Al El Korban

hbjameen

Hey guys. I recall someone telling me that we are suppose to say Al El Korban on the Pentacost instead of the 41 Lord Have Mercies.

Is this true, and if it is does anyone know the significance behind this?

Thanks a lot and God bless.

geomike

Yes it is true.

I don't know the significance

Christforlife7

The hours of the Agpeya aren't prayed this day, since the Third Hour is saved for the Liturgy as is the rite of the Pentecost. So instead, Al el Korban is said since it would normally come after the Kirie Eleysons anyway.

Hope I helped, and a blessed Feast of the Pentecost to everyone :)

minatasgeel

Guys....the hours of agpeya are STILL prayed. the psalms of the third hours ARE READ but not the gospel or the litanies. then the sixth hour is prayed fully and then the service is normal. the 41 kerie leison are still said and after is Alli El-orban.

The only time that Alli el-orban is said, replacing the Kerie Leison, is when there is no agpeya hours to pray and there is a procession of the lamb that includes a hymn like eporo, ekhrestos, evlogimenos. Meaning that is only done on the 3 ultimate major feasts.

Christforlife7

I agree that the Psalms of the Third are prayed, but are you positive that the Sixth hour is prayed? How can we pray the sixth if we didn't finish the Third? And I've checked two sources, and neither mentioned the sixth hour? It would be great if we could clear this up before tomorrow. Thanks everyone, and pray for me :)

jydeacon

These are the rites:
As for the Divine Liturgy of the Feast of the Pentecost, it begins with the Agpeya prayer of the Third Hour only, followed by the Gospel, but without praying the litanies. The Lamb is offered while the congregation chants [coptic]Kuri`e `eleycon[/coptic] 41 times, then prays the Trisagion, and chants the Offering's Alleluia hymn (Alle el-qorban) if there is enough time. The hymn of[coptic] `Allyloui`a @ vai pe pi[/coptic] is chanted, and after the Absolution of the Servants the hymns of [coptic]Tai soury[/coptic] and the[coptic] Hiten[/coptic] are chanted as in the Feasts of the Resurrection and the Ascension. The Praxis Response of the Feast of the Pentecost is chanted, followed by the Praxis reading. Then the litanies of the Third Hour from the Agpeya are prayed in Coptic and/or Arabic, followed by the hymn of the descent of the Holy Spirit, [coptic]Pi`pneuma[/coptic] . The Synexarium is not read, but the Trisagion hymn is chanted in a joyful tune in the same way as in the Feast of the Ascension. After the Litany of the Gospel, the Psalm is chanted in its major Sengary tune, followed by the Psalm Response. The reading of the Gospel is followed by its Response for the feast. The Divine Liturgy continues as in the joyful days with the addition of what is appropriate from the Adam Espasmos and Watos Espasmos. During communion, Psalm 150 is chanted in a joyful tune, which is followed by the hymn [coptic]Acwmen[/coptic] . In the conclusion, the Concluding Canon of the Feast of the Pentecost is chanted.

Taken from the rites of Albeirs Khedmit el shamas: http://copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=346

Pray for me

hbjameen

So to answer my question, I'm supposing that we proceed with the 41 Lord Have Mercies as usual and then following we would sing Al El Korban? A few people have said opposing things. Just want to clarify.

Thanks

minatasgeel

Yeah. I was wrong about that part.
only the psalms and gospel of the 3rd hour are prayed.
the sixth hour is prayed before the sagda.

ophadece

[quote author=minagir link=topic=9261.msg114675#msg114675 date=1274546814]
The only time that Alli el-orban is said, replacing the Kerie Leison, is when there is no agpeya hours to pray and there is a procession of the lamb that includes a hymn like eporo, ekhrestos, evlogimenos. Meaning that is only done on the 3 ultimate major feasts.

Dear Mina,
It seems too much discussion on forums messed up your mind :-). I believe the strictly correct ritual is there are no [coptic]Kurie ele ycon [/coptic]at all. It should only be [coptic]allylouia [/coptic]oblations or [coptic]abinau sopi [/coptic] in their respective ceremonials, but for obvious reasons that not many people know either, so the easier option is... you guessed it [coptic]kurie ele ycon[/coptic]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=9261.msg114683#msg114683 date=1274550727]
These are the rites:
The Lamb is offered while the congregation chants [coptic]Kuri`e `eleycon[/coptic] 41 times, then prays the Trisagion, and chants the Offering's Alleluia hymn (Alle el-qorban) if there is enough time. The hymn of[coptic] `Allyloui`a @ vai pe pi[/coptic] is chanted,

Dear jydeacon and all,
This is the kind of thing I am talking about. When things are done in haste, even those we consider very credible and authentic make basic mistakes and we simply should not follow. I never heard the trisagion being said after the 41 [coptic]kurie ele ycon [/coptic]irrespective of the latter being strictly speaking a wrong practice as I mentioned above. I guess Albair or whoever edited this part of the book on his behalf translated the words "quddos" into trisagion in a hurry, not paying heed that it refers to Holy Holy Holy Lord of hosts (or the Sabbaoth), which is a totally different piece than the trisagion of course.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

abanoub2000

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=9261.msg114714#msg114714 date=1274651496]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9261.msg114675#msg114675 date=1274546814]
The only time that Alli el-orban is said, replacing the Kerie Leison, is when there is no agpeya hours to pray and there is a procession of the lamb that includes a hymn like eporo, ekhrestos, evlogimenos. Meaning that is only done on the 3 ultimate major feasts.

Dear Mina,
It seems too much discussion on forums messed up your mind :-). I believe the strictly correct ritual is there are no [coptic]Kurie ele ycon [/coptic]at all. It should only be [coptic]allylouia [/coptic]oblations or [coptic]abinau sopi [/coptic] in their respective ceremonials, but for obvious reasons that not many people know either, so the easier option is... you guessed it [coptic]kurie ele ycon[/coptic]

well.....you are not the first to say this. I did read about this and heard some comments about replacing the Kerie Leisons. I believe there is some truth to this matter but that was a long time ago. It makes sense to only say the kerie leysons when an agpeya hour is prayed; here, most of the third hour is prayed so i would say the Kerie leisons are said. and yes, it's the easier option.....but not really for me; i know all of alli el-orban and would love to say the whole things once live. but it is easier for everyone in church as individuals to say the Kerie leisons....i guess that might be the reason it started.

[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=9261.msg114683#msg114683 date=1274550727]
These are the rites:
The Lamb is offered while the congregation chants [coptic]Kuri`e `eleycon[/coptic] 41 times, then prays the Trisagion, and chants the Offering's Alleluia hymn (Alle el-qorban) if there is enough time. The hymn of[coptic] `Allyloui`a @ vai pe pi[/coptic] is chanted,

Dear jydeacon and all,
This is the kind of thing I am talking about. When things are done in haste, even those we consider very credible and authentic make basic mistakes and we simply should not follow. I never heard the trisagion being said after the 41 [coptic]kurie ele ycon [/coptic]irrespective of the latter being strictly speaking a wrong practice as I mentioned above. I guess Albair or whoever edited this part of the book on his behalf translated the words "quddos" into trisagion in a hurry, not paying heed that it refers to Holy Holy Holy Lord of hosts (or the Sabbaoth), which is a totally different piece than the trisagion of course.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]


i totally agree with you on this. many confuse the term "trisagion" with "holy, holy, holy" the praise of the 24 presbyters. it's even written in many books as so.