Feast of Nativity



  • Dear @Amoussa01 - I still stand by my comment earlier that you are a very well learned person more than I am and that is not a false statement or sarcasm by any means. Please just research the matter and you will find that it is as clear as day..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • @ophadece,

    Thank you, but I do not claim to be a knowledgeable person or wiser than anyone else on this forum. I just would like more clarification as to what you expect me to find.
  • I call that humility Mr. @Amoussa01 - God bless you. OK, I will try to be brief because as someone whose English is not the first language, and also who has some problems in simplifying matters I am aware that you may get lost, so please let me know if you do.
    Basically, to delete 13 days from the Coptic calendar (aside from all the wrongdoings to Virgin Mary, Archangel Michael, and God, who have their monthly commemorations less often than every 13 days [try deleting in Tubah or Amshir!!!!]) will result in the apokty calculation, and hence determination of the feast of Resurrection will be ruined, because the mathematical formula will become invalid, and this will lead to contravening the Nicene canons (talk about being Orthodox). OK, what is the matter with that? Certainly we are wise enough to recalculate the apokty calculation - unfortunately not, because the problem is deeper than this. The solar year (Gregorian-wise, not Julian or Coptic) will go out of sync with the Jewish lunisolar year, and that is the whole point in determining the feast of Resurrection. This is evidenced by the Vatican church in 1582 getting rid of classic computus (based on apokty) used by the Eastern Orthodox churches with Julian calendar, and indeed making up a whole new computus irrespective of the lunisolar Jewish calendar - thereby falling into the pits of contravening the Nicene canons (i.e. at least 3 times every 19 years, if not more, their Easter falls on or before the slaughter of the lamb - in other words, twice a year) even though their primary aim (LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR - THEIR PRIMARY AIM) was to return to the calculations of the forefathers in the Nicene council, to be able to correctly calculate Easter (according to what they had thought brilliantly then - sarcasm). By the way, there was no mention of Christmas, or any other days whatsoever, these are all secondary resultants that people held on to, for not knowing the steps that had been taken. 
    This all means that the Holy Fire is not going to be present on our Feast of Resurrection day anymore! If you read a bit of history you will actually find that one of the Turkish governors in the nineteenth century mocked our Pope Botros El-Gawly, and the latter took him, and took the pope of Rome at the time (can't remember who), and showed him what happens during the feast of Resurrection. Not only that, there are two churches in Egypt, one of them archaelogical, whereby sunrays fall into the altar on two separate days (Mar Guirguis, and Archangel Michael), and in one of the two there is a third phenomenon in addition, which is that the sunrays fall in on 16th of Mesra (22nd of August). So what will happen to our forefathers honouring and venerating those saints?
    I had better not detail the wrong premises of feasts shifting and trumping each other (because this can never happen), or talk about the messing up that will happen to the katamaros and/or the synexarium (dogma/doctrine), or even discuss anything related to rites in the church, only because I am sure that you will be able to learn of these much more than what I can say very quickly.. 
    oujai qen P[c
  • edited December 2019
    @Amoussa01 none, and i mean NONE of those that are supporters of changing and looked into the offset of the Coptic and Gregorian Calendar agree with just moving the Nativity date. In doing so, you wouldn't be fixing the problem presented and that is clear, but you'd simply be making it worse. 

    So, make the change to the entire calendar or simple don't. 
  • @ophadece,

    No one is saying to remove 13 days from the calendar. I do not understand how you got to that conclusion. 

    I never said that I was in favor of the change by the way :)
  • @Amoussa01
    You probably are not aware of what people are saying.. In fact I was not referring to you at all but I fail to understand how you think the celebration ought to be on the 25th of December and not drop 13 days? Are you thinking of the Nativity feast to fall on the 16th of Kiahk until the next century and so on?
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • @ophadece,

    I understand what you are saying but I do not understand how/why you reached to your conclusion. I believe the proposal was to keep the calendar the same with regards to its days and commemorations except for one minor change. For those who would celebrate on the 25th of December, then the 29th of Kiahk would be treated like the common monthly feast. I am not totally familiar with all the details but this is what I was able to extract from others. Also, let us not forget that this is not a change that is going to be implemented universally--it is only an exception for specific congregations in the west. So let us calm ourselves down, lest we think that this is something we must all adopt. 

    The point I was trying to make all along was that the day is not what is essentially important. What is important is that we celebrate in the sacramental life of the Church. Jesus will not ask me why I celebrated on the 25th. This was a construct of the church and if the church is making the exception for others to have this change, than what difference does that make to your spirituality personally? My zeal ought to be to follow the Lord and His church as best as I can; not to claim that I know better. I am sure you are aware that we used to celebrate both the Theophany and Christmas together in the early centuries...
  • Dear @Amoussa01,
    Thank you very much for reminding me that I thought I understand better than other people. Please pray for me that God give me humility and calm, because as you may have rightly inferred, nervousness got the better of me..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • @ophadece,

    I hope you took no offense to anything I wrote. It was not meant to be directed to you personally but to all of us (myself included). Let us pray that God give us all humility, thankfulness, and joy during this time of season. 
  • @Amoussa01 amen
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • edited December 2019

    - the 13 days Fady is mentioned is what almost everyone is saying to put the calendars on the same track. There would also be a need to find a way to deal with leap years. What Fady said about the Resurrection feast day is new to me, so that's something new that I learned.

    - Making just one change for Christmas is a lot more complicated and no reason to get there.

    - the change we are talking about for pastoral needs is problematic because it doesn't follow any rules or guidelines, while, again, the bishop will do what a bishop wants. Ya3ni, are you gonna keep doing this every year forever or will some development in those congregations' life will stop it?! Will you do this until the youth are in a better spiritual level? Will you stop doing this when converts get used to celebrating the feast on January 7th?!...All of these are valid questions and many more exist of similar type-- exceptions are maid for reasons but they should be temporary. Is the temporary becoming permanent,and the exception becoming the rules?!

    If we are just talking about the "west" or the "Diaspora," then we have a small problem...how can you call us an exception or the minority while being that large in number of dioceses, churches, clergy, people and organizations? HH himself showed dislike and spoke against calling us the copts in the "land of immigration" since you already have the 4th generation existing in the states and many places in Europe. Can can you deal with us as the exception to the rule?!
  • Noooooooooooo @minatasgeel I am disappointed.. You have not read my response? I thought you had known about the feast of Resurrection when you have read my response! But still you were encouraging me all along.. Thanks for the encouragement man, I believe your wife and your father in law must have praised my work so you kept encouraging me.. That is much appreciated man..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • Lol ya Fady, your paper was completed after we got engaged and probably even married. I haven't been able to sit down and read anything that long and comprehand everything for a while. But I agree with the premise.
  • @minatasgeel, you are absolutely right, it is too long. If you do get the time one day please do read it, your opinion matters to me a great deal beyond belief and you will see for yourself the potential catastrophic results a change in the feast of Resurrection would result in..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
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