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Greet one another witha HOLY KISS
hay guys, so i was wondering why do we greet each other with a 'hand hug' and not with a holy kiss...
Comments
A man isnt even allowed to kiss his wife from saturday night, do you think they'll let you go around kissing others??
Is that fair??
Some books say that the Coptic practice was to kiss the fingers and then exchange the kiss by touching the fingers which had been kissed. That is more or less what I do when sharing the peace.
Do all Coptic churches do the hand-shake sort of thing.
Father Peter
In the BoC, do men and women kiss also during the prayer of reconciliation? or is it men and men and women with women only as in the Coptic Church?
Dude,
A man isnt even allowed to kiss his wife from saturday night, do you think they'll let you go around kissing others??
Is that fair??
YA but i figured men are always on one side, and women were on the other so, i guess that would make it ok?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7938.msg102670#msg102670 date=1241646482]
Dude,
A man isnt even allowed to kiss his wife from saturday night, do you think they'll let you go around kissing others??
Is that fair??
YA but i figured men are always on one side, and women were on the other so, i guess that would make it ok?
Hang on..
If we are giving each other a Holy Kiss, and a sign of peace, why do we segregate men from women? What if a man is trying to make peace with a woman in Church and he really feels the need to do this sign of peace before the mass?
I mean, it could be a man and his wife, or a man and his daughter, or a man and a friend who happens to be a woman? In such circumstances, are men allowed to give women a Holy Kiss? or vice versa?
Thanks
Most personal problems cannot be simply resolved by exchanging the liturgical peace, that is a sign of a peace that already exists.
Better to make sure, as part of preparation on Saturday, or even Sunday morning before the Liturgy, that you are at peace with everyone. There is plenty of time before the Liturgy begins to sort things out.
Father Peter
At some point it is too late to sort things out for THAT liturgy, and it is better not to commune if there is some serious matter between a person and someone else which cannot be resolved.
Most personal problems cannot be simply resolved by exchanging the liturgical peace, that is a sign of a peace that already exists.
Better to make sure, as part of preparation on Saturday, or even Sunday morning before the Liturgy, that you are at peace with everyone. There is plenty of time before the Liturgy begins to sort things out.
Father Peter
So, if problems cannot be resolved then during the mass, why even have the sign of peace between others if it is only just symbolic?
Why even do it? We are just living in symbolism?
I did not mean, by the way, that giving or doing a sign of peace during the liturgy was somehow a way to make peace (although it could be).
But if it is all symbolism, why do we do this amongst ourselves if no one really does it to ACTUALLY make peace?
When I hug a friend it is a sign of our friendship, but it also sustains our friendship.
If I went up to someone with whom I had a real falling out and just hugged them it would neither be a sign of our friendship nor would it sustain it. I'd probably be pushed away.
Just because something is symbolic doesn't mean it is not real. Far from it. Symbols are a way of communicating very deep and important realities.
The middle of the Liturgy is not the best time to be making up with friends. If it is possible to be reconciled with a short word then that is fine, say 'I'm sorry' and give the peace, but most reconciliations need more time and should be part of the preparation for the Liturgy. If it is a woman with whom you need to be reconciled then be reconciled before everyone comes into the Church as it would not appropriate to disrupt the worship of others by exchanging the peace with a woman if this would not be seen as normal behaviour in the Liturgy.
You seem to be equating 'symbolic' with 'not real', that is almost the opposite of what it means, correct me if I have misunderstood you. The symbol is a means of communicating the reality otherwise it would not be a symbol.
Father Peter
Because it is a sign of the peace which really exists.
When I hug a friend it is a sign of our friendship, but it also sustains our friendship.
If I went up to someone with whom I had a real falling out and just hugged them it would neither be a sign of our friendship nor would it sustain it. I'd probably be pushed away.
Just because something is symbolic doesn't mean it is not real. Far from it. Symbols are a way of communicating very deep and important realities.
The middle of the Liturgy is not the best time to be making up with friends. If it is possible to be reconciled with a short word then that is fine, say 'I'm sorry' and give the peace, but most reconciliations need more time and should be part of the preparation for the Liturgy. If it is a woman with whom you need to be reconciled then be reconciled before everyone comes into the Church as it would not appropriate to disrupt the worship of others by exchanging the peace with a woman if this would not be seen as normal behaviour in the Liturgy.
You seem to be equating 'symbolic' with 'not real', that is almost the opposite of what it means, correct me if I have misunderstood you. The symbol is a means of communicating the reality otherwise it would not be a symbol.
Father Peter
Thanks Fr. Peter.
Yes.. i was equating symbolic with "not real" - but I think your point of view on this matter clearly shows that something symbolic IS real.
But let's say there is REAL sisterly love and friendship between myself and a woman in the Church.. why should we not also make the sign of peace between us?
Thanks
Most other Orthodox Churches do not require the faithful to remove their shoes when receiving communion, yet within the COC it is a custom which should be taken account of.
This is the way things are. It is possible for custom and practice to change slowly in accordance with the changing interaction of Church and Society but these things do not change simply because of personal preference. If you have a problem in a particular situation then you can speak to your priest. In my own British Orthodox Church there is not the same separation of men and women because this has never been a custom in the British Isles even during the period when the Church was Orthodox. But it is the custom in the ethnically Coptic communities and this cannot be ignored, though it can be respectfully questioned.
Father Peter
in the british orthodox church, people shake hands across genders, like in other british churches. anything else would be culturally strange.
kissing on the cheek is something the british do only with good friends (even then, a hug is more normal) or in high society, and then only one cheek is kissed. men don't kiss each other in the cheek in britain, because too much affection between men is frowned upon, as if it can lead directly to an inappropriate relationship! (sorry to the any other brits out there, please permit me to comment on my own culture!) i personally like men to express their affection more, and with continuing immigration, especially of Christians, the british culture is changing a bit in that respect ;)
i was shocked to read that people don't take off their shoes in other orthodox churches. maybe this is only in europe and the asian/african orthodox churches are different. can anyone share their experience of this? i started taking my shoes off to get holy water long ago in the days when i used to visit the coptic church but was not a member, it just made sense, based on God telling moses to remove his shoes in exodus 3:5.
i always take off my shoes, even if i go up just to receive a blessing in catholic or other churches. i suppose it looks weird to the other people, but i would feel really uncomfortable to keep my shoes on near the altar.
i wonder, father peter, do people take their shoes off in the british orthodox church? i didn't notice, i was concentrating on the liturgy and on the communion.
one last question, in other churches, do people frown at people sitting with their legs crossed? remembering not to cross my legs was one of the hardest things about becoming coptic, i was never told it was impolite when growing up and would have comfortably crossed my legs in front of royalty! i know from this and other forums it's unthinkable in arabic-speaking and greek orthodox churches, but what about the other churches?
i am asking these questions because i hope to visit lots of other orthodox churches, esp when in foreign countries, and i would like not to make mistakes :)
if you have a problem in a particular situation then you can speak to your priest. In my own British Orthodox Church there is not the same separation of men and women because this has never been a custom in the British Isles even during the period when the Church was Orthodox. But it is the custom in the ethnically Coptic communities and this cannot be ignored, though it can be respectfully questioned.
Father Peter
No , I have no problem with the way things are. I am sure they are there for a reason. But I have the right to know and understand what those reasons are.
So, why exactly can we not do the sign of peace with women in the Church?