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Religous-Political
In the Holocaust, over 6 million jews were killed. Germany now gives trillions of euros to Israel for what happened. Many people say that's how they are still able to fight in the war againist palestine.
My question- Why can't Egypt can't compensation from Italy and many other countries for the MILLIONS of Egyptian Chrisitans killed in persecution? Or From Saudia Arabia for the arab conquest in the 5-7th centuries? They Changed the Chrisitan Population from 99.99% in egypt into 10%. Or From the Jews around the world for crucifying Christ?
What do you guys think?
My question- Why can't Egypt can't compensation from Italy and many other countries for the MILLIONS of Egyptian Chrisitans killed in persecution? Or From Saudia Arabia for the arab conquest in the 5-7th centuries? They Changed the Chrisitan Population from 99.99% in egypt into 10%. Or From the Jews around the world for crucifying Christ?
What do you guys think?
Comments
'In the world you face persecution. But take courage; I have conquered the world!' (John 16:33).
Christ told us that we would face persecution. He told us that since the world hated Him, it will hate us as well. He also told us that He is going away to prepare a place for us, so that where He is, we may be also. What use will we have for financial compensation? Our Church was built on the Blood of Christ as well as the blood of martyrs. Our Church is strong because of persecution. Money is not what built up the Church, blood is. Blood and Faith in the resurrected Christ. The Church has always taught that this world is temporary. It is here now, and then, like a vapour, it is gone. We should not focus on the material, but the spiritual. So, I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
'In the world you face persecution. But take courage; I have conquered the world!' (John 16:33).
Christ told us that we would face persecution. He told us that since the world hated Him, it will hate us as well. He also told us that He is going away to prepare a place for us, so that where He is, we may be also. What use will we have for financial compensation? Our Church was built on the Blood of Christ as well as the blood of martyrs. Our Church is strong because of persecution. Money is not what built up the Church, blood is. Blood and Faith in the resurrected Christ. The Church has always taught that this world is temporary. It is here now, and then, like a vapour, it is gone. We should not focus on the material, but the spiritual. So, I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make.
i would of used the same verse.
just to add to it, i remember hearing or reading about other chrchs envying for having all that persecution and with that, we are still the same if not than stronger.
[quote=Isaiah 19:19]On that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the center of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border.
and
[quote=Isaiah 19:25]the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people"
His Church will never fall, the very gates of Hell will not prevail against her, and no apology is necessary.
Modern Saudi Arabia is a post 1919 creation and could plausibly deny any connection with the guys who conquered Egypt so many years ago; it would be a bit like the English demanding compensation from the French for the Norman Conquest in 1066!
This compensation thing has got out of hand in the modern world. The UK government apologises for slavery, yet it was around before the UK existed and the UK navy helped stop it in the west in the nineteenth century; and any way, it was only able to happen in west Africa because the local chiefs realised they could make good money selling their conquered enemies rather than killing them! So who apologises for what?
The Coptic Church, as has been said, has presented the world with an example of the Suffering Servant; for countless generations it has shown how to be a real Christian in times of utmost persecution. I don't know if that is compensation - but I know it as a great witness to the Faith.
In Christ,
Anglian
I heard that Copts cant visit the Holy Land for Political reasons "the muslims cant go in"
can some one further explain?
Speaking of Religous Political
I heard that Copts cant visit the Holy Land for Political reasons "the muslims cant go in"
can some one further explain?
Yeah, the Coptic Church's position is that Coptic Orthodox Christians are not permitted to go to Israel until the Israel-Palestine conflict is settled. Of course any Egyptian is legally permitted to go to Israel, but Baba Shenouda sees it wrong for us to betray out Arab brothers by supporting Israel while they continue their actrocities again the Palestinians. Furthermore, let us not forget that the Israeli government is still yet to return to us the Monastery of Deir Sultan in Jerusalem (that Israel STOLE from us, and gave to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church despite numerous court rulings that the monastery should be returned to the Coptic Church).
Essentially, why should we support Israel with tourism dollars while they act in such a shameful way?
It all comes down to Baba Shenouda's recent comment that:
"I have prevented the Copts from visiting Jerusalem because of my faith and for [various] reasons, and I don't care about the consequences. First of all, many Copts want to visit Jerusalem. If I permitted this, dozens of thousands would go.
Interviewer: They yearn to go to Jerusalem.
Patriarch Shinoda III: If dozens of thousands go to Israel, they will be influenced by the Israeli media, and we will not be able to prevent this. Who knows what ideas they will return with? That's one thing. In addition, this will revive Israel in terms of economy and propaganda. Israel will be the one to benefit from this, not them. "
I hope that clears all that up.
Ma salaama,
Matt
Furthermore, let us not forget that the Israeli government is still yet to return to us the Monastery of Deir Sultan in Jerusalem (that Israel STOLE from us, and gave to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church despite numerous court rulings that the monastery should be returned to the Coptic Church).
Given the fact that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church are two parts of the same Oriental Orthodox Church, I find it strange that there is even a debate about who the monastery belongs to. Ethiopian and Coptic monks should be welcome in eachother's monasteries by virtue of them being one Church. And canonically speaking (as I understand it), it is the Armenian Church that should have jurisdiction over the Holy Land, and so it should imho be a matter for the Armenian Patriarch of Jersualem to sort out.
Speaking of Religous Political
I heard that Copts cant visit the Holy Land for Political reasons "the muslims cant go in"
can some one further explain?
yes this is true only becuase His Holiness prohibited going for any copts.
[quote author=matt88 link=topic=5652.msg75677#msg75677 date=1187523266]
Furthermore, let us not forget that the Israeli government is still yet to return to us the Monastery of Deir Sultan in Jerusalem (that Israel STOLE from us, and gave to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church despite numerous court rulings that the monastery should be returned to the Coptic Church).
Given the fact that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church are two parts of the same Oriental Orthodox Church, I find it strange that there is even a debate about who the monastery belongs to. Ethiopian and Coptic monks should be welcome in eachother's monasteries by virtue of them being one Church. And canonically speaking (as I understand it), it is the Armenian Church that should have jurisdiction over the Holy Land, and so it should imho be a matter for the Armenian Patriarch of Jersualem to sort out.
very good point, orthodox11!
[quote author=matt88 link=topic=5652.msg75677#msg75677 date=1187523266]
Furthermore, let us not forget that the Israeli government is still yet to return to us the Monastery of Deir Sultan in Jerusalem (that Israel STOLE from us, and gave to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church despite numerous court rulings that the monastery should be returned to the Coptic Church).
Given the fact that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church are two parts of the same Oriental Orthodox Church, I find it strange that there is even a debate about who the monastery belongs to. Ethiopian and Coptic monks should be welcome in eachother's monasteries by virtue of them being one Church. And canonically speaking (as I understand it), it is the Armenian Church that should have jurisdiction over the Holy Land, and so it should imho be a matter for the Armenian Patriarch of Jersualem to sort out.
Yes, you do kind of have a point, but to me its not the same thing. I mean if the Ethiopian and Coptic Church ever decided to go their own ways (God forbid) the Coptic church would have no right to the monastery. Secondly, whilst everyone, even the Israeli legal system, recognises the monastery to belonging to us the Israeli government has refused to hand the monastery over to us for purely political reasons. Indeed, they only gave the monastery to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church because at that time Ethopia had developed close ties with Israel. Therefore, at least on principle the Monastery of Deir Sultan should returned to us.
I wanted to attach a journal article about the situation but the server says its to big. But if anyone does a search at google for an article called "Jerusalem and the Copts" they should be able to read it.
Yes, you do kind of have a point, but to me its not the same thing. I mean if the Ethiopian and Coptic Church ever decided to go their own ways (God forbid) the Coptic church would have no right to the monastery.
That should not even be an issue. It sounds just like a prenuptual agreement, where couples say "I want to marry you and spend the rest of my life with you, but just in case we break-up, I want the car." Such thinking does not, in my opinion have any place in a Church one believes to be the Body of Christ. Although this shows the self-serving disdain for the law so often displayed by the Israeli government, I still don't see why two parts of the same Church should be fighting over land (especially in an area where neither Alexandria nor Addis Abbaba have jurisdiction traditionally).
The people for whom my sympathy is greatest here are the Palestinian Christians. They get it in the neck from their fellow Palestinians for not being Muslims, and from the Israelis for being Arabs and Christian. The Zionists got what they wanted, and having obtained it, have discovered they can only keep it by force. Any counter-arguments are dismissed with cries of 'anti-Semitism' and references to the holocaust, as though the rest of us should shut our mouths about the blatant injustices committed by the Israeli Government.
It is the cause of the Palestinian Christians, and their plight, for which we should pray. The attitude of the Israeli Government to Christian Holy Places is, frankly, disgraceful; but if that we the limit of their folly it might be bearable - alas, it is not, so it is doubly unbearable.
In Christ,
Anglian
I fear that fighting over who 'owns' what is not restricted to the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches, as the infrequent bouts of fisticuffs on Mt. Athos show; we could all learn a few lessons from Our Lord on this!
Of course, and all such infighting, whether it be fistfights between Ethiopians and Copts on the roof of the Holy Sepulcher, or between supporters of rival EO Patriarchs on the ground beneath, it is counter-productive and down right unChristian.
Above all, it's of no help to our Palestinian brothers, who are in need of our help and prayers.
As Copts we shouldnt be mad that the Church isnt in "our name" the only thing that should upset us would be hte fact that the Israeli govermnet took it from us.....nothing more nothing less.....being that it is part of the EOC basically means it belongs to us
i.e. it would be like saying that Pyramids in egypt are no longer to be called the pyramids of Giza but the Pyramids of Cairo.....it doesnt make a diff cuz there sitll in egypt ......get where im going with this
One thing i'd like to add about Palestinian Christians, is that becasue of their dislike for the Israeli goverment, many have joined terrorist groups like "Fatth" which is not purely islamic like hamas....tihs info i got from a palestinian supporter of that group
You tells us: which is very sad - if understandable.
Our Faith forbids involvement in such acts - whatever the provocation. One fears that, in the end, a Palestinian state created in the present atmosphere would be bound to be a Muslim one - and perhaps not one like Jordan, where Christians are treated with respect. It is, perhaps, part of the sadness of what has happened that Israeli behaviour has so radicalised Palestinian opinion.
We should pray for our brothers and sisters in the Holy Land.
In Christ,
Anglian