Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.7K
- General Category 10.8K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 367
- Technical Topics 367
The Diaconate
I would rather give a small child a cross to hold or something non-flammable.
But there are canons about the different ages for each rank of service. And there are responsibilities.
What rank would you say that those who are very young in your Church are set apart for?
Father Peter
But there are canons about the different ages for each rank of service. And there are responsibilities.
What rank would you say that those who are very young in your Church are set apart for?
Father Peter
Comments
in order to be a deacon. Therefore, you would have to alteast be in grade 1 to start learning,
so only if there is a really smart kid, he would be a deacon by grade 3, and if he is smart,
I don't think he would burn the church down with a candle...
I honestly believe that it should be the same for all the coptic churches around the whole world.
God bless, and pray for me,
Cyril
There is a rank of Deacon, and it is the most senior and properly only those who have proved themselves to be humble, capable and obedient are called to it. The true and full Deacon is especially the right hand man of the priest. Someone he can depend on completely and utterly. May every priest have at least one such person.
If we used the proper names of these ranks we might perhaps be less confused in our thinking, and even more respectful and obedient to those with a higher rank. As most know, the ranks of the deacons are:
Deacon
Epideacon (Subdeacon)
Ognostis (Reader)
Epsaltos (Chanter)
There have also been Acolytes or Altar Servers.
I don't know what the general practice of other Coptic congregations is, but it seems to me, and it is our practice in the British Orthodox diocese, that younger boys would only be blessed to become Altar Servers, so that they can wear a tonia and serve according to their abilities.
As boys get older and are able to learn hymns and serve in the choir they can properly become Epsaltos.
But the ranks of Ognostis, Epideacon and Deacon should not easily be gained. It is interesting that HG Bishop Mattaous (and his book is a wonderful challenge to all who serve) says of the Ognostis...
i. Generally, not less than 18 years of age.
ii. Recognized for his good manner and deeds.
iii. Recommended (without objection) by the priest and congregation.
iv. Tested for his reading ability of the Holy Bible, and its comprehension.
v. Regular in his spiritual life, such as Confession, Holy Communion, reading of the Holy Bible and coming to church.
vi. He must be ready for service and full of zeal.
vii. He must be humble, and not one to boast about his voice or service.
and
It is very important that the reputation of the Ognostis be blameless, so that he may apply his words to his deeds, and not be the cause of a stumbling block. He must offer pure service, according to the example of Ezra the great writer.
The bishop (or archdeacon if present) reads to the Ognostis, the following commandments:
i. Learn chapter by chapter of the Holy Bible
ii. Read with understanding the Lord’s commandments
iii. Preach unto the people
iv. Your reputation must be pure, as a beacon giving light to all those around you, by your words and deeds.
Most of these requirements are spiritual and personal and require maturity and commitment. We might well ask ourselves if we are in this rank if we are living out the life that is required of us.
The requirements of the Epideacon are even more serious.
i. Unless he shows excellence in ecclesiastical subjects and wisdom, and faithful in his deeds, generally, the Epideacon should not be ordained younger than the age of 20.
ii. He must be recommended by the congregation and the (chorus) deacons.
iii. He must be known for his righteousness and faithful deeds.
iv. He must keep watch of the church doors to forbid the entry of heretics and false teachers.
v. He is responsible for organizing the seating in the church, that is, the place allocated for men, women, nuns, and so on.
vi. He is responsible for lighting the church lamps.
vii. He is responsible for keeping in order, the church books, and the priestly and servants vestments.
viii. He is responsible for preparing the censors
ix. He is responsible for helping the other deacons, and replacing them if necessary.
x. These responsibilities are additional to the responsibilities he had as an Ognostis. He must still fulfill the responsibilities of Ognostis, in case he needs to step into that role at any time.
I know that Ilovesaintmark often speaks of the condition of the altar area, and the censers etc, as being symptomatic of the condition of the diaconate. But we can see that if we took these responsibilities seriously then every altar would be spotless, every servant worshipping and serving with complete attention and devotion.
May we all be and become these type of servants. It is clear what these responsibilities demand of us. It is a dreadful thing to fail to live up to the ministry that is given us.
Father Peter
With those rules, you will eliminate all deacons except for 1 or 2 in each church. Some churches won't even have one.
I guess those bragging rights of "we have 400 ordained deacons at our church" will go by the wayside.
did H.G. Bishop Mattaous write anything about female deacons? ;)
How few of us are worthy to serve in the temple? We should at least be aware of the great honour and responsibility of having any position and name in the Church. But what are these names that we sometimes become so proud of? 'Servant' and 'assistant servant', and 'candle holder', and 'singer' and 'reader'.
If we only knew the glory that it is to be even a doorkeeper in the House of Lord?
How can servants jockey for position when their Lord is present in their midst?
It is perhaps better not to serve than to serve unworthily, without attention and with a prideful heart.
Thank God for quiet and humble servants, always watchful for their priest's hand, the subdeacons obedient to the deacons, the deacon the trusted right hand of the priest.
Father Peter
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=9833.0
but on a serious note...its very true what you wrote on there..sad but true...but I'm going with Fr. Peter on this one; none of us are worthy and one can only hope that God will use one of us toward the ministry of the church and the implementation of respect toward the house of God in youth's hearts.
God bless!
Personally I am not convinced that very young boys should be admitted to service in the altar, certainly not if there are a lot of them. It seems to me to detract from the proper nature of the liturgy, which is not to keep children occupied. In a smaller congregation with a few young boys under the strict control of serious older deacons of various ranks it works.
Service in the altar is not a human right, after all, it is a responsibility and an honour.
Father Peter
With other grown men deacons of various ranks it was possible to train them in service rather than just keep them occupied. And I guess that I don't want to be entirely negative of the thought of other small congregations allowing some few well behaved younger boys to serve as they are able. But there surely always needs a group of older, well disciplined deacons to teach the young ones by example.
One of the young boys was 8 years old when he was blessed to serve, and he was an Indian Orthodox who spoke little English but was keen to help. In the two years he was with us, before going back to India, it was remarkable to find him memorising huge sections of the liturgy. Both the two boys, and one was my own son, were very well controlled and attentive. If there were 10 boys of such an age and only 1 or 2 older deacons I do not believe it would work, nor if there were many teenage deacons messing about and not paying attention.
I consider this rather a special case than a precedent to bless all 7 year old boys to enter the altar.
Father Peter
Foul bucket contest or not, ilovesaintmark is by far THE funniest poster on tasbeha. Fact.
Sorry Zoxsasi.
Fr. Peter, I have never heard of Indian Orthodox. Are they Oriental or Eastern?
In regard to the deacons, I think let the girls take over, the guys have done a lousy job. [purely frustration speaking, not that I really mean it].
I think there should be a separate rank of: "Alhan Star". It would be the non-spiritual rank to satisfy the rock star mentality. It would probably be the largest represented rank in the church.
I served recently on a Sunday with a priest that I had never served with before. The priest did not say a single word in the whole Liturgy to me. He did not motion once to me. As a matter of fact the man rarely opened his eyes through the whole Liturgy. I would say his eyes were closed 80% of the time. At the end of the Liturgy he just said: God Bless you. I understood what he meant and that was that. I did my duty. I anticipated every aspect of his needs as a priest, and the rubrics were carried through to the letter according to the old old old traditions and not the ad hoc non-sense. Why was this possible? Not because I am a genius. It had to do with the fact that I was trained and disciplined by my priest as I was growing up. The rock star was not allowed. Heavy discipline, hard work, diligent service, and the "look" from my priest. He was my example in every regard. A father should not hesitate to discipline his children.
I'm sorry for sounding cynical . Quite frankly, I hope that the deacons of the British Orthodox Church do not interact with the Coptic "deacons" so that they do not learn the same: selfishness, negligence, ill-discipline, microphone hogging, and total mayhem in the Liturgy.
How many times does someone have to walk in and out of the altar?
How many times do you have to talk and ask the priest?
How many times do you have to talk to the dingbat next to you to ask how cool the next response should be?
How many times do you have to turn to look at the women so you can scope out the girl you have a crush?
How many times can a person look at his mobile phone, blackberry, or iPad?
Is it possible that someone can teach these young men to dress properly when coming to see the King of Kings?
Is it possible that someone can teach the concept of showering before coming to church?
How about washing your hands before you start touching the minor vessels of the altar?
Can someone explain to me why there is plastic covering on the altars? I will save everyone the answers, because the deacons are too lazy to keep the altar clean. They like to touch the altar with their hands. They love to throw 5-10 books on the altar because they can't follow without them.
How about leaning on the altar? Are these guys really that old that they need to use the altar table and columns as a crutch.
How about all those charcoal pot holes in the carpeting? Some people think it is cute to give a seven year old the censer to hold. Guess what: they drop it? I'm not really worried about the candles. I'm worried about the fire in the charcoal.
How about the ones that go into the altar and practice their responses as you are trying to say your prerparatory prayers? How about the ones that roll around on the ground?
Here's a really annoying one: when some slick older deacon lets his 3 or 4 year old son, who is ordained as an epsaltos, to hold the triangle and to rattle with it during the chants and in the silent times. IT IS SO CUTE. Maybe the kid will turn out just as slick as his father.
How about when the 5 year old deacon rushes through the royal doors at the priest who is standing at the altar facing the east and imploring God? If I didn't realize the kid was 5 years old, I would swear it was a terrorist trying to take down Abouna.
How about the deacon who pulled off a four letter curse in the microphone because he was upset that a deacon said a response in the altar, which he [the ultimate rites specialist] thought otherwise?
Shall I go on?
I've seen so much.
I know: just close your eyes and pray.
I am not a saint like the saints.
I need quiet to be able to pray.
Sorry for my rant, Father Peter. Every time this topic comes up, I have a rush of memories and experiences.
Just one more: How about the kid, who after saying his response in the altar, leaves the altar goes to his mother and asks for a high five to seal the issue?
1. Breathing
2. Able to talk
3. Male
4. Baptized
5. Know virtually nothing about Orthodoxy
i suggest we each choose some 'deacons' in our church to pray for every week by name so that God restores order to His church.
I also think that the ranks of deacons (psaltos,oghnostos especially) are handed out way to liberally. There should be hymns and church rites classes which should be compulsory to attend before ordination. Many times I have seen very young psaltos deacons who do not know any hymns,make noise and play during the liturgy and do not treat the rank with the correct respect it deserves. Or even oghnostos deacons who,forgive me, are not able to properly read the scriptures. Which is the main job of the reader. As HG Mettaious' book states, the reader should be able to read clearly and loudly and most importantly UNDERSTAND what he is reading in order for him to spread the word to the people. I hear some bishops who test the deacon prior to his ordination to accurately test whether he is able to progress.
I think that's brilliant to be honest! I think it's also worthy to note that being ordained and being allowed to serve in the holy of holies or simply wearing the deacon garment is a great honour and privilege and not a right, and in my opinion is deeply humbling.
PPFM
THE DEACONS ARE NOT INCLINED TOWARDS ANY SERVICE OR MINISTRY.
There are very few exceptions to this comment.
My issue is: the rites and the chants are the least of the issues.
THE DEACONS ARE NOT INCLINED TOWARDS ANY SERVICE OR MINISTRY.
There are very few exceptions to this comment.
thats why there must be a set of rules set by the Church itself for a "minumum requirement" for deacons. That is what they did in the New Testament!! we cant just let anyone and everyone be a deacon, there has to be some sort of filtering process. but this seems to be too much trouble for a lot of us Copts who dont want to be bothered.
Father Peter
Fr. Peter, what do you suggest exactly? How can we as an entire church(in Egypt and in the Diaspora) go back to this system? Re-instate it gradually? Or from now on just say this is how it is and deal with the enourmous headache from the parents of these "entitled" children?
Pray for me and my weakness
It starts with the bishops being firm.
The bishop is the only one that can ordain.
When I was ordained as a Reader, I got drilled. The questions were not: how many Sacraments? but rather, tell me your thoughts about the Sacraments? and several other pressing questions. I was nominated by my priest, and I received a certificate. To this day I cherish that paper. To this day I feel unworthy, and I try for as best that I can to live up to the precincts. So whether I'm a Reader, Sub-Deacon, Deacon, or even Archdeacon I owe my altar a certain regard and duty.
How about a pledge of allegiance to the altar?
But I agree entirely with ILSM. It begins with episcopal discipline, and then priestly discipline. It continues with our own self-discipline. And an overwhelming sense of the holiness of what we are engaged in.
When a school teacher says, 'Well I let the kids run riot so that they like me, or so that they don't tell their parents I am a bad teacher', then the school is doomed.
When I serve with my bishop I am careful to always be attentive. When I was serving with my own priest I was aware that my attentiveness mirrored my spiritual condition. As I grew more mature, thanks to God, I became more attentive through the entirety of the service. Part of this was a desire to be more completely the person I had been ordained to be, as a Reader and then as a Subdeacon.
So discipline. I guess. Having clear rules so that there is no sense of arbitrariness. No phones on in Church at all, for instance. You are not allowed them on in a cinema or theatre, and if meeting the President or Queen would not dare say, 'Hang on your Majesty, do you mind if I take this call?'. How much more should all our attention be on receiving the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
But if younger people do not see such an attitude in older deacons, and if it is not inculcated with a strict sense of discipline, then they will not appreciate what they are doing, and indeed the spiritual dangers that inattention places them in.
Father Peter
In the West we are essentially in a missionary situation. My own congregation cannot afford to pay me a wage, and we do not ask anything of the Mother Church, so the Church would shut if it were an absolute rule. I do not believe this is God's intent. Likewise, in a missionary situation, if the congregation is not large enough to support a priest then it will not be large enough to support a full deacon. But both of these are necessary to enable a congregation to grow so that it has the possibility of allowing ministers to concentrate all the energies on their ministries.
The Eritrean and Ethiopian communities here in the UK are reasonably large but not well off. Most of the priests also have to work. Otherwise they would obey a canon made for a different situation and not serve as priests so all of their congregations would close.
I think it would be if benefit in the missionary West to have dedicated and faithful men, even if they had to also work to support themselves, who were full deacons, and therefore had a hand in the management and leadership of the body of deacons - which is indeed their responsibility rather than something that the priest should be always burdened with. Those full deacons I have served with as a subdeacon have always been an inspiration, being both committed to the Church - even while having to earn a living - and also directing every aspect of the liturgy with attention and care so that the priest is never distracted.
Father Peter