it that way too.
  • With solo responses it won't matter. But with congregational hymns, unity is above all things.
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11146.msg134784#msg134784 date=1301547340]
    I agree with you. Don't listen to what people say. Keep going with the 3 hazzas, I learned it that way too.

    great advice.........don't listen to ppl....ever....

    May God have mercy upon us.
  • Stop thinking everything is about you. Did I say "Don't listen to Mina?" I said "to PEOPLE!" Read before you speak please.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11146.msg134788#msg134788 date=1301550049]
    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11146.msg134784#msg134784 date=1301547340]
    I agree with you. Don't listen to what people say. Keep going with the 3 hazzas, I learned it that way too.

    great advice.........don't listen to ppl....ever....

    May God have mercy upon us.


    Stop thinking everything is about you. Did I say "Don't listen to Mina?!" I said "to PEOPLE!!" Read carefully before you speak please.
  • Did I say "Don't listen to Mina?" I said "PEOPLE!"
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11146.msg134793#msg134793 date=1301550785]
    Did I say "Don't listen to Mina?" I said "PEOPLE!"

    am i not a human being and considered one of the many "people" on earth?! am i a bot that keeps posting here......maybe i am having more than 4500 posts.
  • I disagree with all here except Michael Boutros and maybe imikhail. This is not the first hymn that Cantor Ibrahim records differently and from what I'm hearing won't be the last. The man is used to modernizing and embellishing even hymns he recorded before, contradicting himself. I also like to be very strict with each and every notation, follow HICS wherever possible, and if not available then Cantor Gad.
    So it's four. Everybody else agrees to that; listen to HICS asbazesta, listen to HCOC yesbadair, listen to Cantor Gad, although I can't remember listening to him myself.
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11146.msg134804#msg134804 date=1301555037]
    I disagree with all here except Michael Boutros and maybe imikhail. This is not the first hymn that Cantor Ibrahim records differently and from what I'm hearing won't be the last. The man is used to modernizing and embellishing even hymns he recorded before, contradicting himself. I also like to be very strict with each and every notation, follow HICS wherever possible, and if not available then Cantor Gad.
    So it's four. Everybody else agrees to that; listen to HICS asbazesta, listen to HCOC yesbadair, listen to Cantor Gad, although I can't remember listening to him myself.
    Oujai



    I don't mean to sound rude but who made you the boss to the point where you tell us to agree to what you have to say?

    And it's not called contradicting himself. It's called revising the hymn to say more correctly based on the correct pronunciation of the Coptic language. The only reason why people keep saying to use HICS is because they haven't changed their recordings, which is fine; I'm not against the HICS at all, I learned from them some stuff. The only reason why their recordings weren't changed was because they did not re-record the old hymns with the new proper pronunciation. Referring back to Cantor Ibrahim Ayad's case, there is no problem in re-recording hymns because we're all human beings who make mistakes and we're all adaptive beings as well to learn from our mistakes and correct them.
  • kmeka001,

    What is the "proper pronunciation"? What authority is driving the changes? What are the references for the changes?

    Who said that evki is wrong and evshi is correct? Who said that ebshoyce is wrong and epetchoyce is correct?


    Thanks
  • Why don't you hear it from Mlm. Mikhail himself?  He should be the final authority on these things.  The hazzat in question start at around 2:53. 

    http://www.mediafire.com/?xzcm0b1x6b9wdsb
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=11146.msg134749#msg134749 date=1301532556]
    In Ibrahim Ayad's recording, at approximately 7:12, he starts saying it. He says "Peniot ethowa-" and then he does three up-and-downs followed by two hazzats to lead into the end of the word "ethowab."

    In the HICS recording, at approximately 6:37, the cantor starts the same part, but he does four up-and-downs followed by two hazzats to lead into the end of the word.


    Hi Michael,
    I think it is supposed to be 4 hazzat, just like Muallem Sadek's recording (the HICS recording) you refer to. I respect Muallem Ibrahim very much and have learnt plenty from his recordings, but he is human like everyone else and may have just missed a hazza here. Compare his recording of the great "Tovh Hina."
    http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Annual/Deacon_Responses/Ibrahim_Ayad/Liturgy.html

    At 5:38, his "Penyot ethoab" part has 4 hazzat. I would imagine that if we got a live recording of Muallem Ibrahim during a Liturgy, he would have probably said 4 hazzat.
  • Please also note that in the Long "Aspazeste," which has the same musical hazzat in the "estomen" part (at 3:36), Muallem Ibrahim uses 4 hazzat.

    http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Annual/Deacon_Responses/Ibrahim_Ayad/Liturgy.html
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11146.msg134780#msg134780 date=1301544325]
    [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=11146.msg134775#msg134775 date=1301543529]
    Yes, to me, even one misplaced hazza makes a difference. If I can do something right, then why not do it?

    but this is not something that is considered absolute.....if you believe this than trust me when i say that you are sending many many deacons to hell that way.

    ya habib alby....you are not a robot. you are a human being. a likness and an image of God Himself. He wants to hear from you, from your heart. if God wants to hear music He can create and put together the best symphony ever. His creation to the world and the universe can witness to that. if we think we can fool HIM, than why not just get mp3 players and just play them during services instead of young deacons (or old uncles) who don't know anything of alhan but try, or those who do but just sound awful.


    Haha I guess my post was a bit terse, I don't mean that we should just focus on each and every single hazza. All I meant is that the hymn has been passed down in a certain way, and I'd prefer to do it properly. I am personally seeing the effects of losing our Coptic hymnology, and although it isn't much, me learning to say this hymn properly is my small contribution to preserving it.

    I didn't mean to start a debate on this matter... It should indeed be four hazzat, there is no argument about that, since every single other Cantor records it as such. (Coincidentally, however, there is even more ambiguity about the part right after, when we say "Avva Shenouda." In most recordings, we go long on this part, to the same tune of the "en-epnevma agion. Amen." However, in IA's recording, he does not, but I think it's because he includes a part for a metropolitan/bishop. However, in a different and much older recording, the Cantor says "peniot ethowab empatriarshees" and doesn't go long on "Avva Shenouda", and also doesn't include the part for the metropolitan/bishop. Regardless, I'll go with the HICS way and go long on the "Avva Shenouda" as that's what's most common.)

    As to why Cantor Ibrahim Ayad didn't do four, I totally agree with mechaiel that he just made an honest mistake, as in other recordings with the same tune (as mechaiel provided) he does it with four. He's an amazing Cantor and making a mistake here or there in a collection of hundreds (if not thousands) of hymns isn't a huge deal. The only other one I can think of is the recording of Evlogimenos where he repeats a whole line twice.

    Mystery solved, thanks everyone! :)

    Sidenote: You know what I do not understand? Why this website and CH.net both have Annual Liturgy Responses and Papal Hymns as two seperate categories, but many papal hymns are in the Annual section. On this website it's only Ibrahim Ayad, but on CH.net there are more recordings of the great Is Pateer in the Annual section than the Papal section, and the two in the Papal section don't even work! Oh the joys of multiple contributors :)
  • Dear kmeka,
    Thanks for pointing that out to me. Probably I made myself boss then... I do apologise.
    As for the second point; very interesting. If you revise yourself that is fine, but that is not the point. The point is why do you record a hymn you are not so sure of in the first place? I am not talking about pronunciation here, I am talking about notations. If you listen to more than one hymn cantor Ibrahim recorded you will notice differences in notations, regardless of the way he speaks Coptic.
    Oujai
  • I find it really sad when people have come down to arguing over ONE hazza. I'm all for preservation of hymns and for sure the most correct way to say it, but this is ridiculous. You are going to lose the purpose of chanting the hymn if you are that picky and even not allowing yourself to make a mistake. As mina stated you can cough or sneeze while singing this and alter the hymn, should we all come down on you the way people have been coming down on ibrahim ayad? I think NONE of you has the right to say this is right and this is not. Go with the general consensus among cantors but do not disrespect one or the other for anything they do. I can pretty much guarantee that none of us on this forum have done 1/4 of what any of these cantors have done to preserve the hymns as best as they can. The tone among these topics(this one, ones on OB Vs GB etc) have become very accusatory and complaining about one thing or the other. Thats not the spirit we should have ever especially about our own heritage. We should be working together to preserve hymns not cutting each other down. My two cents..
  • Dear jydeacon,
    In my paranoia, I think partly you refer to me. Ok thanks for pointing out your point of view. Let me just explain what I understand from these forums. They are constructive, meant to build each other up. That said, it is understandable that people should be HONEST in their opinions, and have a full amount of respect whilst DEBATING different arguments. I never thought any one here would be pleased bashing somebody else, let alone cantors in the church, but out of zeal of defending what we believe is right, we point out other people's fallacies and mistakes. Perfectly fine to me, NO ONE IS INFALLIBLE including POPE SHENOUDA.
    God bless us all and have mercy on His Church
    Oujai
  • I was not directing my post directly to you. I appreciate what you bring to this forum, but at the same time we can express what we believe without cutting others down. I do not think anyone is beyond reproach far be it from that, however I feel like its easy for us to sit on a judgement seat and make statements about one cantor or one topic when we are really in no position to do so.
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