Why Did Christ Die for Us?

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Can someone explain to me why Christ came to die for us?

Why exactly was His death necessary for us to receive salvation? Why couldnt we keep on sacrificing animals?

What is the importance of Baptism and Holy Communion in the plan of Salvation? Why do we need to have faith in order to be saved?


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Comments

  • Very good questions Qt, from what I've learned to answer your first question is that because these animals where only meant for temporary remission of sins and a prototype for Christ Himself. Because the punishment of sin was death, death was required, so the animals would die on our behalf. However, these animals could not atone for all the sins of the world since they themselves are finite creatures as are we. Christ was Perfect God and Perfect Human. No fault was found in Him. So He was the only One that could carry all of our sins, from the ones that were committed to the ones that will be committed until the end of time. Someone with infinite characteristics was the only one that could save the entire human race. If He was mearly a man, He Himself would have needed salvation and could not atone for anyone else's sins let alone His own weakness!

    As for baptism and Holy Communion these sacraments were instituted by the Lord Himself, Baptism to wash away our corruption and Holy communion to unite us with the Lord Himself! I think the faith question answers itself, i don't see how you can be saved without having the faith in being saved in and of itself?

    God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7812.msg101594#msg101594 date=1239060199]
    Very good questions Qt, from what I've learned to answer your first question is that because these animals where only meant for temporary remission of sins and a prototype for Christ Himself. Because the punishment of sin was death, death was required, so the animals would die on our behalf. However, these animals could not atone for all the sins of the world since they themselves are finite creatures as are we. Christ was Perfect God and Perfect Human. No fault was found in Him. So He was the only One that could carry all of our sins, from the ones that were committed to the ones that will be committed until the end of time. Someone with infinite characteristics was the only one that could save the entire human race. If He was mearly a man, He Himself would have needed salvation and could not atone for anyone else's sins let alone His own weakness!

    As for baptism and Holy Communion these sacraments were instituted by the Lord Himself, Baptism to wash away our corruption and Holy communion to unite us with the Lord Himself! I think the faith question answers itself, i don't see how you can be saved without having the faith in being saved in and of itself?

    God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness


    But why do we need baptism? Why on earth couldnt it be without baptism? What exactly is the importance of baptism? Khallas.. Christ died for us, so why now do we need to get baptised?

    If animal sacrifices were temporary, then why were they ever instituted? Why even were they symbols? What for?

    If they were temporary, then surely we could live without that.

    But if death was required, why the Cross? Why didnt Christ just die naturally? Why did He need to go through the pain of death on the cross??? He could have died of old age.
  • These are questions that only God can answer, He instituted them Himself, If He instituted them, surely they are of great importance. If you remember in Genesis, God "covered" Adam and Eve with animal skin, How did He get that animal skin? He killed one and took its skin and "covered" their nakedness which was the first sacrifice on behalf to remit their sins. But again, since God required death, it was the animals instead of us, and since they are still finite they cannot atone for all sins. I'm not a theologian so I'm sure Father Peter can answer you better than I can
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7812.msg101597#msg101597 date=1239061502]
    These are questions that only God can answer, He instituted them Himself, If He instituted them, surely they are of great importance. If you remember in Genesis, God "covered" Adam and Eve with animal skin, How did He get that animal skin? He killed one and took its skin and "covered" their nakedness which was the first sacrifice on behalf to remit their sins. But again, since God required death, it was the animals instead of us, and since they are still finite they cannot atone for all sins. I'm not a theologian so I'm sure Father Peter can answer you better than I can


    So you don't know why?

    Anyway, why did the Father require death from His Son? Why did the Father insist on the cross as the form of death? What was the reason behind that?

    How does Christ's death help us out exactly???
  • I believe the best way to get your questions answered is to read St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word.

    However, if you are looking for a quicker/briefer answer:

    Animal sacrifices were instituted to give us, the human beings, an idea that we were sinful. The result of this sin is death. Due to his infinite mercy, God did not demand that all of us die. Rather, he decided to come down and die instead of us "in the fullness of time." The Logos knew that He had to be crucified even before the creation of Adam and Eve, because of His foreknowledge of their sin. Thus, the animal sacrifices were instituted to prepare humankind to accept the true and ultimate sacrifice, the Incarnate Logos. If you read the five books of Moses (mostly Leviticus) you will see that all of the practices of the sacrifices point to our Lord one way or another.

    Christ did not die "naturally" because there was a certain curse He had to carry. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 reads, "If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse." I assume that is self explanatory.

    Christ's death "helps" us out because it atones for all of our sins, if we are faithful. Instead of demanding our death, which would be the normal result, He came and died instead of us. When we are baptized, we metaphorically die and rise again with Christ, which is how we share in this redemption. This death and resurrection with Christ is necessary.

    Once again, if you would like an in- depth explanation of the essence of this topic, St. Athanasius is the ultimate expert.
  • Thanks Christ4Life,

    Its been ages since anyone has seen you.

    I hope you are well.
  • ok this might help your answer about baptizm
    .....
    when we are born, thanks to Adam we carry the sin that he committed
    at first adam and eve were naked.. he did not know he was naked....
    but when he ate the apple  he felt guilty and god revealed himself to adam
    ..... Adam then realized that God can see him
    so from shame he covered himself..... and the sin made him realize he was naked
    before  we are babtized we carry that sin so to be pure from sin abouna
    takes our cloths off to be naked
    and dips our body in the holy water three times that we die and begin a new life with christ
    .......
    our babtizm..... is were the holy spirt enters our soul
    do you know if Abouna left you in the water of the mamoudeya you will not Drown because the holy spirit is present
    and the holy spirit gives life .... it dosnet take it.....
    Also when you are baptized you are stamped
    with the seal of the lord
    ...
    in the old testemant the stamp was circumsition....
    and with crhristians our stamp is baptizm
    when we enter our path of death
    the angels will know us from our seals or our stamps
  • one of the reasons i learnt today about why christ died for us
    was to rescue the righteous so to speak who were in hades
    before christ everyone that died went straight to hades but when christ died he opened up the heavens and all those deserving to go there were taken from hades and now we wait for the judgment day where we go to paradise

    i hope that makes sense
  • [quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=7812.msg101604#msg101604 date=1239069016]
    I believe the best way to get your questions answered is to read St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word.

    However, if you are looking for a quicker/briefer answer:

    Animal sacrifices were instituted to give us, the human beings, an idea that we were sinful. The result of this sin is death. Due to his infinite mercy, God did not demand that all of us die. Rather, he decided to come down and die instead of us "in the fullness of time." The Logos knew that He had to be crucified even before the creation of Adam and Eve, because of His foreknowledge of their sin. Thus, the animal sacrifices were instituted to prepare humankind to accept the true and ultimate sacrifice, the Incarnate Logos. If you read the five books of Moses (mostly Leviticus) you will see that all of the practices of the sacrifices point to our Lord one way or another.

    Christ did not die "naturally" because there was a certain curse He had to carry. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 reads, "If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse." I assume that is self explanatory.

    Christ's death "helps" us out because it atones for all of our sins, if we are faithful. Instead of demanding our death, which would be the normal result, He came and died instead of us. When we are baptized, we metaphorically die and rise again with Christ, which is how we share in this redemption. This death and resurrection with Christ is necessary.

    Once again, if you would like an in- depth explanation of the essence of this topic, St. Athanasius is the ultimate expert.


    St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word., where can i find the whole book in english?!
  • [quote author=kerestina link=topic=7812.msg101614#msg101614 date=1239098682]
    one of the reasons i learnt today about why christ died for us
    was to rescue the righteous so to speak who were in hades
    before christ everyone that died went straight to hades but when christ died he opened up the heavens and all those deserving to go there were taken from hades and now we wait for the judgment day where we go to paradise

    i hope that makes sense


    Yes, OK.. but HOW does His death rescue those from Hades?
    Why did He have to die to rescue them from hades? Surely He could have just emersed His Mighty hand and grabbed them out of there??
  • God is both merciful and righteous.

    We have sinned and we are dead in our sins. This is just. Adam was warned and he chose to disobey. He preferred to gratify himself rather than to enjoy the glory of God.

    God will not exercise His mercy apart from His righteousness, nor will He exercise His righteous judgement without being merciful.

    As has been said, the Word of God Himself died with us and for us, and by entering into the death which was our just desert He freed us from its power. Death by death is trampled down.

    Could there have been another way? Only God knows. This is how He chose to show His love for us and preserve the glory of His righteousness. The Fathers seem agreed that a way was required which allowed God to be both merciful and just, and also a way which allowed man, the cause of death, as God become man to restore man to life.

    Father Peter
  • It's exactly as Father Peter said.

    I was always taught that to really see this, we would make a list of the ONE who have certain characteristics to come and save man. those all are only possible with the Son, the second Hypostasis of the Trinity.
  • [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7812.msg101622#msg101622 date=1239114346]
    As has been said, the Word of God Himself died with us and for us, and by entering into the death which was our just desert He freed us from its power. Death by death is trampled down.


    Hi.

    This is exactly where I wanted to arrive at: How does the Divine nature, with the Human Nature (united) free us from the power of death? How?
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7812.msg101624#msg101624 date=1239115963]
    [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7812.msg101622#msg101622 date=1239114346]
    As has been said, the Word of God Himself died with us and for us, and by entering into the death which was our just desert He freed us from its power. Death by death is trampled down.


    Hi.

    This is exactly where I wanted to arrive at: How does the Divine nature, with the Human Nature (united) free us from the power of death? How?



    well it's one of the things that the Messiah needs to be. To be human, because a human sinned a humans have to be punished. and then He also have to be a person who have the power to overcome the death that was the consequence of His sins (not that HE sinned, but He carried our sin).
  • The 'how' is not for us to know, in an essential sense. We just need to be silent before the mystery.

    But in general we can say that as the New Testament writers teach, there are several aspects:

    i. The punishment due for our sins has been borne by another, by the Word, and so we are not punished

    ii. The death we deserved has been endured by one who is life.

    iii. When we are united with Christ, in baptism and by the spiritual life, we die with him, and since we die in Christ we are no longer a living person due to be punished

    iv. When we rise to life in Christ, partially at first, in baptism, then we are a new person and the death we were due belongs to the old person we no longer are.

    v. Christ has endured the state of death we were plunged into by Adam, he has endured the punishment due to our sin, and he has renewed human nature by his resurrection.

    vi. We experience this freedom from death because we are united to Christ, this is why life is living for and in God. Christ is our life. We are hid in Christ. We do not exist as rebellious sinner living in darkness. We now belong to the family of Christ.

    vii. Christ does it all on our behalf. We just have to experience it for ourselves by faith and by being united to Christ. He becomes the Second Adam, a second start for humanity. In him we have life, on our own we are still lost in darkness.

    How does it actually happen? I don't know. But the things I have written above seem to me to be described in the Scriptures.

    Father Peter
  • Wishing you all a blessed Feast of the Annunciation!

    I agree with Christ4Life, you should take a look at St. Athanasius’ book “On the Incarnation.” It answers all the questions you’ve asked, and it’s available online at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation/formats/On_the_Incarnation.pdf.

    This is exactly where I wanted to arrive at: How does the Divine nature, with the Human Nature (united) free us from the power of death? How?

    Since the human nature had fallen, that meant it had to be restored. He was the only one that could restore it…

    “The Word perceived that corruption could not be got rid of otherwise
    than through death; yet He Himself, as the Word, being immortal and the
    Father’s Son, was such as could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed
    a body capable of death, in order that it, through belonging to the Word Who
    is above all, might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself
    remaining incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to
    corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It was by
    surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice
    free from every stain, that He forthwith abolished death for His human brethren
    by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Word of God was above
    all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for
    the life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required. Naturally also, through
    this union of the immortal Son of God with our human nature, all men were
    clothed with incorruption in the promise of the resurrection. For the solidarity
    of mankind is such that, by virtue of the Word’s indwelling in a single human
    body, the corruption which goes with death has lost its power over all. You
    know how it is when some great king enters a large city and dwells in one of its
    houses; because of his dwelling in that single house, the whole city is honored,
    and enemies and robbers cease to molest it. Even so is it with the King of all;
    He has come into our country and dwelt in one body amidst the many, and in
    consequence the designs of the enemy against mankind have been foiled and the
    corruption of death, which formerly held them in its power, has simply ceased
    to be. For the human race would have perished utterly had not the Lord and
    Savior of all the Son of God, come among us to put an end to death.”

    (Taken from ‘On the Incarnation’, chapter two: ‘The Divine Dilemma,’ paragraph 9)

    Hope that helped.

    Please pray for me,
    Mansour89

  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7812.msg101620#msg101620 date=1239112460]
    Here you go mina http://www.coepa.org/tNG/cnt_download.php?id=261&dname=Download2tNG/cnt_download.php?id=261&dname=Download2


    Sorry for bothering you jydeacon, but can you fix that link, I think its broken. Thanks!

    And QT_PA_2T, to answer your question about why God couldnt just die from old age, I just wanted to add that God came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.. and dying from old age isn't sacrificing his life for us.




  • But why was a sacrifice needed?

    Why not just live and let live?
  • lol, I didn't know there was a second page to this topic, sorry! And thanks Mansour89 for reposting that link up!

  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7812.msg101637#msg101637 date=1239130031]
    But why was a sacrifice needed?

    Why not just live and let live?


    hmmmm, what do you mean by "live and let live"?? ya3ny detail the question a little....

  • Mortality is not the real death we suffer from. We are created mortal by God. The death that we should fear is separation from God and the absence of the Holy Spirit.

    Christ could not (as far as we dare say what God could and could not do) die simply from old age. That is just part of being human. He needed to die undeserved death as a punishment, and so he was hung on the cross between two thieves and died an accursed death - for cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree.

    It is the aspect of an undeserved death which is important. Of suffering under the curse without personal sin.

    Humanity is mortal by nature, that is not real death. Real death is separation from real life - which is the Word.

    Father Peter
  • Live and let live is not really an option because we were dead by sin!
  • OK, can someone just summarise (in a few lines) without getting too philosophical, as to why Christ had to die on the cross? Why was such an act of death and punishment on an innocent man required to qualify us for eternal life?

    The one who answers in the LEAST amount of words wins.
  • Lol QT_PA_2T, I'll try and answer in short, but I'm still going to post a long paragraph that you may or may not choose to read (read the bolded parts).

    My understanding is that Christ could not simply die of old age because aging is a sign of corruption. Again, there are a few reasons that St. Athanasius states in his book of why Christ had to be crucified.

    “Well then,” some people may say, “if the essential thing was that He should
    surrender His body to death in place of all, why did He not do so as Man
    privately, without going to the length of public crucifixion? Surely it would
    have been more suitable for Him to have laid aside His body with honor than
    to endure so shameful a death.” But look at this argument closely, and see
    how merely human it is, whereas what the Savior did was truly divine and
    worthy of His Godhead for several reasons. The first is this. The death of men
    under ordinary circumstances is the result of their natural weakness. They are
    essentially impermanent, so after a time they fall ill and when worn out they
    die.
    But the Lord is not like that. He is not weak, He is the Power of God and
    Word of God and Very Life Itself. If He had died quietly in His bed like other
    men it would have looked as if He did so in accordance with His nature, and as
    though He was indeed no more than other men
    . But because He was Himself
    Word and Life and Power His body was made strong, and because the death
    had to be accomplished, He took the occasion of perfecting His sacrifice not
    from Himself, but from others.
    How could He fall sick, Who had healed others?
    Or how could that body weaken and fail by means of which others are made
    strong? Here, again, you may say, ”Why did He not prevent death, as He did
    sickness?” Because it was precisely in order to be able to die that He had taken
    a body, and to prevent the death would have been to impede the resurrection.
    And as to the unsuitability of sickness for His body, as arguing weakness, you
    may say, ”Did He then not hunger?” Yes, He hungered, because that was
    the property of His body, but He did not die of hunger because He Whose body
    hungered was the Lord. Similarly, though He died to ransom all, He did not
    see corruption. His body rose in perfect soundness, for it was the body of none
    other than the Life Himself.”

    (‘On the Incarnation,’ Chapter 4: ‘The Death of Christ,’ paragraph 21)

    He died at the hands of men because this action showed no limitation to the Word. St. Athanasius uses an analogy with a wrestler...

    A generous wrestler, virile and strong, does not himself choose his
    antagonists, lest it should be thought that of some of them he is afraid. Rather,
    he lets the spectators choose them, and that all the more if these are hostile, so
    that he may overthrow whomsoever they match against him and thus vindicate
    his superior strength. Even so was it with Christ.

    (‘On the Incarnation,’ Chapter 4: ‘The Death of Christ,’ paragraph 24)

    Honestly, it's hard not to get wordy, but I think St. Athanasius really describes it best. Sorry for having a long answer haha... definitely lost that contest.

    Pray for me,
    Mansour89

  • Dear QT,

    You really do need to take the time to read St Athanasius. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you really will benefit in lots of ways by reading St Athanasius carefully.

    If the question is important then it demands some effort to receive an answer.

    Take an evening and read the book then let us know what other questions you have about the subject.

    Father Peter
  • [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7812.msg101647#msg101647 date=1239136916]
    Dear QT,

    You really do need to take the time to read St Athanasius. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you really will benefit in lots of ways by reading St Athanasius carefully.

    If the question is important then it demands some effort to receive an answer.

    Take an evening and read the book then let us know what other questions you have about the subject.

    Father Peter


    Fr. Peter,

    I think it would be great if you could summarise St Athanasious' writings in a short paragraph? No?
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7812.msg101650#msg101650 date=1239140510]
    [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7812.msg101647#msg101647 date=1239136916]
    Dear QT,

    You really do need to take the time to read St Athanasius. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you really will benefit in lots of ways by reading St Athanasius carefully.

    If the question is important then it demands some effort to receive an answer.

    Take an evening and read the book then let us know what other questions you have about the subject.

    Father Peter


    Fr. Peter,

    I think it would be great if you could summarise St Athanasious' writings in a short paragraph? No?



    Honestly, if anyone could summarize St. Anthasius' writings in a short paragraph that would mean one of two things. Either that person inadequately described the saint's writings, or St. Athanasius described the topic inadequately. Certainly St. Athanasius did not, by any means whatsoever, explain the topic inadequately. That leaves no option but for you to actually read the book. Trust me, it helps in many ways more than one.

    And thanks for welcoming me back, I've actually been lingering around for a while.
  • Guys,

    we all know what the problem is... don't we?

    But no one here wants to admit it.

    OK.. im ok with that.. but I'll just say it. The topic on atonement is still bothering me.

    I need closure on this issue.

    I don't want to post the video links on here, but those of you that have seen the YOUTUBE videos on "DIVINE JUSTICE" would know what I'm talking about.

    Its bothering me.

    Yes, I've read St Athanasios (and we read it the hard way... from Iqbal!).. its still quite confusing.I think the problem starts when one starts reading.
  • Can you please state your concern again clearly and phrase it into a single, rational thought? This might be the first step towards redirecting this small catastrophe of a thread.
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