I am so sorry you have had to go through this. But I think you will take from it some lessons, and that they will, in time, be helpful ones. The wider question your experience raises is an important one, to which, alas, there is not general answer.
Sorry, I didn't have time to read over all the new posts...
How do we come to terms with having communion with a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it?
This is the main isuue.. right? Well the answer is right there is you're question.
"How do we come to terms" A forgiving heart does not need to come to terms, a forgiving heart accepts it. It's all about Love, Vas. We have to learn to love EVERYONE, even those who've hurt us. We hurt Jesus, and one in a thousand times we decide to apologise... He chose to have mercy and forgive us regardless... and as He treats us, we must also treat others. How many times do we make Him cry without even taking the time to notice in our day... and how many chances does He give us?
"... a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it" Many times we blame others for our pain, our inability to forgive others 'because they didn't apologise' or whatever.. so what if they don't apologise? Did Jesus wait for His murderers to apologise before He forgave them ?? no.. and a lot of the time we forget that.. nowhere in the rule book does it say that others have to deserve forgiveness! you don't need an apology from him in order to 'come to terms' with it, you need to accept that he is human, you need not judge him... in other words.. don't ponder on how you've been treated.. use your energy, time and thoughts for God. Satan's playing tricks with your mind, Vas, like he does with us all.. Sometimes we need that little sore spot in there to remind us of what's important.. Perhaps God is trying to teach us all a lesson through your story...
Anyway.. I feel like I'm babbling on.. the point is, YOOUU are in control of how you deal with things and come to terms with them.. you shouldn't rely on apologies.. because sometimes they never come.. and if we depart with hatred and unforgiveness within our hearts we cannot be with Him, simple as that. Another thing.. Anglican has suggested that you write this priest a formal letter in order to 'get it off your chest', i strongly discourage you from doing so. The only time you should confront someone about something they did is if you are doing it out of love, and you are doing it so that this person can meet you in paradise.. NOT to get it off your chest, or for any other reason that has anything to do with you.. any confrontation shoudl be to make someone more aware of what they do, not to make you feel better. And that's also the reason I said you need not confront him earlier in the post.. Remember.. only YOU can learn to get past this pain that he has caused you. Sometimes, however, writing all that stuff inside down and getting all that anger out helps.. but that's where it should end.. you shouldn't send it to them.
there i am babbling on again.. in conclusion -> alot of the time when we have problems with other people, the problem is within us, not them.. so that would be a good place to search. Hope I helped, +God Bless.
Hi Hizz, I love what you said. It was very wise, and leads to peace. Thanks. Cheers.
[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=topic=5382.msg71734#msg71734 date=1180704226] Sorry, I didn't have time to read over all the new posts...
How do we come to terms with having communion with a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it?
This is the main isuue.. right? Well the answer is right there is you're question.
"How do we come to terms" A forgiving heart does not need to come to terms, a forgiving heart accepts it. It's all about Love, Vas. We have to learn to love EVERYONE, even those who've hurt us. We hurt Jesus, and one in a thousand times we decide to apologise... He chose to have mercy and forgive us regardless... and as He treats us, we must also treat others. How many times do we make Him cry without even taking the time to notice in our day... and how many chances does He give us?
"... a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it" Many times we blame others for our pain, our inability to forgive others 'because they didn't apologise' or whatever.. so what if they don't apologise? Did Jesus wait for His murderers to apologise before He forgave them ?? no.. and a lot of the time we forget that.. nowhere in the rule book does it say that others have to deserve forgiveness! you don't need an apology from him in order to 'come to terms' with it, you need to accept that he is human, you need not judge him... in other words.. don't ponder on how you've been treated.. use your energy, time and thoughts for God. Satan's playing tricks with your mind, Vas, like he does with us all.. Sometimes we need that little sore spot in there to remind us of what's important.. Perhaps God is trying to teach us all a lesson through your story...
Anyway.. I feel like I'm babbling on.. the point is, YOOUU are in control of how you deal with things and come to terms with them.. you shouldn't rely on apologies.. because sometimes they never come.. and if we depart with hatred and unforgiveness within our hearts we cannot be with Him, simple as that. Another thing.. Anglican has suggested that you write this priest a formal letter in order to 'get it off your chest', i strongly discourage you from doing so. The only time you should confront someone about something they did is if you are doing it out of love, and you are doing it so that this person can meet you in paradise.. NOT to get it off your chest, or for any other reason that has anything to do with you.. any confrontation shoudl be to make someone more aware of what they do, not to make you feel better. And that's also the reason I said you need not confront him earlier in the post.. Remember.. only YOU can learn to get past this pain that he has caused you. Sometimes, however, writing all that stuff inside down and getting all that anger out helps.. but that's where it should end.. you shouldn't send it to them.
there i am babbling on again.. in conclusion -> alot of the time when we have problems with other people, the problem is within us, not them.. so that would be a good place to search. Hope I helped, +God Bless.
Hopefully, we're changing churches... we wont see this priest again! lol Its great.... he talks so much about himself... he doesnt stop..
I'm going to another church now. The priest there always shouts.. but the good thing, he shouts at everyone. He's extremely judgemental, and he was in fact asked to leave the CHurch for being violent. I feel i'm getting a downgrade, but its best to try new priests.
Anglican: The lesson to be learned was this: Do not mess..... [glow=red,2,300][shadow=red,left]WITH THE MEN IN BLACK! (MIB)[/shadow][/glow]
well, do you have another preist in the church? or just him... if you do.. you can talk to the other preist telling him how you feel or somthing.... and what does KNFOC mean? lol
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5382.msg71879#msg71879 date=1180950108] How on earth can we write to the pope to tell him that!???
like in a professional letter that you can mail or fax him telling him your problem. but since you said he would know what's going on already, than there is no point of contacting him.
Regarding the Bishop of France, Vassilos, your wrong. You Guys do have a bishop. He is-
HG Bishop Athanasious 149 Rue De Bagnolet 75020 Paris 83200 Le Revest Les Eaux Ermitage Saint Marc Chemin de la Chapelle Copte Fontanieu France Phone Number-0033494989560 E-mail:IDK Sorry
Also you have HE Metropolitan Bishop Morcos 83200 Le Revest Les Eaux Ermitage Saint Marc Fontanieu – France Phone Number-003343611144 E-mail: [email protected]
The website link below has the names, addresses, phone's and much more of all coptic bishops. I think that if they excommunicated both of the bishops, they would have removed them from the website.
Wow Vass, your story sorta scared me lol i mean thats defnitley unpriestly like manner...but u cant judge why he did it as for the preist taking Communion after what he did:
In the Synaxarium, it tells this story about what our Great Father Abba John of Sceites witnessed: (13th of Kiahk)
He once saw one of the priests, who was of bad reputation, coming to the church and the evil spirits surrounding him. When the priest arrived at the door of the church, the angel of the Lord came out from the sanctuary (Hekal) with a fiery sword in his hand and dismissed the unclean spirits. The priest entered the church and put on the service clothes and administered the liturgy and gave the Holy Communion to the people. After he was finished, he took off the service clothes and went out of the church, the evil spirits returned to him. This was what St. John said to his brethren the monks, to make them aware that there was no difference between a sinful and an unsinful priest in ministering the church sacraments.
Good Luck with the Priest, but have you tried maybe talking to another preist to see what his opinion is on this whole case?
Oh and as for the Bishops As of 2 weeks ago, they were still in full communion with our church b/c at the Popes Wedsnday Lecutre, they were there sitting right next to his Holiness
i only read th efirst 2 pages..but how do you get yourself in such unimaginable situations :/ geesh. never in my life, have i heard of a priest ignoring people of his congregation. haha..i don't even know what to say, it's just kinda...uhh a very abnormal situation. Thank God the bishop at my church does't do that... wow..he puts up with a lot.haha but yea, i do agree with the whole western thingymajigar :)
The answer to the question of 'what can I do?' lies with you as a Christian. Your priest has clearly offended you deeply, and not only yourself. The injuries to yourself are best dealt with by forgiving him; holding on to a personal grievance damages oneself. He too is made in God's image, and, as you say, you are not judging him - except you probably are if you cannot forgive what he has done to you.
There is another level in this though. If others are also offended, and if there is a wider risk of public scandal, and if your efforts to communicate privately with your priest have failed, then it is your duty to say something to his superiors in the Church. If it has come to that, you must put your case soberly and factually to the bishop, then you must leave it in his hands and abide by his decision.
This is so difficult because we all respect and admire our priests. We know the burden they bear on our behalf, and we know them to be consecrated to His service in a special way. But, in this sinful world, it is, alas, a fact that sometimes even priests stumble; if that is what others think, as well as what you think, then it may be that if one more, collective, attempt to talk to your priest fails, there is no other way than to write, again collectively and in respectful terms, to the bishop.
But at every stage remember he is a child of Christ too, and just because he does not treat you with respect, that is no reason to return the behaviour. For a priest to behave as you intimate suggests a potentially serious situation; if that is so, the bishop will know what to do.
If what the priest did was criminal, if what he did could harm others in the congregation, then I do believe it is a crisis in which you have a duty to report to his elders. Frankly, you might be able to forgive, and I commend you and remind you that is your duty as a Christian, but others are not so spiritually mature, and some are impressionable. If you do not report, you share his guilt if he continues to be an agent of injustice. Even Christ woed the priests, who loved the reception they had. They may be chosen by God, but there is no difference for the potentiality of wrong by the Jewish priests and our priests. History tells us that the fractions of the Church were from elite Fathers and less the influence of the Emperor or other authority. They should be accountable, both here on earth and with their Heavenly Father, just as we are.
I am a "Western Copt", as so eloquently described by Vas. However, John wrote many times why we respect our priests- they have given their lives to our service! And for that I hold them at great respect. But it is our duty not to let even the priest divide the Church. Even St. Timothy was many times,as great as he was, St Paul was no fool in reminding him of the spiritual warfare. And we know too how one of St Paul's followers had defected from the Faith. So they are prone to sin, maybe less or more than we are. Less maybe due to the knowledge they have (but this sounds to gnostic to me) and maybe more, because Satan attacks more those who when fallen can cause the greatest damage.
But it is our duty not to let even the priest divide the Church.
Vassilios is in a difficult situation, not least because the person who would give him the best guidance is the very person against who a complaint lies.
Do let us know, Vassilios, how things are going for you.
ive compltely understand were your coming from. ive read the posts and wanted to tell you a few quick points.
1. in the canon law of the church it clearly states:" and if a deacon or a layman shall have opposed a priest or contradicted him, OR IF ANGER HAS COME BETWEEN THEM, he shall not go to another priest to communicate(have holy communion) from his hands, and if he has gone to another priest to communicate from his hands, and if he has done so, both he and he who gives him the communion shall be suspended" ... wow, be carefull
2. you have to listen to this sermon by fr thomas hopko, he really really really hits the nail on the head regarding this issue, found at
Comments
I am so sorry you have had to go through this. But I think you will take from it some lessons, and that they will, in time, be helpful ones. The wider question your experience raises is an important one, to which, alas, there is not general answer.
In Christ,
Anglian
Well the answer is right there is you're question.
"How do we come to terms"
A forgiving heart does not need to come to terms, a forgiving heart accepts it. It's all about Love, Vas. We have to learn to love EVERYONE, even those who've hurt us. We hurt Jesus, and one in a thousand times we decide to apologise... He chose to have mercy and forgive us regardless... and as He treats us, we must also treat others. How many times do we make Him cry without even taking the time to notice in our day... and how many chances does He give us?
"... a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it"
Many times we blame others for our pain, our inability to forgive others 'because they didn't apologise' or whatever.. so what if they don't apologise? Did Jesus wait for His murderers to apologise before He forgave them ?? no.. and a lot of the time we forget that.. nowhere in the rule book does it say that others have to deserve forgiveness! you don't need an apology from him in order to 'come to terms' with it, you need to accept that he is human, you need not judge him... in other words.. don't ponder on how you've been treated.. use your energy, time and thoughts for God. Satan's playing tricks with your mind, Vas, like he does with us all.. Sometimes we need that little sore spot in there to remind us of what's important.. Perhaps God is trying to teach us all a lesson through your story...
Anyway.. I feel like I'm babbling on.. the point is, YOOUU are in control of how you deal with things and come to terms with them.. you shouldn't rely on apologies.. because sometimes they never come.. and if we depart with hatred and unforgiveness within our hearts we cannot be with Him, simple as that. Another thing.. Anglican has suggested that you write this priest a formal letter in order to 'get it off your chest', i strongly discourage you from doing so. The only time you should confront someone about something they did is if you are doing it out of love, and you are doing it so that this person can meet you in paradise.. NOT to get it off your chest, or for any other reason that has anything to do with you.. any confrontation shoudl be to make someone more aware of what they do, not to make you feel better. And that's also the reason I said you need not confront him earlier in the post.. Remember.. only YOU can learn to get past this pain that he has caused you. Sometimes, however, writing all that stuff inside down and getting all that anger out helps.. but that's where it should end.. you shouldn't send it to them.
there i am babbling on again.. in conclusion -> alot of the time when we have problems with other people, the problem is within us, not them.. so that would be a good place to search.
Hope I helped,
+God Bless.
I love what you said. It was very wise, and leads to peace. Thanks.
Cheers.
[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=topic=5382.msg71734#msg71734 date=1180704226]
Sorry, I didn't have time to read over all the new posts... This is the main isuue.. right?
Well the answer is right there is you're question.
"How do we come to terms"
A forgiving heart does not need to come to terms, a forgiving heart accepts it. It's all about Love, Vas. We have to learn to love EVERYONE, even those who've hurt us. We hurt Jesus, and one in a thousand times we decide to apologise... He chose to have mercy and forgive us regardless... and as He treats us, we must also treat others. How many times do we make Him cry without even taking the time to notice in our day... and how many chances does He give us?
"... a priest that has OFFENDED US and not apologised for it"
Many times we blame others for our pain, our inability to forgive others 'because they didn't apologise' or whatever.. so what if they don't apologise? Did Jesus wait for His murderers to apologise before He forgave them ?? no.. and a lot of the time we forget that.. nowhere in the rule book does it say that others have to deserve forgiveness! you don't need an apology from him in order to 'come to terms' with it, you need to accept that he is human, you need not judge him... in other words.. don't ponder on how you've been treated.. use your energy, time and thoughts for God. Satan's playing tricks with your mind, Vas, like he does with us all.. Sometimes we need that little sore spot in there to remind us of what's important.. Perhaps God is trying to teach us all a lesson through your story...
Anyway.. I feel like I'm babbling on.. the point is, YOOUU are in control of how you deal with things and come to terms with them.. you shouldn't rely on apologies.. because sometimes they never come.. and if we depart with hatred and unforgiveness within our hearts we cannot be with Him, simple as that. Another thing.. Anglican has suggested that you write this priest a formal letter in order to 'get it off your chest', i strongly discourage you from doing so. The only time you should confront someone about something they did is if you are doing it out of love, and you are doing it so that this person can meet you in paradise.. NOT to get it off your chest, or for any other reason that has anything to do with you.. any confrontation shoudl be to make someone more aware of what they do, not to make you feel better. And that's also the reason I said you need not confront him earlier in the post.. Remember.. only YOU can learn to get past this pain that he has caused you. Sometimes, however, writing all that stuff inside down and getting all that anger out helps.. but that's where it should end.. you shouldn't send it to them.
there i am babbling on again.. in conclusion -> alot of the time when we have problems with other people, the problem is within us, not them.. so that would be a good place to search.
Hope I helped,
+God Bless.
Its great.... he talks so much about himself... he doesnt stop..
I'm going to another church now. The priest there always shouts.. but the good thing, he shouts at everyone. He's extremely judgemental, and he was in fact asked to leave the CHurch for being violent. I feel i'm getting a downgrade, but its best to try new priests.
Anglican: The lesson to be learned was this: Do not mess..... [glow=red,2,300][shadow=red,left]WITH THE MEN IN BLACK! (MIB)[/shadow][/glow]
The advice from Hizz was excellent, and it looks like you're taking it, which is excellent.
Too right that you don't mess with the MIB.
In Christ,
John
and what does KNFOC mean? lol
How on earth can we write to the pope to tell him that!???
like in a professional letter that you can mail or fax him telling him your problem. but since you said he would know what's going on already, than there is no point of contacting him.
HG Bishop Athanasious
149 Rue De Bagnolet 75020 Paris
83200 Le Revest Les Eaux Ermitage Saint Marc Chemin de la Chapelle Copte Fontanieu France
Phone Number-0033494989560
E-mail:IDK Sorry
Also you have HE Metropolitan Bishop Morcos
83200 Le Revest Les Eaux Ermitage Saint Marc Fontanieu – France
Phone Number-003343611144
E-mail: [email protected]
HTH,
PK
The website link below has the names, addresses, phone's and much more of all coptic bishops. I think that if they excommunicated both of the bishops, they would have removed them from the website.
http://www.theholysynod.copticpope.org/m006.htm
PK
your story sorta scared me lol
i mean thats defnitley unpriestly like manner...but u cant judge why he did it
as for the preist taking Communion after what he did:
In the Synaxarium, it tells this story about what our Great Father Abba John of Sceites witnessed:
(13th of Kiahk)
He once saw one of the priests, who was of bad reputation, coming to the church and the evil
spirits surrounding him. When the priest arrived at the door of the church, the angel of the Lord
came out from the sanctuary (Hekal) with a fiery sword in his hand and dismissed the unclean
spirits. The priest entered the church and put on the service clothes and administered the liturgy
and gave the Holy Communion to the people. After he was finished, he took off the service
clothes and went out of the church, the evil spirits returned to him. This was what St. John said to
his brethren the monks, to make them aware that there was no difference between a sinful and an
unsinful priest in ministering the church sacraments.
Good Luck with the Priest, but have you tried maybe talking to another preist to see what his opinion is on this whole case?
As of 2 weeks ago, they were still in full communion with our church
b/c at the Popes Wedsnday Lecutre, they were there sitting right next to his
Holiness
never in my life, have i heard of a priest ignoring people of his congregation. haha..i don't even know what to say, it's just kinda...uhh a very abnormal situation.
Thank God the bishop at my church does't do that...
wow..he puts up with a lot.haha
but yea, i do agree with the whole western thingymajigar :)
The answer to the question of 'what can I do?' lies with you as a Christian. Your priest has clearly offended you deeply, and not only yourself. The injuries to yourself are best dealt with by forgiving him; holding on to a personal grievance damages oneself. He too is made in God's image, and, as you say, you are not judging him - except you probably are if you cannot forgive what he has done to you.
There is another level in this though. If others are also offended, and if there is a wider risk of public scandal, and if your efforts to communicate privately with your priest have failed, then it is your duty to say something to his superiors in the Church. If it has come to that, you must put your case soberly and factually to the bishop, then you must leave it in his hands and abide by his decision.
This is so difficult because we all respect and admire our priests. We know the burden they bear on our behalf, and we know them to be consecrated to His service in a special way. But, in this sinful world, it is, alas, a fact that sometimes even priests stumble; if that is what others think, as well as what you think, then it may be that if one more, collective, attempt to talk to your priest fails, there is no other way than to write, again collectively and in respectful terms, to the bishop.
But at every stage remember he is a child of Christ too, and just because he does not treat you with respect, that is no reason to return the behaviour. For a priest to behave as you intimate suggests a potentially serious situation; if that is so, the bishop will know what to do.
In Christ,
John
I hope things are better than they were on this subject; and I hope that you are well.
The name change ... why??
In Christ,
John
I am a "Western Copt", as so eloquently described by Vas. However, John wrote many times why we respect our priests- they have given their lives to our service! And for that I hold them at great respect. But it is our duty not to let even the priest divide the Church. Even St. Timothy was many times,as great as he was, St Paul was no fool in reminding him of the spiritual warfare. And we know too how one of St Paul's followers had defected from the Faith. So they are prone to sin, maybe less or more than we are. Less maybe due to the knowledge they have (but this sounds to gnostic to me) and maybe more, because Satan attacks more those who when fallen can cause the greatest damage.
What you write here is so correct. Vassilios is in a difficult situation, not least because the person who would give him the best guidance is the very person against who a complaint lies.
Do let us know, Vassilios, how things are going for you.
In Christ,
John
ive compltely understand were your coming from. ive read the posts and wanted to tell you a few quick points.
1. in the canon law of the church it clearly states:" and if a deacon or a layman shall have opposed a priest or contradicted him, OR IF ANGER HAS COME BETWEEN THEM, he shall not go to another priest to communicate(have holy communion) from his hands, and if he has gone to another priest to communicate from his hands, and if he has done so, both he and he who gives him the communion shall be suspended" ... wow, be carefull
2. you have to listen to this sermon by fr thomas hopko, he really really really hits the nail on the head regarding this issue, found at
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/when_bishops_disappoint
hope it helps