I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants

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  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128262#msg128262 date=1296015196]
    I believe its as simple as this ans as crazy as this sounds! If you can say that protestants are not christians ans that they are not ur brethren and that they will not make it to heaven than you will not be making it there either christian or not! Because by saying and thinking that you are less worthy than they are. They dont have sacraments but we are prideful and judgemental.


    Protestants are not Christian, just as anyone else who claims is not necessarily Christian. Are Jehovah Witnesses Christian? If not, then how do you judge that? What is the standard by which we are to judge? Its simple, the church that Christ founded in Mt 16:18 and Jn 20:23. You may take this as a judgment passed upon someone but quite simply it is a judgment passed upon the system of beliefs which they adhere to, which are not Christian. If we are to accept everything as Christian, because by your definition we can make no distinction, then how can we expect someone to navigate their way through the sea of chaos that is protestantism. There are over 40,000 denominations in protestantism and according to Eph 4:5 there is "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism" Not many. The early church fathers, including those taught by the apostles, wrote plenty of apologies against heresies, often times ones that considered themselves Christian.

    Christ_Rose, you are misunderstanding what is being said here. We are not taking on the role of Christ in judging wether or not you will be forgiven or how you will be judged, what we are simply saying is that the evidence clearly shows that protestantISM is NOT Christian. Read what I posted before this post so that you may get a better idea of why protestantISM is not Christian. Protestantism rejects the sacraments, the sacrament of Communion is a necessity, if you reject that you reject the body of Christ, how exactly is that Christian?

    Judging the belief is completely acceptable.
  • U would like to keep something in the bible out of the church?? Im not talking about during liturgy or tasbeha or any liturgical service im talking aboutnmeetings for the youth praise meetings! Prayer meetings that dont just have to be agbeya!! And answert the question abanoub? What would jesus christ say?? Dont even judge protestantism because in judging it u judge those who follow it as many of my brothers have done on this post today and im sorry for provokong this. Maybe i shoudnt have posted i apologize for my weakness. Plz forgove me and pray 4 me
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128274#msg128274 date=1296018626]
    U would like to keep something in the bible out of the church?? Im not talking about during liturgy or tasbeha or any liturgical service im talking aboutnmeetings for the youth praise meetings! Prayer meetings that dont just have to be agbeya!! And answert the question abanoub? What would jesus christ say?? Dont even judge protestantism because in judging it u judge those who follow it as many of my brothers have done on this post today and im sorry for provokong this. Maybe i shoudnt have posted i apologize for my weakness. Plz forgove me and pray 4 me


    I think praise meetings are the time when we HAVE to start singing orthodox songs! We can't let the youth grow up learning these 'songs' and ignoring the fact that we have a rich Coptic heritage that they are probably not aware of!

    and judging protestantism is not judging everyone who follows it, if i walked into a school and we say wow this school is disgusting, does that mean that everyone in the school is also disgusting.
  • Praise meetings is qhen we should let people praise the lord whichever way they want umless it is outrageous. Enough orthodox knots!! We practice muslim orthodoxy not true orthodoxy!! And when u judge their beleif nany times a person goes a little further and says they are not going to heaven
  • Christ_Rose, Your argument is fundamentally flawed. You are basically saying that we as Orthodox have no right to defend ourselves against heresy. The whole of the early church "judged" other non-Christian beliefs that claimed to be Christian. Why? To safeguard the faith of their flock. There is nothing wrong with saying a belief is not Christian or is incorrect, do you think we should not tell people that heavens gate, the branch davidians, or the peoples temple are wrong? Saying nothing to them would be silent acceptance of the belief. At no time should the church allow anyone to sing protestant hymns or songs, why do we need to sing them? These are specifically protestant songs, and we are Orthodox, so we should not integrate any other religion into our own. We have the most rich hymnology of any religion, in my opinion. The whole of our theology can be learned through the Psalmody and Liturgy, so what is the purpose for adding some songs of schismatics who reject the essence of Orthodoxy? St. Hippolytus said that in the endtimes people will stop singing the Psalmody, not songs but the Psalmody.

    You should no by now that I will die fighting against this heresy. I will do everything in my power to stop this integration of protestantism into our beloved church. I beg of you to realize that your mind is being poisoned and to repent for your insubordination to Christ.
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128277#msg128277 date=1296019859]
    Praise meetings is qhen we should let people praise the lord whichever way they want umless it is outrageous. Enough orthodox knots!! We practice muslim orthodoxy not true orthodoxy!! And when u judge their beleif nany times a person goes a little further and says they are not going to heaven


    Thats your problem, Protestantism is outrageous in every way when compared to Orthodoxy. It is a self centered superficial religion. Its doctrines are not just bad they are anti-Christian
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128277#msg128277 date=1296019859]
    Praise meetings is qhen we should let people praise the lord whichever way they want umless it is outrageous. Enough orthodox knots!! We practice muslim orthodoxy not true orthodoxy!! And when u judge their beleif nany times a person goes a little further and says they are not going to heaven


    Alrighty Danny, we should let all teh youth sing their fun "go jesus songs" and in fifty years when they are taking over the church and we are all wearing fuuny hats and clapping in the liturgy you will look back and say "hmm.... maybe it woulda been good to let them experience some of the church's beautiful hymns and traditions"

    You can not say you are defending the orthodox faith when you advocate change in our church!
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128277#msg128277 date=1296019859]
    Praise meetings is qhen we should let people praise the lord whichever way they want umless it is outrageous. Enough orthodox knots!! We practice muslim orthodoxy not true orthodoxy!! And when u judge their beleif nany times a person goes a little further and says they are not going to heaven


    Your argument keeps dwindling...

    I love the orthodox faith and all its aspects. It is the best way to get to heaven... and why don't we sing orthodox songs in our praise and worships and teach our kids these songs... dont you think thats a better way of defending our faith???
  • Maybe I should've asked this earlier, but reading through this thread again makes me wonder: What exactly is supposed to be going on at these youth meetings? It seems like most of us agree that what is going on at them in the case of the OP's church is bad, but for my own education, what would a good orthodox one look like?

    I'm curious because as a Protestant youth they made us attend "youth group" and that was such a nightmare...you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you... (unless you were raised Protestant, of course)
  • These youth meetings should be banished, I hear nothing but horror stories from these. The horrible yet encouraging thing is, the adults are practically forcing this protestant crap on our kids, often times they reject it and complain. The worst of the worst, nobody seems to listen and the clergy let it happen. Something needs to be done. If you want protestant songs go to a protestant church.
  • Abanoub,

    I felt exactly the same way as u.

    I hate guitars in a Coptic  church.

    Our youth have really gone Protestant. They even speak on tongues.

    As much as I love our priest, I think he is to blame.

    He should not do that. He should not participate and encourage this.

    Anba Angaelos told me that there is nothing wrong with these English hymns, but I think he fails to realize that it has opened the door to Protestantism in our church.

    The Friday meetings are just one big Protestant gathering. I think the reason also is that our youth are close to a lot of Protestant friends who they try to make "feel at home".

    Although I understand their need to pray in a language that is native to them, the WAY of prayer should still be Orthodox.

  • Zoxasi, are you serious? Speaking in tongues? What the hell has this church come to? You know, all of us who are against protestantism should band together somehow, they might be able to ignore one or two voices, but a multitude cannot be ignored. Anyone in?
  • [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128287#msg128287 date=1296025083]
    Zoxasi, are you serious? Speaking in tongues? What the hell has this church come to? You know, all of us who are against protestantism should band together somehow, they might be able to ignore one or two voices, but a multitude cannot be ignored. Anyone in?


    Habibi,

    Its awful.. and they justify it. What I hate the most is that they (those who promote this and justify it) came to our Church from a protestant background. Rather than have any respect for our traditions, our spirituality, they simply protestantized the Orthodox Church.

    In fact, if you go to Saint Mark's Church London, or Stevenage, you can expect to feel as if you are in a protestant Church.

    Maybe the youth think that they are in fact helping bridge the gap between different Churches. Maybe they think they are "building" ecumenical bridges.

    First of all... this is not the way. Secondly, it is an extreme lack of respect for the Church they belong to.

    They have this "feeling" that they need to change our church because they see it as "islamized Orthodoxy" (as Christ rose put it). Rather than understand WHY we do things the way we do, they just simply brush it off as nonsense that does not need to be in our Church.

    This apathy towards what is Orthodoxy and what is Spiritual Traditions in our Church is a worry for me.

    I REALLY blame the priest. There are a few key figures or personalities in our Church that promote and encourage such protestant behaviour, and even evangelize it, and the priest allows them to serve in the Church and even give Bible Study groups.

    Because they serve in the Church and they are popular, they have set the tone, amongst the youth, to what is acceptable praying, and what is not. They are the ones responsible. A priest would not do that. But HE is to blame because its his job to put limits.

    Now, they MAY know the Bible, and they may be sincere in their faith, but the priest is not wise for doing so.

    I think the turning point happened due to the Coptic Missionary Trips to Kenya:

    A lot of the youth in the Church went off to Kenya to serve with the Church. First of all, I felt it would have been better to give the price of the plane ticket to the poor. That's what they need. In fact, who ended up gaining from these trips WAS the youth, not the poor Kenyans.

    Whilst there, they saw and experienced the following:

    The translation of Orthodoxy according to the African culture. So, in Africa, the people pray whilst clapping hands, they use guitars and drums IN the Coptic Church. The Bishop there is quite charismatic. He's a brilliant man. Really. but he forgets to tell the youth that they are in Africa. The youth go back to where they came from (UK, France, Canada, USA), and they have the mindset that "its OK to change Orthodox Traditions for the sake of cultural requirements".

    That's the message the Church is unwittingly giving them.

    If I go to a fancy dress party that lasts for a week, dressed up as Batman, I will have loads of fun. ONE WEEK dressed up as Batman. Its the thing to do in any fancy dress party. However, although it was accepted in the party, for that week, I cannot go and dress this way to work or for general life. There was a place for such costume. There was a time for it.

    We cannot go off and bring in the Tabla (Drums) in our Church because ONE church in Africa sing hymns with the drums.

    Rather than go to Africa and promote Orthodox traditions and spirituality, the youth left Kenya and promoted African traditions in the Coptic Orthodox Church in the west! So what did they benefit? Everyone lost. It would have been WAY better to give the poor the money for the ticket than spending 1,000 euros on a ticket to go and help poor people. LOL. RIDICULOUS!!


    SO FOOLISH!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The priest(s) are again to blame. The priests, as much as I love them, ought to be cautioned. We need stronger leadership in the Church where a Bishop is not going to be afraid to explain, educate and correct priests. They are lacking in a LOT of wisdom some of our priests. BIG TIME!!

    For example, one priest (the one in the UK who allows protestant hymns and sings with them) - him in particular, he is VERY humble. But he is humble to the extent of self detriment and that of others.

    He explained in a Bible study that we should not forget our sins.

    RIGHT AWAY, this girl, from the "protestanized Bunch" shouted at him and said "WHY"? and corrected the priest. The priest stayed quiet. He didnt respond.

    Now, that's very humble of him, but its foolish (the action). Because its his job to teach also. Not forgetting your sins is VERY Orthodox AND Biblical. The Pope even wrote that the main difference between us and protestants IS that they tend to tell everyone to forget their sins, yet as Orthodox Christians, we do not do this. The Biblical proofs are there supporting His Holiness.

    So, I'm sorry to say this, this priest has a VERY WEAK personality or is not wise at all. You cannot have this. You will ruin your Coptic orthodox Church.

    COUNT ME IN IOANNES! I think we need to send a petition to Anba Angaelos. NO  MORE KUMBAYA HYMNS IN OUR CHURCH!!
  • I can't help but wonder, why is it that Hill-song Church can have 10,000+ people turn up in one of their gathering (where they do all their singing business), yet we struggle to get 100 people to turn up to youth meeting (on a friday night)???

    Whats the problem? & What can we do?

    & I think that is why to tend to to sing the protestant way, because it seems to attract the youth to church (well, at least to youth meeting). After-all H.H Pope Shoenouda III said, "A youth without a church are youth without a future, & a church without youth is a church without a future". So  if the youth will come to church in this way then.... :-\
  • Then.... We should reject it utterly as a false methodology. The Church will not lack a youth, but there will always be some youth who choose to abandon Orthodoxy. We must not corrupt the truth to try to keep them.

    The mega churches in the US are full because they do not preach Christianity. Orthodoxy is a narrow way, a way of self-denial. There are few who choose it.

    Quality not quantity is what matters. If few Coptic youth will come to a service then go out into the streets and find the Western non-Orthodox who are seeking a deeper Christian life and invite them in.

    That which will attract worldly people is not Christian and not Orthodox.

    Father Peter
  • Childoforthodoxy's post was the best. I don't think Christ_rose read it, or else he wouldn't continue to argue with us.

    Am I allowed to steal that transparent cup analogy?
    (completely off topic: I don't see why calling the Queen of England "duchess" is not appropriate; according to google a duchess is a wife of a duke, and a duke is the highest rank.)
  • A duke is the highest rank of nobility, but not of royalty.

    Father Peter
  • The end does not justify the means. If you make concessions to try and get the youth, then they will end up making even bigger concessions, eventually watering down the faith to where it is completely unrecognizable.

    You all fail to understand your own history and it kinda disgusts me. Egypt, for the most part, was converted by Islam in a violent way. Now only 10% of Egypt is Orthodox. Do you think it would have been acceptable to allow islamic hymns into the church? Sure certain things changed, but it had nothing to do with changing the style of worship. You might think that Islam is much different than the difference between protestantism and Orthodoxy, again remember when Islam came about many people, such as St. John of Damascus, considered it a "cult" stemming from a heretical Christian offshoot. We made no concessions in the way of worship or changing the church doctrines or hymns because of islam, and WE ARE STILL HERE! Dont dilute yourself into Macchavellian thinking that the end justifies the means.
  • Great..... So now that I know that I am not overreacting and this is an actual problem in a lot of churches..... [glow=red,2,300]what do we do?[/glow]

    the youth in my church, most of them know "our God is an awesome God" by heart..... but they couldn't recite Agios to save their lives.

    I feel like it's too late to do anything about it..... I called the high school servant in my church and I explained to him everything about the protestant songs..... and he told me "your friend brought up this idea, but we have to assimilate to the culture....."

    :(
  • [quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128326#msg128326 date=1296055111]
    Great..... So now that I know that I am not overreacting and this is an actual problem in a lot of churches..... [glow=red,2,300]what do we do?[/glow]

    the youth in my church, most of them know "our God is an awesome God" by heart..... but they couldn't recite Agios to save their lives.

    I feel like it's too late to do anything about it..... I called the high school servant in my church and I explained to him everything about the protestant songs..... and he told me "your friend brought up this idea, but we have to assimilate to the culture....."

    :(


    I am extremely glad that you are upset at this also. It makes my blood boil.

    I find the attitude of these "instigators" of protestantism SO ARROGANT!!

    Yet, when they speak, they act as if they are monks.

    Arrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh

    There is no humility in their behaviour.

    Abanoub - what Church do you go to??? Is it Stevenage or Saint mark's London? Because if this has spread, we are in serious problems
  • The head highschool sunday school leader said that we need to assimilate to the culture and keep singing these songs... My priest plays the guitar and his wife sings these songs... They made a band with the other youth... AHHHHHH WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN EVEN THE PRIESTS ENDORSE THIS IDEA?
  • East coast of the US, BTW the youth didn't start this the servants should up one day and said Hey lets sing some songs
  • Zoxasi- You're right it has spread... because I am in St. Mary in Maryland, USA

    And I am going to start walking out of class when they do this..... and if the servants are thick headed then I will have to try and explain my case to the youth.....I can't think of anything else to do :(

    and my church is always going to africa (i haven't personally and i wont)

    But when they came back everyone was dancing downstairs and singing in swahili!!!
  • Maybe I will write a general paper considering the issues across the Oriental Orthodox communion so that no one is singled out. But it does seem to me to be a serious matter.

    Father Peter
  • Actually, not to put any pressure on you Father, but we are still waiting for the paper on girls taking communion. :)
  • That would be so great!!!! I would love to read that paper!

    I'd also like to staple it to my servants head, but that's another story :D

    TITL- dont rush the man, he has a more important paper to write :D
  • First come, first serve. We've been waiting for that paper for 34 years now! Abanoub, stop giving Fr. Peter ideas; you're distracting him from what's important.
  • You see that I have to wrestle with God's will as well since I would wish to be able to dedicate all my time to these things, but at present God would seem to want me to do other work much of the time.

    Father Peter
  • Ok... so, which paper are you going to work on first?
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