islam and mohammed

egy
edited December 1969 in Random Issues
ok i am not sure if this question should be on this category but here is goes:

what was Mohammeds religion before turrning Muslim?
like was he christian, or he did not have a religion?

why did God create Muslim if he knew that they were going to do this to the Christian ppl?

an angel REAlly never went to him right, sdo what happened to him that would make him start islam?

sry if i am asking too much

pp4m


EgY
«1

Comments

  • [quote author=egy link=topic=5348.msg71227#msg71227 date=1179800020]
    why did God create Muslim if he knew that they were going to do this to the Christian ppl?

    u can put this in the things that need to be we khalas. like normal disasteres.


    an angel REAlly never went to him right, sdo what happened to him that would make him start islam?

    all he needed is an excommunicated nastorian monk and some soldiers.
  • Islam began as a cult and only gained recognition as religion in the 7th century when they began conquering Constantinople and Egypt in the name of Islam. Muhammad is cult leader, nothing more. He started Islam for the sole reason of justifying his morally decrepit actions and lustful desires.
    In regards to why God allowed Islam to survive no one can rightly say. There is a line where the will of God is indiscernible to us. Everything in life happens either because God wills it to happen and directly causes it or because he allows it to happen as a means to test us or teach us a lesson. In the second case, it is not necessarily God who actively causes the event or condition. An example would be Job. God did not actively punish him and torture him; he simply allowed him to be tortured and tested by the devil. Since we know that God cannot will any evil, by elimination we can deduce that he allowed the devil to feed the fire that is now Islam. The question of why, however, can never be completely answered.
  • [quote author=egy link=topic=5348.msg71227#msg71227 date=1179800020]

    what was Mohammeds religion before turrning Muslim?


    Most of the Arabs at Mecca at that time were pagans, but many had adopted a kind of quasi-monotheism as a result of Judeo-Christian influence. The cheif diety of the Meccan pantheon was called 'the god' (al-Illah), and many slowly began to see this as being the same God as the One worshipped by Jews and Christians.

    Muhammad probably belonged to this group. As a trader, he probably had much contact with both Jews and Christians, learning from them stories about Christ and the prophets. The Qur'an also contains many stories about Christ from gnostic texts. But his main influence was probably Buheira, the Nestorian monk, who taught him a twisted version of Christianity and proclaimed Muhammad to be a prophet.


    why did God create Muslim if he knew that they were going to do this to the Christian ppl?


    Why did God allow for any heresy to occur? Free will.


    an angel REAlly never went to him right, sdo what happened to him that would make him start islam?


    The Arabs at the time were organised as a bunch of warring tribes, totally disunited. They were surrounded by the Byzantine and Abyssinian empires to the west, and the Persian empire to the east.

    Islam borrows heavily from the religion of its enemies in order to defend itself against it. Islam kept the existing pagan practices of Arabic society, such as the hajj to Mecca, but attributed their origins to the God of Abraham - and by focusing on Ishmael, it portrayed the God of the Jews and Christians as the ancestral God of the Arabic people.

    So Islam provided a very effective way of uniting the different Arab tribes against the Byzantines, Persians and Ethiopians, by adopting a form of monotheism that promoted Arab nationalism and preserved integral pagan practices such as the hajj.

    Of course, an angel might very well have appeared to Muhammad. But if that is the case, it was certainly not Gabriel - it was Lucifer.
  • I have nothing against anglicans/evangelicals.. or protestants.. they are our brothers, and from how it looks, they are a good example even... i just feel people havent given orthdooxy enough chance.


  • Ya I too wish they'd give Orthodoxy a chance, but at the same time I understand why they dont:

    Prior to convertion, they were Muslims, Muslims BASE ANYTHING and EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD ON THEIR KORAN, that sorta parralels to the Evangilical Church, who don't rely and sometimes acutally REFUSE tradition, they basically live on the Bible and only that; this is unlike the Orthodox Churches, were tradition has a strong role, second to the Bible of Course.

    So I kinda see why they would be attracted to Evangilicalism more, because it's basically the same way of "worship", not to forget that switching over from (compared to the Coptic Church) a liberal religon to a very conservative one is a really hard thing to do, plus unless one Truly knows Orthodoxy from his heart, it doesn't seem like a very attractive religon to a foreigner.  For Example: If you tell someone, you stood all day on your feet, constantly singing, and bowing down, and standing up and didn't rest at all without tasting water or food from 7am to 6pm, on Good Friday...they would see it as a waste of day and effort for no reason, but for you, it is probably the most beautiful day in the whole year, were you actually feel peace inside, and take no notice, to the physical hunger and pain.

    God Bless
  • [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=5348.msg71242#msg71242 date=1179832606]
    Prior to convertion, they were Muslims, Muslims BASE ANYTHING and EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD ON THEIR KORAN, that sorta parralels to the Evangilical Church, who don't rely and sometimes acutally REFUSE tradition, they basically live on the Bible and only that; this is unlike the Orthodox Churches, were tradition has a strong role, second to the Bible of Course.

    So I kinda see why they would be attracted to Evangilicalism more, because it's basically the same way of "worship"

    I think one can draw a comparison between liberal Protestantism and Islam with regards to things such the absence of clergy, absence of sacraments, veneration of saints, iconoclasm, etc.

    But in other respects I think a Muslim would feel closer to Orthodoxy than Protestantism. You have fasting, prostrations, a stricter moral code, a daily cycle of prayers. etc. Also very few Muslims base everything on the Qur'an, most rely heavily on hadith (tradition) in determening practices and customs. Secondly, interpretation of the Qur'an is normally not a matter for the individual but is rather determined by an extensive exegetical tradition - so again, its more akin to Orthodoxy than liberal Protestantism in this respect.
  • hmm thats another way to look at it, good points

    but from wat i understand according to this one muslim kid i know, hadiths are the "words and laws' mohammed recieved? so aren't those writtne in the koran?
  • [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=5348.msg71256#msg71256 date=1179842100]
    but from wat i understand according to this one muslim kid i know, hadiths are the "words and laws' mohammed recieved? so aren't those writtne in the koran?


    No, hadith are a collections of various sayings and actions of Muhammad that were written down long after his death.
  • actually another thing i just found. in the quran, it says that if there is a verse that counterdicts anothr, they can replace it. also when i say verse, i mean the saying of the 'Wahi' which is some how the words Muhamad recived from allah himself. so god said something and than said that if i have said anything that goes against what i said before, easly replace it.
    a great documantry is here:
    Islam: What the West Needs to Know
    it's abit long but it's full of truth about Islam. i watched this like 4 times and i still learn more every time.
  • This may be a difficult one for some.

    Islam deserves our respect, even though it is wrong.

    It attempts to bring a monotheistic belief where once there was paganism; it brings faith and worship where once there were idols and pagan sacrifices. At its best it tries to bring men and women to a better way of being than they had when they were pagans. It has produced some deep thinkers and some men of great spirituality.

    That said, there is a problem which hardly needs stating on this forum. Their Prophet (peace be upon him) imbibed some elements of Judaism and Nestorian Christianity and, perhaps with the help of an evil spirit, concocted from them a religion which, whilst better than paganism, helped to damage Christianity in its heartland.

    Whatever Muslims say, their religion was spread only by the sword - unlike Christianity. It maintains itself by force. It persecutes Christians. There is no Muslim country where the lot of Christians is better than the lot of Muslims in Christian countries; that says much. Despite a thousand plus years of persecution, the Coptic Church prospers in Egypt; would Islam have survived in like circumstances?

    Much is made by Muslims of the persecution of their brothers and sisters in Palestine by the Jews; what about their own persecution of Palestinian Christians? (who, of course, also get persecuted by the Jews).

    Islam is more like an early version of Calvinism at times than it is like anything else. It appeals to that human instinct for austerity accompanied by the desire to control others. It is sad really. I understand why Muslim countries refuse to allow Christian missions - perhaps they fear there would not be many Muslims left if they came into contact with the God of love and compassion.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • [quote author=Anglian link=topic=5348.msg71342#msg71342 date=1180026726]
    Islam is more like an early version of Calvinism at times than it is like anything else. It appeals to that human instinct for austerity accompanied by the desire to control others. It is sad really. I understand why Muslim countries refuse to allow Christian missions - perhaps they fear there would not be many Muslims left if they came into contact with the God of love and compassion.


    John what you said in your last post is a little diffrent.......it just shows your acceptance and love for what God let happends in our world....(which i really respect)
    anyways i didn't get that last sentence thoo. (bolded one) please clearfy....
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    John,

    I have always loved to read what you have to say in these forums, and you have, on multiple occasions, been extremely insightful in your posts, and I have benefited greatly from them.  There is one thing here, though, that I must say, I strongly disagree with:

    Islam deserves our respect, even though it is wrong.

    How can something, that you agree is wrong, and has caused so much deception and strife, be worthy of any respect?  Islam, like any other Christian heresy of the past, is not something that should be respected or permitted or upheld in any way, shape or form.  If we look at some of our great Church Fathers of the past, when dealing with heretics, they did respect the individual because they are, in the end, a creature of God, but they certainly did not respect their heretical beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.

    For me, Islam is no different than paganism, even if it is monotheistic in nature.  There was a time in ancient Egypt when they practiced monotheism (under Akhenaton, if I recall correctly) but that did not make them any less pagan.  A great deal of the mystery religions that arose at the time of Christianity as well, which also incorporated some of the Christian beliefs, were still pagan nonetheless.

    Once again, I have a great deal of respect for you and your posts, and I hope I do not come across as sounding rude or harsh.  If I have, please forgive me.
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5348.msg71347#msg71347 date=1180027259]
    How can something, that you agree is wrong, and has caused so much deception and strife, be worthy of any respect?  Islam, like any other Christian heresy of the past, is not something that should be respected or permitted or upheld in any way, shape or form.  If we look at some of our great Church Fathers of the past, when dealing with heretics, they did respect the individual because they are, in the end, a creature of God, but they certainly did not respect their heretical beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.


    if am not mistaken...i think John looked at Islam as a way that strengthen our faith. u'll asl how.....by recognizing it's true meening and value. like you said before there were many heresies before, without these heresies, would we get any of St. Athansius sayings...or St. Cyrils or Pope Dioscoros....no.
    everyonce in a while, there is always somthing that is against our true faith that brings us to defending our faith and by that were sown more into it.
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Mina,

    I can understand that.  However, that does not me we should respect something simply because it strengthens our faith.  God permits heresies to arise for just this reason: i.e. to strengthen our faith.  However, that does not me we should accept it simply because it strengthens our faith. 
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5348.msg71352#msg71352 date=1180029083]
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Mina,

    I can understand that.  However, that does not me we should respect something simply because it strengthens our faith.  God permits heresies to arise for just this reason: i.e. to strengthen our faith.  However, that does not me we should accept it simply because it strengthens our faith. 


    well you're right here to. but what can we do. they're increasing by the second. and if you watch the video i posted below, they will show you that at somepoint Islam will take over if it's not stopped.
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    they will show you that at somepoint Islam will take over if it's not stopped

    I do not agree with this at all.  The Truth will always stand and overcome any lie.  Christ is very much present and active in His Church and He will preserve it.  Islam will never take over (even in Egypt), simply because darkness cannot overcome light.  Look at the time of St. Athanasius.  The 'whole world was Arian' and it was just 'Athanasius contra mundo' (Athanasius against the world), and yet, in the end, the Truth prevailed.
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5348.msg71355#msg71355 date=1180030470]
    I do not agree with this at all.  The Truth will always stand and overcome any lie.  Christ is very much present and active in His Church and He will preserve it.  Islam will never take over (even in Egypt), simply because darkness cannot overcome light.  Look at the time of St. Athanasius.  The 'whole world was Arian' and it was just 'Athanasius contra mundo' (Athanasius against the world), and yet, in the end, the Truth prevailed.

    you're right. that's what we believe. but when ur talking to somone who don't give a dam about religion or faith and are more political and realistic than anything else, u need to speak about what effacts them politiclly. am living in America....you have freedom of religion. which is still going on. now the government can't stop a religion untill seeing that it works against the rest of the amendments....which mostly invloves peace and human rights.
    so untill now Muslims are really not doing anything wrong that they can be stopped for....that is because it says in the quran that if you are not strong enough to be the enemy than just live peacefully with them untill you have the upper hand and than defeat them. bisaclly what Muhamad did.
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Mina,

    Not only is this what we believe, more importantly, this is the reality.  God is very much present and very much active in this world.  Regardless of whether a person or a society gives a damn about religion/faith or politics and 'realistic' things, God is present and active.  Now, whether Muslims assimilate into society or not is not our concern.  The fact is, they will never take over to the point of annihilating the Church.  Remember what Christ Himself said about the Church, '... the gates of Hell will not prevail against it'.  This is not something we should concern ourselves with too much.
  • thanks for the reply guys

    im NOT interested in islam but sometimes i just wonder why did it start?

    i guess u r right---it was Gods choice and we r never going to find out
  • John,

    I agree with Cephas, Islam does not deserve our respect. You'll remember the saying, "respect is not given, it is earned." Quite simply, they have not earned it. As you have said, their way is that of the sword; that path, as Christ has said, is doomed to fail. Such a way, being against God, has not earned respect, neither in God's eyes nor ours.


    Mina and Cephas,

    Doesn't the book of Revelations mention Islam and its spread symbolically. I believe that it mentions how Islam will overcome the world. Although, i do still agree that while islam might overcome the world, it will never overcome Christianity.

  • [quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=5348.msg71373#msg71373 date=1180067501]
    Doesn't the book of Revelations mention Islam and its spread symbolically. I believe that it mentions how Islam will overcome the world. Although, i do still agree that while islam might overcome the world, it will never overcome Christianity.

    where does it say that exactly. alsi i don't thinkit can overcome Christianty...no one can. but it will overcome the world.
  • James 2:8-12 “If you fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbour as thyself, you do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.”

    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5348.msg71352#msg71352 date=1180029083]
    However, that does not me we should respect something simply because it strengthens our faith.  God permits heresies to arise for just this reason: i.e. to strengthen our faith.  However, that does not me we should accept it simply because it strengthens our faith. 


    respecting someone does not mean you accept what they believe. As stated before respect is earned not given and this should apply to all whether christian or non christian. if you belive we shouldnt respect muslims do you expect them to respect you??..
    The peace and harmony most of us desire is impossible without respect and love.
    how can you love your enemies if you dont respct them? respect defined is Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people.
    we dont need to accept or hold true their values but recognise that they have chosen an alternate path in life one which does not lead to eternal life
  • Dear Κηφᾶς, Dear Mina,

    Thank you both for your kind words; I think Kerestina has grasped what I meant by 'respect'. It might have been better had I used a word with less scope for misunderstanding!

    He calls us to love our enemies; how hard that is for sinful man! Our natural instinct is to smite our enemies - or run if they are too strong for us. But in His infinite wisdom, He calls us to another path. I am most grateful to Kerestina, who expresses better than I did (or could) what I am trying to say. I am trying to follow what Our Lord Himself tells us to do.

    We do not believe that what the Muslims do is the will of the Spirit, and I really do suspect that if more Muslims came into contact with the God preached by the Church, the God of love and forgiveness, they might well be attracted to Christianity; Islamic states are very reluctant to allow Christians to proselytise - and I am not surprised, since what the Church offers is what we all need.

    We need have no worries about Islam; He has assured us, as Κηφᾶς says that the very Gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church. The how and the why of the spread of Islam is not ours to know - His reasons are sufficient.

    Islam is not the same as paganism, or idol worship, and in that sense it brings men and women on a better path; but it is still not the right one. I respect it because my Lord has told me to love my enemies, and because in offering love where sometimes scorn is offered in return, I attempt, feebly, to walk in His way. The current trend in the western media to demonise Islam is not helpful to anyone, or to our own spiritual development; Jesus Christ shows us, as always, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

    And, my dear Κηφᾶς, you came across, as you always do, as thoughtful, knowledgeable and kind, not least to an erring brother.

    In Christ,

    John
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    [quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=5348.msg71373#msg71373 date=1180067501]
    Mina and Cephas,

    Doesn't the book of Revelations mention Islam and its spread symbolically. I believe that it mentions how Islam will overcome the world. Although, i do still agree that while islam might overcome the world, it will never overcome Christianity.

    If you have a reference for this, I would greatly appreciate it.  I have my doubts about this though, as Revelation was written circa 100 A.D., a good 5 centuries before Mohammed came into existence.  While I'm in no way trying to dismiss the prophetic elements that can be found in Revelation, I also urge caution when trying to interpret them.
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    John and Kerestina,

    Firstly, John, as always, thank you for you kind words.  You are truly a gracious gentleman, and it is a pleasure to be able to carry on any sort of discussion with you. 

    Now, onto the issue at hand.  There is something I believe you and Kerestina have missed in my previous posts, and I hope I will be able to clarify now.  John, your initial statement dealt with the notion that we should respect Islam, a notion I still object strongly to.  I refuse to respect a faith that is a gross corruption of the Truth.  That being said, I fail to see how my lack of respect for Islam can be equated to my lack of respect for a Muslim.  I do not think the two are the same thing.  In fact, in a previous post, I stated that one should deal respectfully with individuals (even if they are heretics) just as, I'm sure, the early Church Fathers dealt with the Arians or Nestorians, while at the same time, not respecting the corrupt teachings they were passing on to their followers.  To respect a religion is one thing, to respect the individual who practices a particular religion, is quite another.  I hope I have clarified my position now.
  • Dear Κηφᾶς,

    Thank you for your kindness.

    Your formulation cannot be bettered; it would have been better had I written about my respect for individual Muslims. You are quite correct in what you write. We should always, as you do, differentiate between the sin, which we hate, and the sinner, whom we love.

    So many thanks for your wisdom here - and elsewhere.

    In Chirst,

    John
  • [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5348.msg71390#msg71390 date=1180102915]
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    John and Kerestina,

    There is something I believe you and Kerestina have missed in my previous posts, and I hope I will be able to clarify now.  John, your initial statement dealt with the notion that we should respect Islam, a notion I still object strongly to.  I refuse to respect a faith that is a gross corruption of the Truth.  That being said, I fail to see how my lack of respect for Islam can be equated to my lack of respect for a Muslim.  I do not think the two are the same thing.  In fact, in a previous post, I stated that one should deal respectfully with individuals (even if they are heretics) just as, I'm sure, the early Church Fathers dealt with the Arians or Nestorians, while at the same time, not respecting the corrupt teachings they were passing on to their followers.  To respect a religion is one thing, to respect the individual who practices a particular religion, is quite another.  I hope I have clarified my position now.


    yep your right in that respecting the individual is different from the religion itself. its clear that some muslims or any other non christian denomination do not respect christianity but i dont see why we shud be like them....i dont know, you pose an interesting point one i havent really thought about..... i mean yes we hate the sin but does that essentiallly mean we dont respect it...
  • It seems as though we are in agreement with your excellent points, Κηφᾶς. I am grateful to you for helping us to make the differentiation  between the sin and the sinner.

    Kerestina is certainly correct to say that just because some Muslims have no respect for us, we should not do as they do; we are called to a higher way of life and being by Our Lord, who conquers through love, not through the sword.

    It is to be noted that in the Christian world Muslims, for all the complaints one sometimes hears, are better treated in the main than Christians are in the Muslim world. Clearly, given what Islam says about its own superiority, the present state of the world poses problems for some Muslims; they can hardly say that the Islamic countries enjoy a superior position, and some of the root of Islamic fundamentalism lies here in this resentment. God is patient and long-suffering, and He welcomes all who wish to turn to Him. In His time it will happen.

    In Christ,

    John
  • Well,
    i'm not exactly sure if it is a correct interpretation, but i have heard that the dragon, in his domination of worldly thought and behavior, is believed to be the Islamic state.
    The mention of the "mark of the beast," I've also heard, is another reference to this.
    Again, I forget what my source was for this, so i would love any corrections.
  • Dear EpNomos EnTaio,

    Yes, I have read similar things, and there is a long history of Christians reacting to Islam in this way. Indeed,,as some of you will know, there is a legend that the Prophet (pbuh) took his view of Christianity from a Nestorian monk, and that Islam is therefore a puritanical reaction by monotheists against what was taken to be the teaching that there were 'two Sons'. Most of these things are the kind of phenomena one expects when religions compete in the same region; Islam, after all, has some odd stories about Christianity.

    But Our Lord does not tell us to get out there and smite of enemies, cut his ear off and make him believe what we say; indeed, when St. Peter tried that tack in defending the Lord, he was rebuked. One of the reasons the Copts have such influence and such a reputation for sanctity is that they have lived this way of the Lord. We must remember that millions of our fellow Christians live in lands controlled by Islam, and we who do not should do nothing to inflame the situation; will shall not suffer, they will.

    At its best Islam has been a force for good in some parts of the world where people were worshipping pagan idols; one of the sad things about it is that it is no longer at its best in so many parts of the world. But we must not give in to the temptation to be uncharitable or to denigrate others; these are not what Our Lord has taught us. Only by being true to Him can we hope that those who do not confess Him as Lord will one day do so.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
Sign In or Register to comment.