In Col 2:9, we see that Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead in bodily form: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity, yet we should remember Christ's comforting of the disciples, when He said "for My Father is greater than I"(Jn 14:28) because all things have been given to Him from the Father, as the Father is the Fountainhead of the Trinity, the external cause of the Son, for He begot the Son before the existence of time.
I was chatting with some muslims who asked me the following questions:
Can you help answer:
If EACH person (hypostases) in the Trinity is Equal with one another, then why did Christ say :"My Father is greater than I" ?
Does EACH hypostases (person) in the Holy Trinity have HIS OWN mind and Intellect??
Thanks
The reason Jesus said "my father is greater than I" is because at that time Jesus was human, and even though he was God, having a human body made him need to eat, sleep, drink.. So the Father who was not human was at a greater position than Jesus at the time. Jesus chose to became human, and the human body is limited. But the Spirit of God the Father is limitless. Therefore, at the time.. The father was at a greater position than Jesus.
Also anytime Jesus prayed to the father he did so because once again as he became human he also became a servant just like all of us. Even tho he was ONE with God, he was still %100 human and all humans are servants of God. So when Jesus became human he also became a servant.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5731.msg77038#msg77038 date=1190012684] Godhead means divine nature.
In Col 2:9, we see that Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead in bodily form: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity, yet we should remember Christ's comforting of the disciples, when He said "for My Father is greater than I"(Jn 14:28) because all things have been given to Him from the Father, as the Father is the Fountainhead of the Trinity, the external cause of the Son, for He begot the Son before the existence of time.
There is NO Godhead in the Trinity. Or, rather, I should say the Holy Trinity in and of itself is a Godhead. There is no Godhead within the Trinity. All things have been given to the Son through the Father, because, as you have said, the Son is the begotten of the Father. However, as the Father is the "cause" of the Son, the Son is the "cause" of the Father. (Though that word (cause) cannot be used that way because that would imply that the Holy Trinity began to exist at a certain point in time. However, since the Trinity is the Creator of time it is above time.)
Sorry but according to your formula 1 may equal 3 (or may equal a 1/3)
1 is 1 x 1 x 1 while 1 = 1 = 1 We must not describe God by any mathematic expressions. It would be used just for introductory simplification, as a symbol to help explain the notion of the Holy Trinity.
You already gave the answer: they are also One Person and are inseparable you may say: Holy Trinity the One God. In God's realm They is also He. He is also Love.
God has told us through many prophets in the OT who He is, directly or by translation always in the same contexts: Holy, One, Lord, Helper, King, Savior, Redeemer, Life, Truth etc.
As Christians we know more from the NT, so He added Holy Trinity, Father, Word, Jesus, Christ, Son of God, son of man, Holy Spirit, Spirit etc.
[quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=5731.msg77049#msg77049 date=1190061617] [quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5731.msg77038#msg77038 date=1190012684] Godhead means divine nature.
In Col 2:9, we see that Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead in bodily form: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity, yet we should remember Christ's comforting of the disciples, when He said "for My Father is greater than I"(Jn 14:28) because all things have been given to Him from the Father, as the Father is the Fountainhead of the Trinity, the external cause of the Son, for He begot the Son before the existence of time.
There is NO Godhead in the Trinity. Or, rather, I should say the Holy Trinity in and of itself is a Godhead. There is no Godhead within the Trinity. All things have been given to the Son through the Father, because, as you have said, the Son is the begotten of the Father. However, as the Father is the "cause" of the Son, the Son is the "cause" of the Father. (Though that word (cause) cannot be used that way because that would imply that the Holy Trinity began to exist at a certain point in time. However, since the Trinity is the Creator of time it is above time.)
I am confused- were you trying to refute something I said? I mean I clearly said that the Godhead is the Holy Trinity! You simply reiterated what I said- save for the last point.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5731.msg77038#msg77038 date=1190012684] Godhead means divine nature. ... Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity,...
YHWH (there are no vowels in the word) is the Hebrew word for 'I AM'. Jehovah, Yehweh and what have you, are corruptions of the word 'YHWH', when the word was translated into English.
There are a couple of things I think you are confusing. The words 'God' and 'Trinity' are not names, they are titles. They are a way of describing the Divine. In the same way that the head of a royal family is called 'King'. 'King' is not the name of the person, but rather, its a description of who the person is. The word 'king' is used to describe a person who is royalty, just as the word 'God' is used to describe a person (since the Trinity is 3 persons) who is Divine. 'Trinity' is another word that is used to describe the Divine and it comprised of two words 'Tri' (meaning 3) and 'Unity' (which refers to 'oneness'). Thus, Trinity is just 3 in 1 (as has been stated before).
There are a couple of words in English that do not contain vowels. Two examples are 'cry' and 'pry'. Now, there are some that will say that 'y' is a vowel, but, as I was taught, it is not. It just can 'behave' (for lack of a better word) as a vowel. Anyway, we are talking about Hebrew, and in Hebrew, it is possible for words to exist that do not contain vowels, YHWH being one of them. I don't speak Hebrew, so I'm not 100% certain how to pronounce it. The closest, I would guess, is Yehweh.
The Father's name is 'YHWH' The Son's name is 'YHWH' The Holy Spirit's name is 'YHWH'
When Christ became man, He took on a human name, 'Jesus' (more accurately, Joshua, seeing as how that is the translation of the name Yeshua). This is the name we use when addressing the second person of the Trinity. Because we have been born again into adoption through Christ, we can address the first person of the Trinity as 'Father', which is a more personal and affectionate way then 'YHWH'. In our cases, we do not refer to our fathers by their names, but rather, we say 'Dad' or 'Daddy'. It is a more affectionate term, a term weighted with love.
If we say in Agios Otheos : "O Holy Trinity, Have mercy upon us" - we could or might as well say "O YHWH, Have mercy upon us" !? Non??
Yes, we could say this, but the text of the hymn says 'O Holy Trinity' so there really is no reason to change it.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5731.msg77103#msg77103 date=1190120332] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
YHWH (there are no vowels in the word) is the Hebrew word for 'I AM'. Jehovah, Yehweh and what have you, are corruptions of the word 'YHWH', when the word was translated into English.
You said that that word was a translation of 'I am'.. How is that a name? It's simply 'I am' in another language... ?
I think that is the question QT has made. I think answer simply to the other questions are that the Holy Trinity is our concept and realization that came through Christ on the Mystery of God. It has been somewhat delineated, but we still have difficulty in understanding the hypostatic union. And should we be surprised when we cannot appreciate the union of our mind, body, soul and spirit. Why should we expect to understand what is God, when we are yet to be able to understand ourselves- in which we have the luxury to put under a microscope and further investigate.
I don't this is a cop out. Actually it is the opposite. If God was so simple- if we could grasp Him, than He would be God. He would definitely be a figure drawn by men who conspired together. If this was our God, than I would have even greater doubts.
Back to the central question- no. What Christ does say when telling us how to address the Father (read what is said before the prayer) is just that- how to pray to the Father. It basically just says that we should pray to the Father. It does not say anything about not praying to the Son or the Holy Spirit. But, we never really do pray to the Holy Spirit, anyway. But does that matter- for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Son. Further, when we pray to the Son- do we not confess that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father?
It is complicated- and we should not be impelled to really over rationalise this- for after all, we consistently profess that this is a Mystery.
BRILLIANT!!! Thank you for pointing that out. The thing about names, particularly names in the Bible, is that there is always an underlying meaning behind them; a hidden significance. For example, the name of the Messiah is Emmanuel, which means 'God with us'. There is always a meaning behind the names, and it is no exception in the case of the name of God. 'I AM' is a statement of His eternality (if there is such a word). God has no beginning and no end. He just simply IS and that is the significance of His name.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5731.msg77118#msg77118 date=1190122797] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Hizz_chiilld
BRILLIANT!!! Thank you for pointing that out. The thing about names, particularly names in the Bible, is that there is always an underlying meaning behind them; a hidden significance. For example, the name of the Messiah is Emmanuel, which means 'God with us'. There is always a meaning behind the names, and it is no exception in the case of the name of God. 'I AM' is a statement of His eternality (if there is such a word). God has no beginning and no end. He just simply IS and that is the significance of His name.
We, as members of Tasbeha, aught to ask the Administrator or the Moderator to create a new category by the title “ Vassilios asks and answers too”, so we would have 9 categories instead of the existing 8!!!!
I am sorry, Doubting Thomas, as I had made a mistake, and thought you said the Father is the Godhead. Please forgive me.
I would also like to comment on the name "YHWH". As I was taught (by His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy in his latest book), the name "YHWH" is the Jewish name for God. If it symbolized something else in Hebrew, that we do not know. However, Adonai was not the name they used for God (all the time). Rather they took the vowels of Adonai and incorporated them into YHWH. This would form Yehova, or Jehova. Jehova is not a corruption of YHWH.
I am also sorry, but Vassillios's post seems somewhat contradicting. First, it says that Elohim mainly refers to God the Father (which is incorrect). Then it says that Elohim is plural. My belief is that because Elohim is plural, it does not refer to God the Father (because the Father is only one and not many). Rather, Elohim is referring to the Holy Trinity, as we see in Genesis and Isaiah.
Comments
In Col 2:9, we see that Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead in bodily form: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity, yet we should remember Christ's comforting of the disciples, when He said "for My Father is greater than I"(Jn 14:28) because all things have been given to Him from the Father, as the Father is the Fountainhead of the Trinity, the external cause of the Son, for He begot the Son before the existence of time.
Hi,
I was chatting with some muslims who asked me the following questions:
Can you help answer:
If EACH person (hypostases) in the Trinity is Equal with one another, then why did Christ say :"My Father is greater than I" ?
Does EACH hypostases (person) in the Holy Trinity have HIS OWN mind and Intellect??
Thanks
The reason Jesus said "my father is greater than I" is because at that time Jesus was human, and even though he was God, having a human body made him need to eat, sleep, drink.. So the Father who was not human was at a greater position than Jesus at the time. Jesus chose to became human, and the human body is limited. But the Spirit of God the Father is limitless. Therefore, at the time.. The father was at a greater position than Jesus.
Also anytime Jesus prayed to the father he did so because once again as he became human he also became a servant just like all of us. Even tho he was ONE with God, he was still %100 human and all humans are servants of God. So when Jesus became human he also became a servant.
Godhead means divine nature.
In Col 2:9, we see that Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead in bodily form: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity, yet we should remember Christ's comforting of the disciples, when He said "for My Father is greater than I"(Jn 14:28) because all things have been given to Him from the Father, as the Father is the Fountainhead of the Trinity, the external cause of the Son, for He begot the Son before the existence of time.
There is NO Godhead in the Trinity. Or, rather, I should say the Holy Trinity in and of itself is a Godhead. There is no Godhead within the Trinity. All things have been given to the Son through the Father, because, as you have said, the Son is the begotten of the Father. However, as the Father is the "cause" of the Son, the Son is the "cause" of the Father. (Though that word (cause) cannot be used that way because that would imply that the Holy Trinity began to exist at a certain point in time. However, since the Trinity is the Creator of time it is above time.)
Let's take the Trinity. It is analogous to an equilateral triangle: Points (F)ather, (S)on and (H)oly Spirit are the points in the triangle.
F + S + H = The Holy Trinity
The ONE God (G1) = F + S + H
But does F = G1? What is the difference between G1 and F?
Also, does each person in the Holy Trinity have His own will?? If it is the will of the Father, then is the Father the same as G1?
Cheers
1 is 1 x 1 x 1 while 1 = 1 = 1
We must not describe God by any mathematic expressions. It would be used just for introductory simplification, as a symbol to help explain the notion of the Holy Trinity.
God has told us through many prophets in the OT who He is, directly or by translation always in the same contexts: Holy, One, Lord, Helper, King, Savior, Redeemer, Life, Truth etc.
As Christians we know more from the NT, so He added Holy Trinity, Father, Word, Jesus, Christ, Son of God, son of man, Holy Spirit, Spirit etc.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5731.msg77038#msg77038 date=1190012684]
Godhead means divine nature.
In Col 2:9, we see that Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead in bodily form: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity, yet we should remember Christ's comforting of the disciples, when He said "for My Father is greater than I"(Jn 14:28) because all things have been given to Him from the Father, as the Father is the Fountainhead of the Trinity, the external cause of the Son, for He begot the Son before the existence of time.
There is NO Godhead in the Trinity. Or, rather, I should say the Holy Trinity in and of itself is a Godhead. There is no Godhead within the Trinity. All things have been given to the Son through the Father, because, as you have said, the Son is the begotten of the Father. However, as the Father is the "cause" of the Son, the Son is the "cause" of the Father. (Though that word (cause) cannot be used that way because that would imply that the Holy Trinity began to exist at a certain point in time. However, since the Trinity is the Creator of time it is above time.)
I am confused- were you trying to refute something I said? I mean I clearly said that the Godhead is the Holy Trinity! You simply reiterated what I said- save for the last point.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5731.msg77038#msg77038 date=1190012684]
Godhead means divine nature.
...
Hence, there is only one Godhead the Trinity,...
The name of God can be found in Exodus 3:14: Christ often used this statement (I AM) in reference to Himself as well. For evidence, have a look at John 8:58 where Christ says:
YHWH (there are no vowels in the word) is the Hebrew word for 'I AM'. Jehovah, Yehweh and what have you, are corruptions of the word 'YHWH', when the word was translated into English.
There are a couple of things I think you are confusing. The words 'God' and 'Trinity' are not names, they are titles. They are a way of describing the Divine. In the same way that the head of a royal family is called 'King'. 'King' is not the name of the person, but rather, its a description of who the person is. The word 'king' is used to describe a person who is royalty, just as the word 'God' is used to describe a person (since the Trinity is 3 persons) who is Divine. 'Trinity' is another word that is used to describe the Divine and it comprised of two words 'Tri' (meaning 3) and 'Unity' (which refers to 'oneness'). Thus, Trinity is just 3 in 1 (as has been stated before).
There are a couple of words in English that do not contain vowels. Two examples are 'cry' and 'pry'. Now, there are some that will say that 'y' is a vowel, but, as I was taught, it is not. It just can 'behave' (for lack of a better word) as a vowel. Anyway, we are talking about Hebrew, and in Hebrew, it is possible for words to exist that do not contain vowels, YHWH being one of them. I don't speak Hebrew, so I'm not 100% certain how to pronounce it. The closest, I would guess, is Yehweh.
The Father's name is 'YHWH'
The Son's name is 'YHWH'
The Holy Spirit's name is 'YHWH'
When Christ became man, He took on a human name, 'Jesus' (more accurately, Joshua, seeing as how that is the translation of the name Yeshua). This is the name we use when addressing the second person of the Trinity. Because we have been born again into adoption through Christ, we can address the first person of the Trinity as 'Father', which is a more personal and affectionate way then 'YHWH'. In our cases, we do not refer to our fathers by their names, but rather, we say 'Dad' or 'Daddy'. It is a more affectionate term, a term weighted with love. Yes, we could say this, but the text of the hymn says 'O Holy Trinity' so there really is no reason to change it.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
YHWH (there are no vowels in the word) is the Hebrew word for 'I AM'. Jehovah, Yehweh and what have you, are corruptions of the word 'YHWH', when the word was translated into English.
You said that that word was a translation of 'I am'..
How is that a name? It's simply 'I am' in another language... ?
I think that is the question QT has made. I think answer simply to the other questions are that the Holy Trinity is our concept and realization that came through Christ on the Mystery of God. It has been somewhat delineated, but we still have difficulty in understanding the hypostatic union. And should we be surprised when we cannot appreciate the union of our mind, body, soul and spirit. Why should we expect to understand what is God, when we are yet to be able to understand ourselves- in which we have the luxury to put under a microscope and further investigate.
I don't this is a cop out. Actually it is the opposite. If God was so simple- if we could grasp Him, than He would be God. He would definitely be a figure drawn by men who conspired together. If this was our God, than I would have even greater doubts.
Back to the central question- no. What Christ does say when telling us how to address the Father (read what is said before the prayer) is just that- how to pray to the Father. It basically just says that we should pray to the Father. It does not say anything about not praying to the Son or the Holy Spirit. But, we never really do pray to the Holy Spirit, anyway. But does that matter- for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Son. Further, when we pray to the Son- do we not confess that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father?
It is complicated- and we should not be impelled to really over rationalise this- for after all, we consistently profess that this is a Mystery.
Hizz_chiilld
BRILLIANT!!! Thank you for pointing that out. The thing about names, particularly names in the Bible, is that there is always an underlying meaning behind them; a hidden significance. For example, the name of the Messiah is Emmanuel, which means 'God with us'. There is always a meaning behind the names, and it is no exception in the case of the name of God. 'I AM' is a statement of His eternality (if there is such a word). God has no beginning and no end. He just simply IS and that is the significance of His name.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Hizz_chiilld
BRILLIANT!!! Thank you for pointing that out. The thing about names, particularly names in the Bible, is that there is always an underlying meaning behind them; a hidden significance. For example, the name of the Messiah is Emmanuel, which means 'God with us'. There is always a meaning behind the names, and it is no exception in the case of the name of God. 'I AM' is a statement of His eternality (if there is such a word). God has no beginning and no end. He just simply IS and that is the significance of His name.
Makes sence :)
Thanks heaps !
Just a suggestion :D
I would also like to comment on the name "YHWH". As I was taught (by His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy in his latest book), the name "YHWH" is the Jewish name for God. If it symbolized something else in Hebrew, that we do not know. However, Adonai was not the name they used for God (all the time). Rather they took the vowels of Adonai and incorporated them into YHWH. This would form Yehova, or Jehova. Jehova is not a corruption of YHWH.
I am also sorry, but Vassillios's post seems somewhat contradicting. First, it says that Elohim mainly refers to God the Father (which is incorrect). Then it says that Elohim is plural. My belief is that because Elohim is plural, it does not refer to God the Father (because the Father is only one and not many). Rather, Elohim is referring to the Holy Trinity, as we see in Genesis and Isaiah.