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I need help, I think I lost faith
I have been so upset lately. Mainly about things that I have brought up in our church like convert issues and other classes to help people. I am completely ignored. When I bring certain things to people's attention, I am told that its not true. Even though I was directly told by someone in the church! I voiced that I was having trouble and it should have been obvious when I stood outside during the liturgy, or in the entrance anyways. Not a soul has even called to see if I was ok, or even emailed or texted. This was one of my major gripes against my fathers protestant church. He was like one of the main guys that did alot of things, when he got sick nobody cared. This is what is happening to me which now has me questioning. What is the point anymore? The COC seems content on doing as they please and not doing anything to help converts, yet I am told that I should not question because the clergy know more than I do LOL, that is why we have lost almost every single convert! And those who come seeking never come back because they cant understand anything!!!!!!!
I guess this is a cry for help because nobody in my church seems to care.
I guess this is a cry for help because nobody in my church seems to care.
Comments
You know we all love you. There are sometimes issues or situations of disagreement, plus these may happen at times when people are busier than usual. It does not mean nobody cares. You are highly valued as you are even though anyone would benefit of continual self improvement.
You have the guts to stand firm. My friendly advice to you would be to remember your faith given by God's Grace. Do not rely much on other humans till God allows it and fight these feelings of despair the devil is murmuring in your ear. Sometimes God allows these moods to help pulling us nearer to Him in newer and better ways.
Earlier, you expressed your desire to go to a good sister Church and that cannot be bad so I doubt if anyone would tell you to do otherwise. My only reproach is what you said about leaving your deacon responsibility. You should concentrate more on your salvation till things get better.
Take a break, kneel and pray, try to work on your pride by relaxing your judgmental attitude towards others. Like you said we must radiate our Father's love to all around us though nobody can do that continuously without a little relaxation.
First depend on the Lord Most High alone. He will send you His help in many ways on time. May He grant you peace, grace and the wisdom to understand and accept your cross and your gift with many thanks. His Will be done.
GBU
I do thank you very much for your advice. While I love being a Deacon I am not sure, atleast right now, that I can fulfill those duties. I hold this rank in high regard and do not take it lightly. I do not want to disgrace any rank in the church. Maybe something good will come from this, I hope a class for converts or atleast teaching about the church for adults. Maybe they can finally switch to one language and slow the liturgy down a bit. I dont know, just pray.
And yes, the devil is screaming in my ear. The worst part is that I feel him more than I feel God. As soon as I receive communion he is there and it is the hardest fight, right after communion.
The devil wants you to judge a persecuted Church, better try to avoid that.
You can attend your honorable deacon duties without even saying a word, just humble yourself in front of Him and He will accept your effort in serving His Holy Altar. It is a big responsibility yes but above all God is Love and Kindness.
GBU
1. God's people are living sinful lives.
2. Jeremiah gets sent to tell them they are going to die.
3. They hate him.
The end.
Jeremiah was not a particularly loved prophet because he bluntly told people the truth. He didn't cover up the facts with flowers and make it look like everything has a happy ending. He straight up took a clay pot and said "this is your life", then dropped it on the floor, breaking into hundreds of pieces, and said "this is your life without God". If we don't live our lives as God has designed then we are doomed for destruction.
Every book in the Bible has it's own "flavor" in our spiritual lives. Jeremiah's book is bitter to read; we don't like the words. It hurts.
"For though you wash yourself with lye, and use much soap,
Yet your iniquity is marked before Me,” says the Lord GOD.
23 “ How can you say, ‘I am not polluted,
I have not gone after the Baals’?
See your way in the valley;
Know what you have done:
You are a swift dromedary breaking loose in her ways,"
What I'm trying to say is, just like Israel, we also need someone to pinch us in our spiritual lives. It wakes us up and helps us realize our faults. That is exactly what YOU are doing! So what if no one likes you because you're blunt, rude, and insensitive. So was Jeremiah! ;)
It's a tough life, and taking the narrow gate isn't exactly the easiest route. You should have known that converting to Orthodoxy was going to result in hatred, rejection, and suffering... even from within the church.
Rejoice He says!
Loosing hope/faith is like training for years to fight a battle, getting to the battle field, then dropping your weapons in front of your enemies.
Here are the four theories behind it (taken from hgby's article on atheism)
-If you continue to live your life as you did before, accept rejection from within the church and continue to pray for wisdom and guidance, and you are RIGHT, you will receive eternal reward in heaven.
-If you continue to live your life as you did before, accept rejection from within the church and continue to pray for wisdom and guidance, and you are WRONG, then at worst all you have lost were a few pleasures in life.
-If you discontinue to live your life as you did, and that life is wrong, you will face eternal damnation.
-If that life is not wrong, and you discontinue to live your life as you did, then your sins will not be punished.
You either win everything or lose everything. You make the call.
I understand what your saying and in some senses I know I am right, I only side with truth and if I am wrong I recant my statements and or views. But I am not Jeremiah, I am not a prophet nor a saint. How can I tell a Sub-Deacon, Priest, or Bishop that they need to do this or that for converts? Or how can I tell them about protestant hymns in the church and why it is wrong? I was told no, your wrong the Bishops know more than you do. That is true in almost every sense of the word, but they clearly do not understand how the culture here works and that people are completely confused by the Liturgy, so using a language foreign to them just compounds their confusion, so they leave. This is why my dad left and decided not to be baptized, he could not understand anything, he loved it and the people but it made no sense to him. This is probably where the animosity stems from. I love my parents and Orthodoxy has been ruined because of sheer ignorance and an unwillingness to listen to others because "they know better". I am sorry but this is not true, they were not protestant, atleast most excluding Fr. Peter obviously.
So I am not sure but maybe I will just talk to them and speak like I speak here. Maybe I should stand up for myself for once. I just worry about being kicked out of church so I usually do things very quietly, maybe I shouldnt.
But I am not Jeremiah, I am not a prophet nor a saint.
Prophets are the easiest people to relate to.
Jeremiah felt affliction, bitterness, hardship. He was laughed at, mocked, rejected (by HIS PEOPLE). He lost hope in God. Probably went under depression. (I am getting this all from lamentations of jeremiah btw)
Same with David. If you read the psalms, you'll notice that half are depressing and the other half are cheerful. Kinda sounds like David was bipolar.
Moses led an angry mob for 40 years. He dealt with complaints, threats, and demands. He went up to a mount to get rules and came back and not ONE person (not even aaron the priest) still had faith in God. Depressed? Oh yeah.
Noah spent 120 years building an ark for land that has never gotten rain! That beats any other prophet's depression in my opinion.
They're ordinary people with feelings that got hurt for living godly lives.
You should definitely speak up in church as you do here. If they don't agree protestant hymns are wrong then get in touch with a bishop in your area and ask for his opinion. If he agrees protestant ways/songs are appropriate in an Orthodox environment, then I will convert with you. kay?
I just emailed HGBY asking for his opinion regarding protestant songs in Orthodox communities. I'll copy his response once he replies.
I get approached by many people asking for information and support in their investigation of Orthodoxy, and God has not given me the resources to help everyone as much as they would always want. But I do believe that a priest has a particular relationship with those who are in the flock for which he has been placed as shepherd, and as a priest I believe I should be very concerned for the well-being of all those in such a close relationship with me.
We have just started a monthly Bible Study in my own congregation because of this very reason that we need to have spiritual nourishment and we need to gather together in a spiritual environment where we can discuss our faith. So I do understand where you are coming from.
Are there other English speakers in your congregation? Is it possible to see if the priest would celebrate a week day liturgy in English even if the Sunday one is in Arabic? Would he support a monthly English language Bible Study and Prayers meeting? What is the composition of your congregation? Is there a continuing influx of Arabic speaking immigrants or are there numbers of second generation American-Copts?
Father Peter
GBU
I am deeply pained by your post, because I cannot head to you and hang out and just talk. I know how difficult it is to talk out loud and no one listens, how painful the sting of the word is. The Coptic Church only has so many parishes in a given geographical location so I cannot tell you to try another locale.
I will not repeat from the posts of Fr. Peter, John, or TITL, but rather I will add from my own experience in that when I have had difficulty dealing with the peer and adult range, I head for the children and elderly. Those two expanses in the range of life have much to show and teach.
The children--freedom from pretenses and falsehoods; innocence to see and appreciate; delightfulness in playfulness.
The elderly--freedom from pretenses and falsehoods; innocence to see and appreciate; delightfulness in experiences and memories.
Some of my most rewarding times have been in serving and helping these two groups, and in turn, they have taught me patience and beauty in life, and that God radiates His Presence through such innocence. I've organized trips and taken people out for food or even just to walk and talk.
The human being is really funny. God only created one prototype. We have a tendency to try to silence out the obvious and true, because it is difficult to face.
I have struggled with issues relating to the Church in the United States, the very same that you expound. I have banged my head against the wall, and I have cried. I have called on God from the depths of my heart. He hears me, and He gives me examples and presence that there are still good people, good things, and that there is Supreme Beauty in the Coptic Church.
I was sharing with Zoxsasi in a PM my admiration, my deep admiration for a particular convert to the Orthodox Church. He has given so much to this website, and has given counsel and support to all of us. He has passed on time or priority of his own life in exchange for guiding all of us and tempering our spirits and thoughts. In a way we have all voiced an "orphan's" voice that sometimes no one hears us, and in an electronic way God sent us this one person to shepherd us and answer our questions. I tell you Ioannes, that you should not be looking on the local front necessarily. You do have guidance on this site, with love, and paternity from the Church. I will tell you that for those of us that are born into the Orthodox Church, we take this for granted. For those who have sought out Orthodoxy, find it, cherish it, and hold onto it are even more blessed. They are our example for they cherish Her as a rare and beautiful Bride. I wish I had the constant vigilant zeal of these converts, and in particular this one. His approach for scholarly comment rather than abject emotion underscore fusion with the Divine Will and the Hope of the Resurrection. I, myself, have learned and been convinced that where there is Hope in God's Will, only Grace and Truth will reign thereafter.
I look at myself and reflect about all of the difficulties and I look at a fellow man, in the form of His Holiness, and the tremendous onslaught to his person and the Church. My issues become irrelevant and trivial. My brother has a tendency to repeat to me certain comments: 'Do you really think that you are so special that you are not going to be spit on, insulted, cursed, betrayed, and outright disdained? You do realize that our Master endured all of that. You should count yourself fortunate that you are being given the same honors as Him. You are being given the chance to show your faith. You are being given a chance for the ultimate reward. Because you are showing signs of success, the devil is specifically targeting you. He[the Devil] wants your soul. Do not give it to him [the Devil].'
I cannot give you many answers, but I have tried to share some of my inmost thoughts and emotions. I really like your spunk and forthrightness. I also am honored to share the same Faith as you. Although we are separated by distance and even identity, we share fellowship and fraternity in the Words of Our Lord.
Bless God. Bless His priests, that they may carry out their fatherhood for all of our sakes. Count yourself fortunate to be in the presence of one, on this site, who cares about all of us and the Orthodox Church (at whole).
I usually do not like to show this side of me. I tend to like my snipes and nipping comments with a little teasing flare.
I have a feeling that Zoxsasi is going to fire up the guitar and start singing Kumbaya after reading this post.
Be well Ioannes, enjoy God's Love and Presence. He paid a huge price for us to see It and appreciate It.
the other posts were so good and said what i would have said if i had had time to look at the computer.
we all have spiritual battles and difficult days, i also had that sometimes, but God sends the messages of hope, and He is powerful and the creator of the universe.
especially i liked i love saint mark's last post.
he's a cool dude :)
ephesians 6 says 'after having done all to stand, stand. stand firm then'.
sometimes we are not expected to advance or grow, just to stand firm and call out to God.
then later at another time, we will be able to grow.
glory be to our God forever, amen.
:)
John, I do not think I have hope with my parents. With protestants, especially my mother, they look for any little reason to discredit Catholic and Orthodox. Because of them not knowing what was going on AND not even understanding the language, regardless of the translation, it was a big turn off. My dad really did try and I do think he really loved, maybe still loves, Orthodoxy. When I saw him start falling asleep and not really caring I knew it was over. He went back to protestantism because he can understand it, and it is simple. Orthodoxy needs explanation to those who are not familiar with it, and they dont seem to understand this.
Anyways thank you all, you have lifted my spirits. Maybe I should be me more, maybe I should share exactly what I am feeling with conviction. I am not sure really how to be so I can be taken seriously. I think since everyone knows I am manic depressive they have distanced themselves, this is my opinion anyways, and this is certainly why I am not taken seriously.
Thanks everyone.
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the LORD! (Psalms 27:14)
Ioannes, you are full of zeal and love for the Lord, and this is easily shown by the wealth of your knowledge, and through your very helpful posts. Even if noone else cares, remember we all care, and there is one who cares far beyond what it is humanly possible. Keep faith in God, and remember that he is always there for you to lean on.
A Priest visited my home yesterday and told something very nice. He took a piece of cotton put in oil, and another piece outside of the oil. He lit the one outside and it burned up, and when he lit the one in the oil, the flame lit on top of it as if it was a candle. He told me that the oil represents the church, and the flame represents troubles. He who is in the church, when trouble comes it just makes him shine, while he outside crumbles when trouble comes.
I also told him, about how I'm isolated from everyone, and have very few friends, as I moved 2 hours away from church. He told me simply: "When God wants someone great or someone special he isolates him, just as he did with Moses, and there God is the only one to lean on".
Also Fr. Tadros Malaty visited my church a while back and told a story (this is super sumarized) of a kid whose dad would hit his mom and was very hostile and did not take communion etc. Fr. Tadros told him to pray for his dad while doing everything (e.g. when taking communion that his dad may enjoy the same etc.). He said that within a week he came in and his dad was changed and became a great servant in the Church. Many people have been brought to God, after a long time of constant prayer from a family member or friend.
Thank you all
If He doesn't come, then take up a hobby and wait until He does come. You've done everything you could for other people. You owe it to yourself now to enjoy life a bit.
1 Corinthians 10
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
I'm sure you read this good book "Holy Zeal" by HH Pope Shenouda III:
http://www.copticpope.org/books/holyzeal.pdf or
http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/HOLY ZEAL - HH Pope Shenouda III.pdf
I have a suggestion for you, why not select some English audio CO sermons (by Bishops or Fr TY Malaty for ex.) for your father to listen at home when he likes to help him become gradually acquainted with Coptic Orthodoxy and its teaching? Also pray to God that he gets more interested.
You can start by choosing sermons discussing or explaining Bible verses, the sacraments and later have a CO liturgy in English, etc. You can also use video especially for liturgy and explain things to him while you watch parts of it together... He will understand the Apostolic Orthodox spiritual teaching style and feel the deep edifying approach, plus sermons usually contain many sayings of the Fathers. Leave it totally in the hands of the Lord, i.e. do not worry or force things.
GBU
I have a small suggestion:
"Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis
It's a really good book, it takes on a different perspective. It's basically a senior devil writing to junior devil a series of letters on how to make the human he is assigned (which had just converted to christianity) fall and stubble.
In one of the letters i think (just of the top of head), the Screwtape (the senior devil) tell the junior devil to make the man feel as though no in his church care for him.
God be with u always.
Pray for my weak self.
We need to check on two things: the lyrics and the type of music. If the lyrics and the music match the spirit of the Orthodox Church, there is nothing wrong in using these songs.
God bless you
Bishop Youssef
...but your Grace, they DONT match the spirit of the Orthodox Church ;) I think we got our answer Ioannes. No.
Thank you for the suggestion, while I like the idea C.S. Lewis puts forth I was not much of a fan of that book. I do however like a similar book written long before that called "Paradise Lost" by John Milton. There is some theology that I do not agree with, but the idea is amazing. Perhaps you have seen the movie the crow, if you have then you have heard Paradise Lost being read..."Abashed the devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is."