edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Well, as we all know, abortion is a very big topic in the government these days. I'm personally against it, but not 100%. Just wondering what you all think about the whole issue? I know that the church frowns upon it, but what about the followers of the church?


  • Great topic mmhanna, it is not accepted by our church, so I must lean toward being against it myself. However there are so many scenarios where I can see abortion acceptable. Let the self debate begin:

    In the event some poor girl gets raped and becomes pregnant, why should she have to bear this child? It’s not hers and she didn’t willingly participate in the acts that lead to the creation of the baby. Especially if it is a young girl. Imagine a young girl around 15 or 16 years old walking home and becoming the victim of rape. She can’t possibly deal with a child and live her ordinary life, and she shouldn’t have to! She did nothing to deserve this curse that will impair her life forever. Trying to work out a scenario like this is almost inconceivable to me.

    What if it isn’t a rape victim...; just a person who no longer wants a baby? Back to the teenage scenario… The United States has the highest rate of teen pregnancy, and in my eyes, the sickest society on this planet. These two ideas go hand in hand. Most of the children of these pregnancies will grow up fatherless and at high risk themselves for various social and behavioral problems, the education and work lives of their mothers will be seriously impaired, and the welfare and social costs to the nation will be great. In the United States approximately four in ten girls become pregnant at least once before reaching the age of twenty. This leads to a clearly impaired society. People with a lack of education will breed children who will most likely grow to have a lack of education who will demand more welfare and raise taxes and cause others to pay for these people’s blunders. Allowing these people the choice to have an abortion might significantly reduce the chances of these things taking place. THEN AGAIN, allowing these people to simply abort their babies might show them that they don’t have to take responsibility for their actions. In effect, this could degrade the United States even more. (I think it’s headed down hill one way or another)

    SO! Let’s recap, I have no idea…

    I can’t really come to a conclusion. It is undoubtedly not accepted by God, which transitionally means it shouldn’t be accepted by us either. However, living in a society where most the people don’t know god anyway, I’d hate to be the one to pay for their mistakes. An abortion is not something for me as a Christian, but I really couldn’t care less what others do. For America as a nation, I think it should be legalized in all cases, regardless of the trimester ect. FOR ME as a Coptic Orthodox Christian, I hope its something I never have to deal with and in the event I ever have to, I have faith god will guide me through it.

    What does everybody else think?

    God Bless You All
  • Does it fall under the "Do not murder" commandment? Because it gets all scientific in regards to when the true life and soul of a child is developped.

    What about a married couple who accidentally got pregnant and can not by all means afford to have a child?
  • The way I figure it, if I'm against abortion, I shouldn't participate in the act. But if the rest of society want's an abortion, why should anyone stop them? It does tend to give teenage girls a sense of irresponsibility. Basically they can do whatever they want and then fix it with an abortion. But really, who am I to impose my opinions on others, and who is Bush to illegalize the process?

    The only reason it shouldn't be an abolished practice in the U.S. is because the U.S. isn't necessarily a Christian country (although Bush is and the majority is, and Bush is trying to keep it that way). But for someone that is Buddhist and feels that they want an abortion, by all means, let them have one. It is "unconstitutional" to deny them this practice becuase it is against Christianity and against the Bible. The gov't always says "separate church from state" and this is one issue that bush isn't separating them.

    As for married couples, If they get pregnant, they should have the baby. God has his reasons for everything. Maybe this child will be a very good Christian and serve God in every fashion possible. Maybe this child will be the most supportive and caring of his parents..... you never know. But overall, i'm still against the practice.

    What do u think SunBabyNJ since u brought it up?

    P.S. I'm not sure about the "do not murder commandment"....anyone else?
  • I again agree with you mmhanna. Although we as Coptics don’t agree with views of abortion, others may. The only reason we are allowed to practice our religion freely is the same reason others should be allowed to practice abortion if they please. If we don’t want to take part in it we don’t have to, but under the rules of the United States, it is unconstitutional to deny a potential mother their right to abortion. Then again, to let my inner debate progress; should we let this go by and make it a risk for our future generations. To relate this back to the dating topic, I’m sure that when dating began to break through the social surface people said “let them do it, but I don’t have to” then little by little it became a social norm and now it is something that IS affecting our Coptic society. So maybe we should hold firm because although it may not currently pose a risk to our society, it might potentially be something that plays a part in our lives.

    As for the couple that can’t financially support the baby, I don’t see that as grounds for an abortion.

    Also, one of the main arguments of whether or not abortion should be legalized is surrounded by debates of whether or not you are actually committing murder.
    “Where is the cut off point from zygote to fetus?”
    “When is the cut off point from an organism to an actual human?”
    “When does it count as murder, if ever?”
    All these questions are raised, and nobody can answer them which is why it is safer just to say “no!” to all abortion, for ones self anyway.

    God Bless You All
  • Very good point Mark423! I never considered the point that society's norms could slowly but surely affect out Coptic community, not unlike the whole dating issue. Maybe we should try to keep abortion out of society in order to keep it out of our own individual lives.
  • MMHanna, I had never really formed a personal opinion about it. Like Mark423 illustrated, there are different scenarios that call for different courses of action.
  • That is very understandable, considering all the aspects involved. It's is a tough topic to form one solid opinion on.
  • God has a reason for everything... rite?
    so y would God have some teenage grl get raped, and get pregnant, if he didnt want her ot have the baby?
    plus, not every grl that gets raped gets pregnant... so theres gotta be some reason for this unborn child
    also...i dont understand how you can destroy something God has already begun to create!
  • so I take it your pro-life?
  • i guess so... i mean, even if its not the grls fault she was raped... its not the kids fault either
    even if its not her kid fully
    but as any mother would... if the father was dead, and she was just pregnant
    she would still ahve the baby
    and as for a teenage grl... if she was coptic and didnt want to abort the babies... chances are her priest or parents will support her
    but as i said... how can u destroy something God has already begun to create?
    and how can u kill something that has already taken ur blood and part of ur body?
    i just dont c how abortion is a good idea
    i mean, wut happened before abortion came up?
  • SMS, with all due respect to your opinion, some people would look at it as actually being SELFISH by having a child. If he/she is a by product of rape; you are having to deal with questions of "who is my dad" and perhaps financial problems being able to support the child. I understand it would be a huge struggle and difficulty for a teenage girl to have the child; but I dont think her decison to abort one should be frowned upon. There are also large societal factors that Mark 423 mentioned above. Genetic engineering is wrong, plastic surgery is wrong, abortion in case of rape, is an understandable solution to an unfortunate event. Plus it's easier to speak of what one would or would not do; because we are not in that situation.
  • I agree with you SunBabyNJ. It is a lot easier to say or feel a certain way especially when your not the one in the position. With this topic I seem to go back and forth. With rape, it only seems human and logical to let the girl have the abortion, but thing is, most pregnant teen girls weren't raped. SMS, don't u think that if the raped girl doesn't have the abortion and has the illegit baby, it will be a constant and on-going reminder of one horrific and malevolent event in her life. She may never get over this traumatic experience and live her whole life miserably (God forbid anyone go through something like that). Maybe it is better to legalize the practice...No?
  • mmhanna,
    What are your views then on adoption? Is it not an alternative to living with the child that would remind her everyday of the tragic event she went through? I mean, it has only one conceivable con - the woman must go through pain of delivery first. As I am not a woman, I wouldn't be able to tell ne1 how much it hurts. Then there epidurals and other things. See, this is a very tough topic. Anyway (sorry for straying for a lil there), what are your views on giving up the child for adoption then?
  • No, it still isn't an alternative, because that girl might still think about her child (half is hers) and that she gave it up. Who knows where that kid would be? She might obsess over trying to find it later on in life. Honestly who knows (not me for sure) but adoption isn't an easy thing either. It seems that abortion is still the best thing for this situation (in my opinion).

    What do you think??
  • Hm....you made some good points mmhanna (about her obsessing over the child later on in life). I don't know though. I personally think that abortion isn't necessary if there is adoption agencies available. It's tough to come to a clear cut decision though. Here's some info on how abortion came to be legalized for those who don't know:

    Back in 1973, in a Supreme Court trial Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court in a 5:4 verdict came to decide that a woman should have the right to do what she wants with her body and that abortion should be legal up to the 24th week (6th month). Then, approximately a few weeks later, the woman who brought the trial to fruition in the first place (arguing that abortion should be legal) decided that it was murder and she became a leader in pro-life rallies. Ironic, isn't it?

    The point is, if the Supreme Court decided abortion should be legal because "a woman should have the right to do with her body what she wants" then where is the Christian doctrine that firmly states that our bodies are not our own but Christ our Creator's? It is not present in their decision. This is my own personal reason for being pro-life. I'd like to hear other views though.

    Then our mouth was filled with joy: and our tongue with rejoicing: for our Lord Jesus Christ: has risen from the dead.
    - Chris
  • Let me just restate that I am overall against abortion. I would like to hear some more opinions as well.
  • A child of adoption (when he or she is aware of this) always feels the void and curiousity of their biological parents. How is a child to feel when they find out that a) father is a rapist and b) mother didn't "want" him/her. Alot of decisons people base this on is the well being of the child and how they are going to live their lives as adults, constantly haunted with the fact your father is a rapist; or your parents didn't want you. I'm also generally against abortion, but it doesnt seem fair to have a child in this extreme circumstance.

    You know what story comes to mind? Abraham and Hagar. I know it was not rape; but their "illegimate" child named by God, Ishmael, is actually the beginning of the Islamic nation. "The angel added 'I will increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count...his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brohters' "

    Did I just contradict myself? ;)
  • i also am overall against abortion
    i have previously researched some of the ways of aborting a baby, and quite bluntly, i find them cruel and even inhumane
    and in some cases, may leave side effects that dont allow u to have children again or give difficult birth the next time
    the problem with abortion as someone had already stated, is that its an easy out for a grl that accidentally gets pregnant with her bf... which is not right
    i still dont c how can u destroy something God has already begun to create?
    and how can u kill something that has already taken ur blood and part of ur body?
    andi understand how it can be considered selfish to have a baby, SunBabyNJ, but then agian, this is a very controversial topic for me
    on one hand... i dont think it should be legalized because ppl may abuse and take advantage fo it
    on the other... i think it should be for the poor and helpless victems of rapes, etc...
    but for me...someone who has a huge soft spot for children... i dont htink i'd be able to give it up, whether Heavens forbid im a victem of a rape or whatever
    i dont think we'd ever know unless God forbid, we're put into that position... but then again, we're not and its hard to tell if u dont have kids of ur own already
    ny opinions?
  • I think that in the case of keeping a child of rape, that this takes a lot of courage and strength. Not everyone is able to support themseleves and a child in a situation of rape, wether its financially or emotionally. However, I don't think you have to automtically rule out keeping a child of rape. I think it would be wonderful and dare say a beautiful act, to keep, raise, nurture and love the individual that is born as a result of rape. Although there are questions of who is my dad? Knowing that my mother who went through physical and emotional abuse, and decided to keep me anyway.... How Christlike is that?
    I think the individual who could bear such a thing is very special and very strong....Not anyone can do this (nor should they be expected to by any means)....

    Personally, I'm pro-life AND pro-choice who says you have to be one or the other?
  • great points kokig...you don't have to be either. :)

    You, o my God, have brought mew up from the den of misery.
    - Chris
  • lol Banoub, your answers are always so vague. How about we hear more of your ideas, rather than if somone has just stated a "good point" lol..... Try to say more in that sense. God Bless ;D
  • mmhanna,
    I choose to comment when a person's response is nicely put and presents my feelings towards the specific situation as well. That person gets to writing that feeling before I do. Also, everyone deserves to know that they're not the only one who feels a certain way. I'm also not one for long winded responses (I don't have that ability unless it is something I feel very strong about). God Bless :)

    I am poor and needy: and the salvation of Your face, O God, is that which has accepted me.
    - Chris
  • i gotta agree with banoub on this one...
    kokig, u made excellent points and i couldnt've of put them better myself
  • Oh, I'm totally against Abortion I mean about 95% against it. but there are only one exceptation and that is when the mother's life is in danger! Other than that there is no excuses.
    Taking a life is not my thing and it shouldnt be for others.
  • The church agrees to abortion on one and only one condition
    If the mothers life is in danger. Other than that the church does not allow it
    - If a teenage girl was to get raped and fall pregnant- she must keep the baby or give it up for adoption YET she cannot abort it.
    - If the baby was going to be deformed or paralysed- the mother cannot abort the child for it is Gods will that her child be made like that.

    If a woman aborts a child the church comes down very hard on her. I was told she cannot have communion for up to a year and some priests are who are extremely strict will now allow her to enter the church for the year.

    Never the less, sometimes women feel they need to abort the child they have inside their wombs because they can’t afford it; it was made out of sin or for other reasons. Pray for these people- and pray that God may show them that abortion isn’t something that should be taken lightly.

    God Bless
  • I had met a lady a while back that, is Coptic, had an abortion. she didnt go into details because the thought of it is very painful, but she said that she went to her father of confession, and talked it out wiht him, etc, had he let her abort it
    so if u contact ur FOC, is it okay?
  • Well, it depends on the situation.... I think in this matter maybe we should look in some books foer what H.H. think about it!

  • Hey guys,
    Sorry for starting the other thread I forgot we already have one,
    Anyways, I do not seriously believe in raping because I think you should be able to escape or do anything scream whatever but some girls just submit to the attacker, there was a story in the Bible about a beautiful rich woman that was attacked by two elders and she screamed and the two elders claimed she was bathing with a man other than her husband and God assisted her and Daniel the Prophet yelled out the truth.

    It would be terrific if someone gets the refrence..

  • I am 100% against abortion, but I can see why some people have exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother... I feel for those in this situation, but two wrongs dont make a right. If a girl was raped and doesnt want the child, give it up for adoption, it wasn't the child's fault either... in the case of incest, same thing... as for the life of the mother, try to save both lives as much as you can, indirect death of the baby is not anyone's fault, it happens sometimes... with this discussion it is important to remember that only 1% of all abortions are of rape, incest, and mother's health, the rest are for convenience...
  • [quote author=Epsaltos Michael link=board=1;threadid=222;start=15#msg5333 date=1088437971]
    Hey guys,
    Sorry for starting the other thread I forgot we already have one,
    Anyways, I do not seriously believe in raping because I think you should be able to escape or do anything scream whatever but some girls just submit to the attacker, there was a story in the Bible about a beautiful rich woman that was attacked by two elders and she screamed and the two elders claimed she was bathing with a man other than her husband and God assisted her and Daniel the Prophet yelled out the truth.

    It would be terrific if someone gets the refrence..


    Are you serious!?!?!? That might be the most outrageous thing that I have ever heard in my entire life! You MUST NOT be familiar with a little place called Central Park. Rapes happen all the time in the woods when people are out jogging... in broad day light. I find it hard to believe that those victims “just submitted”. Men have a stronger body with more muscles and they can almost always force a female into rape.

    It might be true that most abortions aren't from rape, but that's not to say that rape doesn't exist. Try to picture your mother or sister in a situation like that (God forbid) and you probably won't be so cynical and judgmental about submission.
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